This is reassuring

[SWC75]

It’s not, for the discussion at hand though. 2012 was unique for us because the guard off the bench played as much as the starters. It was a true 3 guard rotation. Some are calling for that this year.

One could argue we should’ve did it in 2011 too. Dion was kinda under wraps and Scoop played and popped too much that year. IMO.

Kadary doesn’t have to be a world beater to play more on this team. He’s better than the other two guards at most things...including ball security.

I still say that if you've got three guards who can play, the one guy who can play both positions should be the back-up. he can get his minutes at both spots and could provide instant offense.

 

[SWC75]

As to the why: I think it is two things.
1. He knows it can be an effective defense. It is far more effective than most M2M defenses when played properly with the right personnel. We know that, we've seen it.
2. College teams have very limited practice time so committing to one thing increases the efficiency of practice time. There is also no doubt that this is true and is an absolutely reasonable approach to college basketball.

Problems:
1. This is clearly the very worst zone defense I have ever seen. Last night was laughable to an extreme degree.
2. That is likely an outcome of what was said above: there has been far less practice time than a normal season and our players, specifically the top of the zone are particularly ill suited to playing it well.
3. The fundamental problem with item two is that Buddy and JG3 are partly ill suited for the zone due to a lack of length (Joe) and a lack of athleticism (both). Both of those problems would be even more glaring in a M2M defense.

Kadary has the length and athleticism to be murderous at the top of the zone, but he doesn't have nearly the experience with it (he also left shooters wide open last night) and that problem isn't likely to be solved overnight.

All that said: the typical arguments against playing M2M are outlined above and they are reasonable, even if you don't like it. This year, since the zone is so bad, it might be reasonable to try M2M because how could it be worse. I suspect what JB would say is that using last night's game as a reason to switch is illogical because, while we might do better against a team like UVA, we might lose to other teams as a result of playing a M2M that we didn't get much practice time to refine, or matchups would be different in such a way that the zone would fare better.

I would agree partially with that. Let's face it, we can't use UVA as a litmus test to determine if our approaches are valid at this time. We just can't. They have what, 8 losses in ACC play since 2017? And hell I think two of them are to us. So NOBODY does well against them (we maybe one of the best against them in all honesty) and it is a sort fools errand to try to mold our entire approach to that particular team when we are having trouble beating teams of the ilk of Pittsburgh.

I've always said that if you can't cover people in a zone, how are you going to cover them in a man for man. Zones in both sports, (BB and FB), were invented to cover deficiencies in individual abilities.

 

[djcon57]

As to the why: I think it is two things.
1. He knows it can be an effective defense. It is far more effective than most M2M defenses when played properly with the right personnel. We know that, we've seen it.
2. College teams have very limited practice time so committing to one thing increases the efficiency of practice time. There is also no doubt that this is true and is an absolutely reasonable approach to college basketball.

Problems:
1. This is clearly the very worst zone defense I have ever seen. Last night was laughable to an extreme degree.
2. That is likely an outcome of what was said above: there has been far less practice time than a normal season and our players, specifically the top of the zone are particularly ill suited to playing it well.
3. The fundamental problem with item two is that Buddy and JG3 are partly ill suited for the zone due to a lack of length (Joe) and a lack of athleticism (both). Both of those problems would be even more glaring in a M2M defense.

Kadary has the length and athleticism to be murderous at the top of the zone, but he doesn't have nearly the experience with it (he also left shooters wide open last night) and that problem isn't likely to be solved overnight.

All that said: the typical arguments against playing M2M are outlined above and they are reasonable, even if you don't like it. This year, since the zone is so bad, it might be reasonable to try M2M because how could it be worse. I suspect what JB would say is that using last night's game as a reason to switch is illogical because, while we might do better against a team like UVA, we might lose to other teams as a result of playing a M2M that we didn't get much practice time to refine, or matchups would be different in such a way that the zone would fare better.

I would agree partially with that. Let's face it, we can't use UVA as a litmus test to determine if our approaches are valid at this time. We just can't. They have what, 8 losses in ACC play since 2017? And hell I think two of them are to us. So NOBODY does well against them (we maybe one of the best against them in all honesty) and it is a sort fools errand to try to mold our entire approach to that particular team when we are having trouble beating teams of the ilk of Pittsburgh.

you have a lot of good points in here, but heres my devils advocate vs the zone. We haven’t seen the zone be an effective lights out defense since the popularity of Steph Curry took off around 2013. You can argue that’s because of the lineup, players, etc. I just don’t know if it’s effective in 2021 as a full time defense

 

[721Comstock]

you have a lot of good points in here, but heres my devils advocate vs the zone. We haven’t seen the zone be an effective lights out defense since the popularity of Steph Curry took off around 2013. You can argue that’s because of the lineup, players, etc. I just don’t know if it’s effective in 2021 as a full time defense

Huh? I’d say it was a pretty integral part of the 2016 FF run too.

But you need plus defenders at the guard spots to make it most effective, which Silent G and Coon-dog were.

And our current starting guards most decidedly are NOT.

 

[djcon57]

Huh? I’d say it was a pretty integral part of the 2016 FF run too.

But you need plus defenders at the guard spots to make it most effective, which Silent G and Coon-dog were.

And our current starting guards most decidedly are NOT.

We were getting boat raced by UVA until we got out of the zone and got killed in the FF

Additionally we were a high seed and beat some mediocre teams along the way. I’m NOT taking anything away from that run or that team. I’m suggesting it wasn’t due to the D necessarily

Like vs Oklahoma in 2003 for example

 

[721Comstock]

We were getting boat raced by UVA until we got out of the zone

Last night? Or in 2016?

Yeah - adding the press to the zone definitely changed that game.
And again - you need plus defenders at the guard positions to make that happen.

This team can’t press a pair of pants.

Well - I bet they COULD -
but you’d need for Buddy & Joe to be cheering wildly from the bench for them to have a shot at doing so.

 

[djcon57]

Last night? Or in 2016?

Yeah - adding the press to the zone definitely changed that game.
And again - you need plus defenders at the guard positions to make that happen.

This team can’t press a pair of pants.

Well - I bet they COULD -
but you’d need for Buddy & Joe to be cheering wildly from the bench for them to have a shot at doing so.

2016.

Honestly, We didn’t “add a press to the zone”
The press was every possession.
Press, turnover, Mali.
Without the turnovers, they break the zone. They even had a wide open 3 to take the lead

 

[Brooky03]

It’s not, for the discussion at hand though. 2012 was unique for us because the guard off the bench played as much as the starters. It was a true 3 guard rotation. Some are calling for that this year.

One could argue we should’ve did it in 2011 too. Dion was kinda under wraps and Scoop played and popped too much that year. IMO.

Kadary doesn’t have to be a world beater to play more on this team. He’s better than the other two guards at most things...including ball security.

Girard: 47 eFG%, 23 AST%, 18 TOV%

Buddy season: 44eFG%,17 AST%,9 TOV%
career: 50eFG%, 14 AST%,10 TOV%

Kadary: 47 eFG%, 26 AST%, 20 TOV%


Kadary is a different flavor but same candy bar as Girard on offense. And it’s worth noting a much higher percentage of his minutes and production was against the cupcakes. His defense is better; we all agree. That can be rendered obsolete, as we saw against UVA. Not every team is UVA, though, of course.

Buddy is slumping this year but is the best shooter of the bunch based on a larger sample size. He’s more of a SG so he doesn’t have the assists but also doesn’t have the turnovers.

Upperclassmen (or experienced sophomores) do and should get the tie breaker in minutes. That means Joe and Buddy get 30 (Buddy’s guard minutes come out to 32 and change) while Kadary gets 20, roughly. 5 minutes extra a piece for the experienced guys. Pretty normal stuff.

 

[OrangeDW]

Girard: 47 eFG%, 23 AST%, 18 TOV%

Buddy season: 44eFG%,17 AST%,9 TOV%
career: 50eFG%, 14 AST%,10 TOV%

Kadary: 47 eFG%, 26 AST%, 20 TOV%


Kadary is a different flavor but same candy bar as Girard on offense. And it’s worth noting a much higher percentage of his minutes and production was against the cupcakes. His defense is better; we all agree. That can be rendered obsolete, as we saw against UVA. Not every team is UVA, though, of course.

Buddy is slumping this year but is the best shooter of the bunch based on a larger sample size. He’s more of a SG so he doesn’t have the assists but also doesn’t have the turnovers.

Upperclassmen (or experienced sophomores) do and should get the tie breaker in minutes. That means Joe and Buddy get 30 (Buddy’s guard minutes come out to 32 and change) while Kadary gets 20, roughly. 5 minutes extra a piece for the experienced guys. Pretty normal stuff.

No. Kadary gets his teammates easier shots than Girard - both in transition and the half court.

Upperclassmen that have actually accomplished something...like Scoop and Triche, is more defensible getting the tie breaker minutes. Those guys helped win 30 games the year before.

These two starters haven’t accomplished squat to earn any default minutes or loyalty. Buddy contributes nothing if he’s not hitting shots. I’m sure he will start shooting better. But we don’t need to die with him playing 35 when he’s not hitting. Joe is largely helpless on defense - especially in a zone, and should be mostly playing off the ball on offense too.

 

[Madbiker]

We were ranked in the top 15 most years for a long period of time and won big occasionally because we had great talent year after year.
Now we don't. The real question is why are we no longer are getting that same level of great talent? And we are clearly not. That is where JB and the staff are failing. And it doesn't seem it is going to change.

 

[Sherman20]

Yeah I am pretty sure less people would be complaining about Buddy if we actually used him corrrectly. JB is killing his own son because he’s turned him into an inefficient isolation player and that doesn’t play to his strengths at all. Our overall offensive plan has not evolved over time as the game has evolved.

It’s really disappointing. When you have dominant talent you can keep the offense simple and not overcomplicate things. But when you have lesser talent, you have to actually coach an offense and have some sophistication to your attack.

 

[Brooky03]

No. Kadary gets his teammates easier shots than Girard - both in transition and the half court.

Upperclassmen that have actually accomplished something...like Scoop and Triche, is more defensible getting the tie breaker minutes. Those guys helped win 30 games the year before.

These two starters haven’t accomplished squat to earn any default minutes or loyalty. Buddy contributes nothing if he’s not getting shots. Joe is largely helpless on defense - especially in a zone, and should be mostly playing off the ball on offense too.

Disagree about Kadary getting everyone easier shots. Maybe that’s how it looks but Girard isn’t getting assists just swinging the ball around the perimeter.

Scoop and Triche had much more talent around them than Joe and Buddy did or will have, including actual Centers. I’m not going to hold that against Joe and Buddy.

 

[OrangeDW]

Disagree about Kadary getting everyone easier shots. Maybe that’s how it looks but Girard isn’t getting assists just swinging the ball around the perimeter.

Scoop and Triche had much more talent around them than Joe and Buddy did or will have, including actual Centers. I’m not going to hold that against Joe and Buddy.

I disagree on your first point.

Scoop and Triche both had more talent around them and also had more talent themselves.

 

[Orangeman]

Yes, triangle and two. Play Hauser and Murphy and match up with the other three. They wouldn’t have scored 80 points playing it tonight.

No joke I actually thought this last night. Would assuage the Coach's need to play zone, and cover the players that can actually shoot. Good call

 

[Cuse1055]

I’m a little worried about Woody’s future based on what I saw today. I know reading into social media posts can be pointless (see: Dior) but I couldn’t help but notice a couple people retweet it today. Hopefully it means nothing.

 

[UD1954]

No size in the paint and guards who can't guard anybody ...of course Boehiem is gonna say we have to out score teams... it's the only way he can justify the minutes Buddy plays with floor spacing.

 

[Toga]

JOE GIRARD SINGLEHANDLEY CLOSED DOWN THE CHARLOTTESVILLE CHIC FIL A

The Chick-fil-a is officially closed!

 

[Toga]

Jimmy - That face shield. What up?

 

[Scooch]

As to the why: I think it is two things.
1. He knows it can be an effective defense. It is far more effective than most M2M defenses when played properly with the right personnel. We know that, we've seen it.
2. College teams have very limited practice time so committing to one thing increases the efficiency of practice time. There is also no doubt that this is true and is an absolutely reasonable approach to college basketball.

Problems:
1. This is clearly the very worst zone defense I have ever seen. Last night was laughable to an extreme degree.
2. That is likely an outcome of what was said above: there has been far less practice time than a normal season and our players, specifically the top of the zone are particularly ill suited to playing it well.
3. The fundamental problem with item two is that Buddy and JG3 are partly ill suited for the zone due to a lack of length (Joe) and a lack of athleticism (both). Both of those problems would be even more glaring in a M2M defense.

Kadary has the length and athleticism to be murderous at the top of the zone, but he doesn't have nearly the experience with it (he also left shooters wide open last night) and that problem isn't likely to be solved overnight.

All that said: the typical arguments against playing M2M are outlined above and they are reasonable, even if you don't like it. This year, since the zone is so bad, it might be reasonable to try M2M because how could it be worse. I suspect what JB would say is that using last night's game as a reason to switch is illogical because, while we might do better against a team like UVA, we might lose to other teams as a result of playing a M2M that we didn't get much practice time to refine, or matchups would be different in such a way that the zone would fare better.

I would agree partially with that. Let's face it, we can't use UVA as a litmus test to determine if our approaches are valid at this time. We just can't. They have what, 8 losses in ACC play since 2017? And hell I think two of them are to us. So NOBODY does well against them (we maybe one of the best against them in all honesty) and it is a sort fools errand to try to mold our entire approach to that particular team when we are having trouble beating teams of the ilk of Pittsburgh.

This is a great post. I tend to subscribe to the theory that any defense, played well, can be effective. And any defense, played poorly, will not. So I’m not an anti-zone guy at all.

However, the one thing that makes me crazy is how too often our reliance on the zone makes us passive, and allows our opponents to dictate tempo and pace. I wish we would be much more proactive about pressing out of the zone, not just wait til we’re desperate and down double-digits late in the second half. I also wish we’d look to get out in transition more offensively. The zone seems to affect that aspect of our O, we get sleepy and play at a snails pace at times.

 

[jdubs30]

I’m a little worried about Woody’s future based on what I saw today. I know reading into social media posts can be pointless (see: Dior) but I couldn’t help but notice a couple people retweet it today. Hopefully it means nothing.

What was posted?

 

[Cuse1055]

What was posted?

Something about others wanting him to fall but he’ll never sell his soul.

 

[MikeSU02]

Girard: 47 eFG%, 23 AST%, 18 TOV%

Buddy season: 44eFG%,17 AST%,9 TOV%
career: 50eFG%, 14 AST%,10 TOV%

Kadary: 47 eFG%, 26 AST%, 20 TOV%


Kadary is a different flavor but same candy bar as Girard on offense. And it’s worth noting a much higher percentage of his minutes and production was against the cupcakes. His defense is better; we all agree. That can be rendered obsolete, as we saw against UVA. Not every team is UVA, though, of course.

Buddy is slumping this year but is the best shooter of the bunch based on a larger sample size. He’s more of a SG so he doesn’t have the assists but also doesn’t have the turnovers.

Upperclassmen (or experienced sophomores) do and should get the tie breaker in minutes. That means Joe and Buddy get 30 (Buddy’s guard minutes come out to 32 and change) while Kadary gets 20, roughly. 5 minutes extra a piece for the experienced guys. Pretty normal stuff.

Why are you using TOV%s between two guys that have to be primary ball handlers and a SG?

 

[Brooky03]

Why are you using TOV%s between two guys that have to be primary ball handlers and a SG?

If you read the part below the stats, you’d see that I noted that.

 

[MikeSU02]

If you read the part below the stats, you’d see that I noted that.

I get that, but why even list that? Or the assist%, that's not fair to Buddy. Those stats aren't fair to use for any of those guys.

If you think Buddy is a better choice, lean on his previous play.

I want to be clear, Kadary and JGIII are vastly different players and there are plenty of stats that bear that out.

I'm not sure why you're choosing the stats you are or what the argument is in the end. If you want Buddy to play, you are going to get your wish - JB isn't changing the lineup.

Here's the deal, if you and JB are right, it will result in a bunch of wins and a great success of a seasons. We all win.

 

[Brooky03]

I get that, but why even list that? Or the assist%, that's not fair to Buddy. Those stats aren't fair to use for any of those guys.

If you think Buddy is a better choice, lean on his previous play.

I want to be clear, Kadary and JGIII are vastly different players and there are plenty of stats that bear that out.

I'm not sure why you're choosing the stats you are or what the argument is in the end. If you want Buddy to play, you are going to get your wish - JB isn't changing the lineup.

Here's the deal, if you and JB are right, it will result in a bunch of wins and a great success of a seasons. We all win.

Scoring efficiency, assists, turnovers are the 3 primary stats that matter for guards. I think it’s fair to use those as a measuring stick. It’s a simple way to show that there isn’t some big leap in production with Kadary.

I get that the arguments are these guys should basically be in an equal time share and I ended it by saying that since they’re not that different, I prefer to have the experience on the court a little more (30, 30, 20 vs. 28, 27, 27). Kadary has mostly beaten up on midmajors and not done a lot with his minutes against the big boys (VT and their lack of defense being the exception).

Kadary beats both of those guys on the defensive end. Maybe an extra 7 minutes per game for him will help us win because of the defensive impact. So far, I don’t think there has been a game in which more minutes for Kadary would have improved the outcome.