This one's on the staff

[Townie72]

Zelda, if your friends don't think JB is a good coach, than you might want to get a whole new set of friends.

For your own good, that is. Stupidity may be contagious.

 

[Oráiste]

This one's on the staff
JB was out-coached and made no noticeable 2nd half adjustments.

why do I get the feeling that you have this post or something similar written & ready to go at the beginning of every game?

 

[Townie72]

"• I said people I speak to, including myself, respect what JB has done. But we can also be critical. Personally, I think that represents a more intelligent and informed perspective than people who worship at his feet and can't see or acknowledge that he isn't without faults. But, hey, to each his own. Which is also MY POINT."

That sounds like a JB "hater?" Seriously? Do you have to be 100% along the linear scale to 'favor' something? Or is it really, literally a binary matter for you?

Sounds like mouthbreather politics: "don't talk bad bout are [sic] president. He's are president. USA!" — pre "Odumbo," of course...

And yes, I'd like to know your thoughts about Practice. "You talking bout PRACTICE?" Yes. I'd like to know. Those were questions, not accusations.

Actually I don't think you can respect what JB has done and yet be constantly critical. I think the two are mutually exclusive.

Of course, if you think that the job of being President of 300 million increasingly divided Americans is at the same difficulty level as being the SU BB coach, than you have problems with any kind of logic.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

So you are saying there is a silent majority of Syracuse Basketball fans that don't like Jim Boeheim and are just afraid to vocalize it? I'm not arguing with you or trying to be condescending. I just want to understand.

Hey.
I'm saying that among the maybe six alums that I speak to/have spoken to about SU basketball at any significant length, consistently over the years, one has been a staunch JB critic from the getgo. We used to have arguments in Lawrinson where I was defending JB... And the others are more moderate—respectful of certain accomplishments, critical of certain specific characteristics/styles of play, things he does or says, etc. No one says the wins don't matter. None of us agree that the sanctions were commensurate with the offenses, and yet we still don't insist the NCAA has a vendetta against us... Some don't like zone, some don't mind it, but would still prefer that we were a m2m team primarily... etc, etc. A mixed bag of opinions, but with common ground. I honestly don't know anyone who thinks he's a 'top 5' coach, and then there's no consensus on where we would put him in the list of the next 15. I don't think any of us consider him elite, but we've had this specific discussion, and "elite" was characterized as pretty much a top5 thing. But this goes back 30 years, so who knows how many coaches have been in and out of that consideration. Which leads us to something we agree on, that over 30 years, the (relative) consistency and the pretty consistent 'relevancy' are valued.

What's interesting is if you speak to the most knowledgeable college ball fans who AREN'T SU loyalists, and get their unfiltered opinions on JB, you get what I just wrote above... At least, in my experience. But I don't go into those types of conversations indicating a lean in one particular direction.

Sorry - almost ignored your other question. Yes, among those who had been inclined to participate in forums, they have said they dropped out because if you write anything critical, no matter how sound the logic or foundation, the criticism of the criticism is always louder/more vehement than the support. Or, that it's just not an interesting discussion if you can comfortably only express/recognize only one side of things... Not that there aren't criticisms, but, for example, one person said something like, 'if you criticize a thing, the result will be that YOU are criticized, not the critique.' He said it better, but I don't remember it exactly. But, he's the one who introduced me to SonsOfSamHorn, where the discussion is at such a high level that all that matters is the actual argument.

 

[NineOneSeven]

"• I said people I speak to, including myself, respect what JB has done. But we can also be critical. Personally, I think that represents a more intelligent and informed perspective than people who worship at his feet and can't see or acknowledge that he isn't without faults. But, hey, to each his own. Which is also MY POINT."

That sounds like a JB "hater?" Seriously? Do you have to be 100% along the linear scale to 'favor' something? Or is it really, literally a binary matter for you?

Sounds like mouthbreather politics: "don't talk bad bout are [sic] president. He's are president. USA!" — pre "Odumbo," of course...

And yes, I'd like to know your thoughts about Practice. "You talking bout PRACTICE?" Yes. I'd like to know. Those were questions, not accusations.

You won't get a fair reply to any of your points. Not from the people you're talking to. Stop the actual discussion you hater.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Actually I don't think you can respect what JB has done and yet be constantly critical. I think the two are mutually exclusive.

Of course, if you think that the job of being President of 300 million increasingly divided Americans is at the same difficulty level as being the US BB coach, than you have problems with any kind of logic.

Are you a real person?

 

[pearl31]

all behold the magnificent strawmen on display!

 

[Townie72]

Are you a real person?

I guess this question makes sense to you. But to few others, I suspect.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Actually I don't think you can respect what JB has done and yet be constantly critical. I think the two are mutually exclusive.

Of course, if you think that the job of being President of 300 million increasingly divided Americans is at the same difficulty level as being the US BB coach, than you have problems with any kind of logic.

Wow. On both.
Firstly, the characterization of "constantly" critical is ridiculous. I don't think I've ever started a thread criticizing JB or the staff. That's never been my thing. So, then we would have to move to what your concept of "constant" is. i wouldn't say I'm constantly critical. But what I'm critical of IS constant. I hope you can reconcile that. I don't think you can, given your first statement. I don't understand how you can't allow a person to have a more nuanced set of feelings about a matter. There isn't anyhing I can think of that I can't see two sides on. It scares me when people can't do that.

The political thing... I characterized that as "mouthbreather logic." So, No, I don't see that as the same thing. The point was that the mouthbreather would.

 

[br801]

all behold the magnificent strawmen on display!

Damn wiseass. Try contributing something substantive once in a while, like me.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Zelda, if your friends don't think JB is a good coach, than you might want to get a whole new set of friends.

For your own good, that is. Stupidity may be contagious.

Man alive. Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. And you're calling us/them "stupid?" Where, oh where, did you see it written that "JB is not a GOOD COACH?" My god, the simplemindedness of that 'accusation...'

For the record, and to soothe your weary soul: we would all agree JB is a xgood coach. Happy Pappy?

 

[NineOneSeven]

I guess this question makes sense to you. But to few others, I suspect.

More than you realize, friend.

 

[OttoMets]

Man alive. Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. And you're calling us/them "stupid?" Where, oh where, did you see it written that "JB is not a GOOD COACH?" My god, the simplemindedness of that 'accusation...'

For the record, and to soothe your weary soul: we would all agree JB is a xgood coach. Happy Pappy?

I think they've made your point better than you could have done yourself.

You: English.
Them: Strawman.

Which is what a lot of thoughtful criticism of strategy devolves into on this board. Apologists won't even dignify it by reading it; they'll just regurgitate the same weird fallacies and cliches.

 

[SoBeCuse]

What's the big deal here? I criticize the coach and staff all the time especially about lack of sound offensive concepts, instruction of fundamentals, etc. I mean one is either blind or chooses not to acknowledge these issues which by now are factual.

Do I think JB is a good coach? Yes of course. The proof is in the pudding and his long term track record and tenure is incredible. Not to mention the amazing work he does off the court with community service, fundraising, coaches vs cancer, etc. The two are not mutually exclusive. Everybody in life is criticized and critiqued daily. It's how the world works, duh, regardless of being the head of a big time college hoops program, a chef, or a steel mill worker. Nobody, including the mighty JB is exempt from criticism.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I could care less what JB says in the preseason.

one thing he does do, is use the press conference as a way to poke and prod his players. some need fluff, some need to be told they suck. guess he thought chukwu needed fluff.

which is a real bad sign, because now we have a soft basketball player with a soft head.

I only care with how many wins he gives me in-season. and he gives me a shitload.

the 'zone v man', 'how do we practice' argument??

seriously??

what did dash say??...a NC, 4 other Final Fours, including last year AND a 40+ year track record of unfreakinbelievable success??

hate to break it to you Zelda, but your little army of JB haters, yeah...youre going to the Front...STAT.

Why do people throw these numbers out and act like they are just amazing!

How about these numbers - At Duke, Krzyzewski has led the Blue Devils to five NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 12 ACC regular season titles, and 13 ACC Tournament championships.

40 years is a long time. I wish there had been more success, but let's not all act like JB is infallible or the best in the business.

Hell, Roy Williams, who I don't think is actually a great coach has 2 titles, 8 final fours, 7 ACC regular season titles, 3 ACC tourney titles, 3 big 12 tourney titles.

JB has done amazing things for the program, but could he have had more success of the years? Possibly.

 

[We Are Syracuse]

What's the big deal here? I criticize the coach and staff all the time especially about lack of sound offensive concepts, instruction of fundamentals, etc. I mean one is either blind or chooses not to acknowledge these issues which by now are factual.

Do I think JB is a good coach? Yes of course. The proof is in the pudding and his long term track record and tenure is incredible. Not to mention the amazing work he does off the court with community service, fundraising, coaches vs cancer, etc. The two are not mutually exclusive. Everybody in life is criticized and critiqued daily. It's how the world works, duh, regardless of being the head of a big time college hoops program, a chef, or a steel mill worker. Nobody, including the mighty JB is exempt from criticism.

I agree with TrueBlue. I LOVE Cuse basketball. Dad played football here and I was born in Cicero. The Boeheim crazies here get so defensive here when you put blatant problems of his coaching. When you rank 100th+ in the half court of all of college basketball for basically the past 5 years in the half court with the prominent players he has had in those years, something is wrong. No one is saying Boeheim hasn't been great- but he has BLATANT problems coaching in the half court offensively. If you do not see that, then YIKES.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I agree with TrueBlue. I LOVE Cuse basketball. Dad played football here and I was born in Cicero. The Boeheim crazies here get so defensive here when you put blatant problems of his coaching. When you rank 100th+ in the half court of all of college basketball for basically the past 5 years in the half court with the prominent players he has had in those years, something is wrong. No one is saying Boeheim hasn't been great- but he has BLATANT problems coaching in the half court offensively. If you do not see that, then YIKES.

It really has been noticeable the past five years like you say and getting worse seemingly. These are mostly very good recruits. So, were ALL the recruitniks and evaluators wrong on these players? It almost seems like players unlearn offensive basketball when coming here. Ennis was a first round pick but that team SUCKED offensively after the 25-0 hoax when games started to matter and teams started to really prepare for us. Poor Cooney running around aimlessly with very little designed help. If not for Rak and the simple play of dumping the ball to him to bail us out that team may have been the worst offensive team in D1! I mean what the hell happened to Gillon? It's like he doesn't know how to play anymore. He can't even move forward. Same with Howard somewhat. Battle can't even move. Roberson had some game in H.S. against good competition but he is now a robotic herky-jerky dude with no basketball instincts/IQ. Yes, Gillon played at CSU but we aren't beating ANY Mountain West teams right now the way the offense and defense are being played/designed/schemed whatever, imo. Frustrating.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Why do people throw these numbers out and act like they are just amazing!

How about these numbers - At Duke, Krzyzewski has led the Blue Devils to five NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 12 ACC regular season titles, and 13 ACC Tournament championships.

40 years is a long time. I wish there had been more success, but let's not all act like JB is infallible or the best in the business.

Hell, Roy Williams, who I don't think is actually a great coach has 2 titles, 8 final fours, 7 ACC regular season titles, 3 ACC tourney titles, 3 big 12 tourney titles.

JB has done amazing things for the program, but could he have had more success of the years? Possibly.

because they are amazing numbers.

some have even more amazing stats, some you mentioned others not...like Calhoun or Knight.

don't care.

im not comparing JB to them.

im comparing JB to JB.

and hes still winning at the same clip or even better than he was 40 years ago.

is he infallible?? of course not. does he make mistakes?? imo very rarely during a game.

arguing about practice, and the 2-3 zone's use in it...is flukin stoopid. yes, that's where I can throw his stats out. if it was such a detriment, then we wouldn't be routinely finishing with 20 wins and going to Final Fours like we have been recently.

and for someone to come on here and say that they don't know 'anyone that is a JB fan.'...is one of the most ludicrous statements I have ever seen.

the poster was laying out his argument sanely and then forgot to seal the porthole before heading out to sea.

1 thing I am NOT looking forward too, is what happens after he is gone.

judging by how recruiting is going for next year etc, we are starting to get a glimpse.

the haters are most definitely going to get their wish...a JB-less program, I just cant see how anyone is excited for it.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Why do people throw these numbers out and act like they are just amazing!

How about these numbers - At Duke, Krzyzewski has led the Blue Devils to five NCAA Championships, 12 Final Fours, 12 ACC regular season titles, and 13 ACC Tournament championships.

40 years is a long time. I wish there had been more success, but let's not all act like JB is infallible or the best in the business.

Hell, Roy Williams, who I don't think is actually a great coach has 2 titles, 8 final fours, 7 ACC regular season titles, 3 ACC tourney titles, 3 big 12 tourney titles.

JB has done amazing things for the program, but could he have had more success of the years? Possibly.

The fact you had to pick Coach K and Roy Williams to make your argument shows how good of a resume Boeheim has.

 

[dasher]

Jeez. I guess I need to make things even simpler for you. Didn't say we had to play man2man to beat them. Where did you see that implication? Maybe you're just assuming that because every commentator says that the way to beat our zone is to feed a passer at the FT line means there's nothing we can or should do to prevent that from being less effective. But nowhere in my posts has there been the whiff of a suggestion that we should have played man. No where. And in fact, although I dislike zone, I've said several times this year that we should not be playing any man. Probably said it in this thread. Please react to what I've actually said. I will try to express myself in simpler, more trump-like phrasings.

Why don't we try this, here is a question for you and your "friends". Name 5 coaches, that you would rather have coaching Syracuse. You might want to make it 5 guys that would actually come here.

 

[dasher]

You won't get a fair reply to any of your points. Not from the people you're talking to. Stop the actual discussion you hater.

Yeah, because it is a fair observation that jb isn't a very good coach. And that is exactly what Zonk and his friends are saying. They don't like his coaching. Hard to have a 'FAIR" conversation with something so moronic.

 

[realorange]

And they are condemned at a far greater rate than those of the sycophants. Either way, I've been here for a long time. I said my Friends may be uncomfortable. They're the ones who expressed that it's a board MORE suited for the cheerleader types. Personally, I enjoy a healthy, intelligent debate and seeing varying perspectives.

That is the best there is. Unfortunately, we have many who like to lay in the long grass and shoot arrows at whoever they might hit.

 

[two3zone]

why do I get the feeling that you have this post or something similar written & ready to go at the beginning of every game?

TrueBlue may be a lot of things but he is not a negative Nancy around here, he's usually very upbeat and positive. I highly doubt he had any intentions writing this post ever in his life let alone every game.

 

[OttoMets]

...

the haters are most definitely going to get their wish...a JB-less program, I just cant see how anyone is excited for it.

People who wish for that (I think they're rare here, but maybe they'll come out of the woodwork when we play like this) are nuts.

The guy's not a perfect coach, he's very good. And I fear he's the best option we've got, so things are about to change for the worse in a year or so.

But his refusal to put together an offense that works with non-NBA talent is bordering on ridiculous.

 

[djcon57]

Yeah, because it is a fair observation thatjb isn't a very good coach. And that is exactly what Zonk and his friends are saying. They don't like his coaching. Hard to have a 'FAIR" conversation with something so moronic.

How is saying "I don't like his coaching" = "JB isn't a very good coach"?

That's ridiculous.

I wouldn't like Eli Manning as the QB of my team because I don't love multiple things about his play, but I wouldn't say he isn't a good QB.