This is way more difficult than most think

[Scooch]

Is that something you suspect, or something you know?

Suspect. I know nothing. I thought my posting history made that abundantly clear.

 

[BKCuse]

It all boils down to Mark Coyle alone with his thoughts about Cuse football in 2016.

Does he want fresh energy with a new coach he picks or does he want Gross' guy coming off back to back 3 win seasons?

 

[CuseOnly]

Taking a different perspective...

If SS were let go tomorrow, how many programs anywhere in D1 would be knocking on his door as a potential HC? There are going to a lot of openings at the schools that are about to lose their HCs to bigger programs. I can not see any of them going after SS based on what he has produced. Of course, I have no way of knowing that will be the case, and of course SS has way more going for him than his W-L record.

The point is, how much more risk is there in going with a new HC relative to keeping a HC who might not be the choice of anyone else making a hire?

I think there are some MAC and Sun Belt schools that would be very interested in him being their HC.

 

[CuseOnly]

Back in 2003, the Red Sox were playing the Yankees in Game 7 of the ALCS. Pedro Martinez had pitched well for 7 innings and was clearly gassed, as was obvious to anyone who followed the Red Sox. Grady Little inexplicably left Pedro Martinez in the game, and the lead, and ultimately the game, was lost.

I, and millions of other Red Sox fans, were screaming at the screen, incredulous at what a stupid decision leaving Martinez in was. It was indefensible at the time, and even a decade later, remains indefensible.

Somewhere, there was a Red Sox fan version of bees saying, "well, none of you are MLB managers. Who are you to question a move like this? Grady Little knows more about baseball than anyone here." Which, of course, is true. Grady Little does know more about baseball. That doesn't insulate him from making a bad decision.


So yes - if Coyle doesn't see what is blindingly obvious to the vast, vast, vast majority of Syracuse football fans, and retains Shafer - I will most certainly say that he is making a major mistake, and will lose a lot of confidence in his competency as an AD. Much as I did for Grady Little (who, it should be noted, lost his job for that massive lapse of judgment.)

I will however give Coyle a mulligan if he keeps Shafer another year and we have to play all away games because of the Dome refurbish.

I will be buying a camper and driving to the Ralph each Friday night.

 

[TheCusian]

I think there are some MAC and Sun Belt schools that would be very interested in him being their HC.

He's going to get a P5 DC job pretty quickly.

 

[Crusty]

He's going to get a P5 DC job pretty quickly.

Hello Big 12!

 

[IthacaBarrel]

He's going to get a P5 DC job pretty quickly.

Without a doubt. He's a good coach

 

[SoBeCuse]

we lack an oline and a #1 Wr. no offense is going to work without both no matter how much millhouse says we should just pass pass pass.. did you see anyone open yesterday? estime is fine in space, but below avg hands and runs horrible routes. ish has decent hands but cant get off the line, our RB are ok but the oline creates no space so we have to run crazy plays just to try and get a decent run, but any time the D thinks the run is coming we are dead. this is the worst oline in years. phillips is good in space too , but drops half the passes, big drop yesterday led to a FG and not a 14-7 lead.


but really the game turned at 10-7 but not on the pick, it was the play before. we were moving it a bit and phillips had a nice gain, but as our RBs have shown they have HS instincts. he should have finished the play for the first down but tried to undercut the play and left us in 2nd down and the QB made a poor decision on the out route. . still there is no reason for a DB to be jumping that route except he wasnt scared of us going deep at all.

we cant get behind anyone without a complete breakdown, we need speed at WR in the worst way

Agreed. Our skill position talent is overrated. Their pretty average collectively. We can hang in there for a half but that's about it. Or teams just completely overlook us like LSU did and create some fools gold.

 

[SUbear]

SU has a new chancellor and a new AD. I have no idea what they are thinking and neither do you.

Never said I did. They are going to have to prove it to me going forward that is all. Just removed my orange tinted glasses thats all.

 

[SWC75]

I watched the game for a second time early this morning and came away with these thoughts. First of all LV has much better talent across the board than we do. It is obvious to see that they are in the top 5 teams in the entire ACC not just our division as they are loaded. Bobby hate him or not is a great coach. There is not doubt that he is also top 5 in the ACC so getting our arses handed to us didnt surprise me. Still if ED doesnt throw the six pick i think that we hang with these guys and possibly win. MO is huge with young kids and another score at that point was what we needed. Why the heck Lester called an out pattern with 2nd and 1 is beyond me. Get the first down and run clock doing so by running the ball. After that pick the team just went flat you could see it on the sideline shots and you could see it in the effort. They simply had the wind knocked out of them almost like oh sh... t here we go again.

As to our coaching i stand by what i have posted before. HCSS and his guys know how to coach D. They are simply out gunned. Next year as these kids grow up it will be a much different story. As to Lester i think it might be some of the same. He is playing with true frosh at key positions and we are thin. I know that i keep bitching about the Oline but they are pathetic. WR is weak as Bris is playing out of position and Ish has nobody to take the pressure off. Not sure why we dont give Custis a go as he can match up physically with anyone on any team. Head scratcher for sure.

Now onto the big picture. I believe that the decision to keep Shafer is beyond huge. Bees posted that we cant make a move just to make a move and he is 1000% correct. Change for change sake is never a good thing. It might feel good for a season but long term if Coyle doesnt get this right it is going to set up back 5 years.

Unless the team just gives up on HCSS i stand by my position that he should be given one more year as well as a public statement regarding an extension. The extension can be 1 year with a very low buyout say 250-500k max. In addition if im Coyle i dont place any demands on Shafer relative to replacing coaches. Let him make his own bed. If he wants to retain the band even though Adam and Reed in my opinion should be let go so be it. I know that everyone wants a public hanging and i agree that it is warranted. But again for the programs sake i believe that after next year we will be in much better strategic position to make that move. Kids are not going to transfer after their Soph year, we keep this class together, we dont eat a buyout and most importantly Coyle has time to truly plan and make a solid pick. There are just too many better jobs available this year and i dont want to make change for change sake.

I hope that the team pulls off a miracle and plays Clemson tough, as well as wins the last two as it will make everything easier for Coyle.

Go Orange!!

There are a lot of things I like about Shafer: His intense personality, his emphasis on football as part of the learning experience, his pedigree with the Harbaughs and previous involvement with rebuilding programs, his aggressive defensive style, etc. There are things I don't like. The wild swings of his first year, with 7 wins and a bowl victory but some horrendous defeats. The dismal losing streaks these last years, with the team getting worse rather than better as the season progresses. I agree that he talks a tough game but his willingness to surrender the ball to the opposition seems to contradict his apparent attitude. His decisions about clock management seem strange and the inadequate and contradictory statements he and his coaches have made about those decisions are concerning.

All Syracuse coaches are learning on the job. They've either never been head coaches before or never been head coaches at this level. The same thing is true of most of their staff. Coach P and, yes Coach Mac also made some strange decisions and said some strange things about them. They were criticized for it but they coached here for 10 and 14 seasons because they had, (or eventually had) the talent available to win games anyway. I think the talent level has been Shafer's biggest problem. it was mediocre, at best to begin with but he was able to win a bowl game with it. He got wiped out by injuries last year and this year, it's all freshmen and sophomores with little depth because his predecessor got bored with recruiting and then left in the middle of a recruiting season: we just don't have that many decent juniors and seniors and even the ones we do have are nothing special, (see the offensive line).

I do think that many of the freshmen and sophomores are special, or have a chance to be, and that they will be joined by more such players in the coming class. I'd like Shafer to have a chance to coach the players he and his staff have recruited when they are juniors and seniors and are supported by a couple more such classes. I also abhor the thought of ripping it all up and starting all over gain for the 4th time in a dozen seasons. That bothers me far more than keeping on a guy who may not be "the guy" for another year or two. And I think looking for a new coach this year when so many better jobs are open is folly.

I'd like to give Shafer two more years but am hoping for at least one more. I realize as the losses pile up, that gets less and less likely.

In the end, it's not up to us. It's up to Mark Coyle. I don't think any of us can claim to know what he is thinking or will do.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

There are a lot of things I like about Shafer: His intense personality, his emphasis on football as part of the learning experience, his pedigree with the Harbaughs and previous involvement with rebuilding programs, his aggressive defensive style, etc. There are things I don't like. The wild swings of his first year, with 7 wins and a bowl victory but some horrendous defeats. The dismal losing streaks these last years, with the team getting worse rather than better as the season progresses. I agree that he talks a tough game but his willingness to surrender the ball to the opposition seems to contradict his apparent attitude. His decisions about clock management seem strange and the inadequate and contradictory statements he and his coaches have made about those decisions are concerning.

All Syracuse coaches are learning on the job. They've either never been head coaches before or never been head coaches at this level. The same thing is true of most of their staff. Coach P and, yes Coach Mac also made some strange decisions and said some strange things about them. They were criticized for it but they coached here for 10 and 14 seasons because they had, (or eventually had) the talent available to win games anyway. I think the talent level has been Shafer's biggest problem. it was mediocre, at best to begin with but he was able to win a bowl game with it. He got wiped out by injuries last year and this year, it's all freshmen and sophomores with little depth because his predecessor got bored with recruiting and then left in the middle of a recruiting season: we just don't have that many decent juniors and seniors and even the ones we do have are nothing special, (see the offensive line).

I do think that many of the freshmen and sophomores are special, or have a chance to be, and that they will be joined by more such players in the coming class. I'd like Shafer to have a chance to coach the players he and his staff have recruited when they are juniors and seniors and are supported by a couple more such classes. I also abhor the thought of ripping it all up and starting all over gain for the 4th time in a dozen seasons. That bothers me far more than keeping on a guy who may not be "the guy" for another year or two. And I think looking for a new coach this year when so many better jobs are open is folly.

I'd like to give Shafer two more years but am hoping for at least one more. I realize as the losses pile up, that gets less and less likely.

In the end, it's not up to us. It's up to Mark Coyle. I don't think any of us can claim to know what he is thinking or will do.

Marrone got bored with recruiting? The class he had put together before he left had some real talent in it and then lost a few of them after he left. The class was not much different than what Shafer has brought in. The excuses for Shafer will never end. Shafer was here then too, did he get tired of recruiting on the D side? I am sure Shafer thought if Marrone left he may be in line for the SU job. Shafer has recruited at the bottom of the ACC for 2 years as well. At least the former coach, could coach that talent up. Again, if people are waiting for elite talent at Syracuse, it will never happen. Could we get middle of the road ACC talent? sure but stop with excuses for Shafer. My god.

 

[GoSU96]

Marrone got bored with recruiting? The class he had put together before he left had some real talent in it and then lost a few of them after he left. The class was not much different than what Shafer has brought in. The excuses for Shafer will never end. Shafer was here then too, did he get retired of recruiting on the D side? I am sure Shafer thought if Marrone left he may be in line for the SU job. Shafer has recruited at the bottom of the ACC for 2 years as well. At least the former coach, could coach that talent up. Again, if people are waiting for elite talent at Syracuse, it will never happen. Could we get middle of the road ACC talent? sure but stop with excuses for Shafer. My god.

Yep

 

[orangenirvana]

I think the talent level has been Shafer's biggest problem. it was mediocre, at best to begin with but he was able to win a bowl game with it. He got wiped out by injuries last year and this year, it's all freshmen and sophomores with little depth because his predecessor got bored with recruiting and then left in the middle of a recruiting season: we just don't have that many decent juniors and seniors and even the ones we do have are nothing special, (see the offensive line).

So this is what the pro-Shafer crowd is clutching to? Marrone left the cupboard bare.

We've been through that before and it's so weak.

It doesn't excuse the horrible game management and the lack of player development. Young, talented players are supposed to get better over the course of a season - not worse.

And say what you will about the talent level of the upperclassmen. But this OLine has been solid according to ProFootballFocus. And it's not going to be better in 2016 just because those seniors are going to be replaced.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2015/10/syracuse_football_offensive_line_1.html

On Friday, Pro Football Focus passed along player grades from the Orange's 44-38 triple-overtime loss to Virginia last week.

The highest-performing offensive unit for SU? The line.

Redshirt junior right tackle Omari Palmer (+3.2), redshirt senior left guard Nick Robinson (+2.7) and redshirt senior left tackle Ivan Foy (+1.5) turned in the three best grades on the Syracuse offense. The group as a whole shined in pass blocking, despite freshman quarterback Eric Dungey taking three sacks, and was solid in the run game.

 

[Millhouse]

So this is what the pro-Shafer crowd is clutching to? Marrone left the cupboard bare.

We've been through that before and it's so weak.

It doesn't excuse the horrible game management and the lack of player development. Young, talented players are supposed to get better over the course of a season - not worse.

And say what you will about the talent level of the upperclassmen. But this OLine has been solid according to ProFootballFocus. And it's not going to be better in 2016 just because those seniors are going to be replaced.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2015/10/syracuse_football_offensive_line_1.html

On Friday, Pro Football Focus passed along player grades from the Orange's 44-38 triple-overtime loss to Virginia last week.

The highest-performing offensive unit for SU? The line.

Redshirt junior right tackle Omari Palmer (+3.2), redshirt senior left guard Nick Robinson (+2.7) and redshirt senior left tackle Ivan Foy (+1.5) turned in the three best grades on the Syracuse offense. The group as a whole shined in pass blocking, despite freshman quarterback Eric Dungey taking three sacks, and was solid in the run game.

i'm sure you noticed some of the weird PFF grades for bills games this year - i don't know how seriously we should take those grades - if they're getting NFL games wrong, who are they putting on Syracuse detail.

 

[TheCusian]

So this is what the pro-Shafer crowd is clutching to? Marrone left the cupboard bare.

We've been through that before and it's so weak.

It doesn't excuse the horrible game management and the lack of player development. Young, talented players are supposed to get better over the course of a season - not worse.

And say what you will about the talent level of the upperclassmen. But this OLine has been solid according to ProFootballFocus. And it's not going to be better in 2016 just because those seniors are going to be replaced.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2015/10/syracuse_football_offensive_line_1.html

On Friday, Pro Football Focus passed along player grades from the Orange's 44-38 triple-overtime loss to Virginia last week.

The highest-performing offensive unit for SU? The line.

Redshirt junior right tackle Omari Palmer (+3.2), redshirt senior left guard Nick Robinson (+2.7) and redshirt senior left tackle Ivan Foy (+1.5) turned in the three best grades on the Syracuse offense. The group as a whole shined in pass blocking, despite freshman quarterback Eric Dungey taking three sacks, and was solid in the run game.

It's really not weak. I'm reformed pro-shafer poster and battled on those lines for weeks.

Bottom line?

You can have a mix of "marrone left us with no offensive skill players" and "Shafer and Lester aren't the answer" - they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Willy75]

It's really not weak. I'm reformed pro-shafer poster and battled on those lines for weeks.

Bottom line?

You can have a mix of "marrone left us with no offensive skill players" and "Shafer and Lester aren't the answer" - they are not mutually exclusive.

But the former just isn't true; e.g. J. Smith and PTG.

 

[Alsacs]

Jimbo Fisher, Dabo Swinney, Dave Doeren, Bobby Petrino, Steve Addazio, Pat Narduzzi would love if we gave Scott Shafer two more years.
I can't believe people are going with intensity and cupboard bare excuse. If SS is not a HC. He is a good man who should be a DC at the P5 level. Syracuse made rush hire after Marrone left. He shouldn't get 5 years when Marrone was told he had to win in year 4 and Marrone took over a worse situation.
We are in a business to win games. We have gotten worse. Scott Shafer has multiple 5 game losing streaks. In our last 16 games against P5 teams were are 2-14. Those 2 wins are against Wake Forest. That is Greg Robinson bad. We are going to backwards. We need Change not more of the same.

 

[TheCusian]

But the former just isn't true; e.g. J. Smith and PTG.

And QB? WR?

He left us a running game and that's why we won anything at all in 2013. I'm convinced Marrone took a look at the cupboard before interviewing for NFL gigs.

 

[TheCusian]

Jimbo Fisher, Dabo Swinney, Dave Doeren, Bobby Petrino, Steve Addazio, Pat Narduzzi would love if we gave Scott Shafer two more years. I can't believe people are going with intensity and cupboard bare excuse. If SS is not a HC. He is a good man who should be a DC at the P5 level. Syracuse made rush hire after Marrone left. He shouldn't get 5 years when Marrone was told he had to win in year 4 and Marrone took over a worse situation. We are in a business to win games. We have gotten worse. Scott Shafer has multiple 5 game losing streaks. In our last 16 games against P5 teams were are 2-14. Those 2 wins are against Wake Forest. That is Greg Robinson bad. We are going to backwards. We need Change not more of the same.

The contents of the cupboard and SS coaching chops can both be awful.

 

[Alsacs]

The contents of the cupboard and SS coaching chops can both be awful.

How many years post-DM is DM responsible for the cupboard being bare? 2013 the team was not bare. 2014, we didn't invite Smith back for another year I have been told and the D was good. If the team had a top 90 offense we likely win 3 more games. That falls on coaching as I think we had top 90 TALENT. 2015 SS has to own it.

 

[Statesman1]

IMO, in college football the talent is the biggest factor in the success of the program over coaching. With the limitations in practice time/classes there's a limited opportunity to coach up players. Schools like GT or Oregon have had continuity in running their oddball systems where that has been the opposite here at SU. While blaming the cupboard for being bare is an accurate statement, it does not absolve SS. The primary job for the coaching staff is to recruit, plain and simple. SS had his hand in recruiting as DC, and certainly does as the head man. Unfortunately, our talent level is what it is relative to our peers, which is to say bottom of the league. Until that changes, we're stuck with 3 win seasons. If I'm the AD, unless I see something very positive in the staff I inherited, I'm sinking or swimming with my own crew. Not sure from the outside what you can hang your hat on about SS other than he appears to be a genuinely nice man. But we all know how much that counts at this level at the end of the day.

 

[orangepassion]

There are a lot of things I like about Shafer: His intense personality, his emphasis on football as part of the learning experience, his pedigree with the Harbaughs and previous involvement with rebuilding programs, his aggressive defensive style, etc. There are things I don't like. The wild swings of his first year, with 7 wins and a bowl victory but some horrendous defeats. The dismal losing streaks these last years, with the team getting worse rather than better as the season progresses. I agree that he talks a tough game but his willingness to surrender the ball to the opposition seems to contradict his apparent attitude. His decisions about clock management seem strange and the inadequate and contradictory statements he and his coaches have made about those decisions are concerning.

All Syracuse coaches are learning on the job. They've either never been head coaches before or never been head coaches at this level. The same thing is true of most of their staff. Coach P and, yes Coach Mac also made some strange decisions and said some strange things about them. They were criticized for it but they coached here for 10 and 14 seasons because they had, (or eventually had) the talent available to win games anyway. I think the talent level has been Shafer's biggest problem. it was mediocre, at best to begin with but he was able to win a bowl game with it. He got wiped out by injuries last year and this year, it's all freshmen and sophomores with little depth because his predecessor got bored with recruiting and then left in the middle of a recruiting season: we just don't have that many decent juniors and seniors and even the ones we do have are nothing special, (see the offensive line).

I do think that many of the freshmen and sophomores are special, or have a chance to be, and that they will be joined by more such players in the coming class. I'd like Shafer to have a chance to coach the players he and his staff have recruited when they are juniors and seniors and are supported by a couple more such classes. I also abhor the thought of ripping it all up and starting all over gain for the 4th time in a dozen seasons. That bothers me far more than keeping on a guy who may not be "the guy" for another year or two. And I think looking for a new coach this year when so many better jobs are open is folly.

I'd like to give Shafer two more years but am hoping for at least one more. I realize as the losses pile up, that gets less and less likely.

In the end, it's not up to us. It's up to Mark Coyle. I don't think any of us can claim to know what he is thinking or will do.

I think you're overrating our talent. We do have some decent young talent, but I don't know how much more we're going to get out of our most important one (Dungey) due to injuries. I don't see much in the incoming class that excites me. Who excites you besides Moe Neal?

 

[Crusty]

Confident like the last 3 times? My point was simply that stats say there's many more misses than hits.

I wonder if that is universally true or if the same bad shots keep missing.
If you use cheap equipment and never adjust the site, I am fairly certain you will keep missing.

In the past decade CFB has seen the emergence of dozens of programs making it to the top 25.

They virtually all did it with new staffs.

There is literally no valid argument for status quo at this point. If we miss, so be it, reload and fire again. What other choice is there?