Thought the question by Waters about effort was sort of weird

[Cuse_NYC]

I don’t think it was an effort issue. We just sort of are who we are. We didn’t hit shots for a while and they did. Actually surprised Jim didn’t rip him up for asking, but I guess he’s fine with throwing Benny and Bell under the bus for their effort. I almost get the feeling he wants to play Bell and Benny limited minutes, hoping they get minimal rebounds; so he has something to talk about in the presser… wish Mike would have asked why no man to man when they were feasting on our zone.

 

[Red Holzman]

Effort kind of a relative term, depending on standards, or what you look for(?)
There's "effort" -then there's EFFORT.
Benny had a failed, but very feisty attempted put-back slam early in the Cornell game.
That's the effort I look for based on his athleticism -play with an edge and above the rim.
Very debatable topic -my perception is that Bell and Benny do need to rev their motors more consistently.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Effort kind of a relative term, depending on standards, or what you look for(?)
There's "effort" -then there's EFFORT.
Benny had a failed, but very feisty attempted put-back slam early in the Cornell game.
That's the effort I look for based on his athleticism -play with an edge and above the rim.
Very debatable topic -my perception is that Bell and Benny do need to rev their motors more consistently.

Fine. But to single them out every single game is annoying. Were they up top covering Cummings? Imagine if Benny made the mistakes Judah did in this game? The presser would be called Boeheim’s Benny Press Conference.

 

[Goin' Deep]

OK...when you scoped these players out a few years back, is this how they played?
Little physical effort, low gear, no afterburner...?
If so, why did you offer them?
If not, how come this basketball program can't get them to perform at a high level?

 

[CuseCPT]

Coach recruited, assembled, trained, and manages this team. But I guess the real problem is they just don't care enough to try hard. Okay!

 

[Cuse181]

Fine. But to single them out every single game is annoying. Were they up top covering Cummings? Imagine if Benny made the mistakes Judah did in this game? The presser would be called Boeheim’s Benny Press Conference.

They get called out because guys who are not as good as them are constantly out performing them. JBs comments last night made it sound like they’re on thin ice. You can see the effort isn’t there though, brown and Taylor aren’t more athletic than either bell or Williams yet they are consistently out performing them in the rebounding department.

As for up top, you choose your battles. You’re really going to call out the two guys who were the reason you’re in the game when they outperformed your forwards in rebounding and point contribution? No. The defense was bad all around, but one group gave something to makeup for what they were giving up.

Benny and bell are lucky they’re even allowed to see the court most nights. If they don’t like getting called out, be better. It’s obviously possible seeing as brown outworks them every night.

 

[Otto'd]

They get called out because guys who are not as good as them are constantly out performing them. JBs comments last night made it sound like they’re on thin ice. You can see the effort isn’t there though, brown and Taylor aren’t more athletic than either bell or Williams yet they are consistently out performing them in the rebounding department.

As for up top, you choose your battles. You’re really going to call out the two guys who were the reason you’re in the game when they outperformed your forwards in rebounding and point contribution? No. The defense was bad all around, but one group gave something to makeup for what they were giving up.

Benny and bell are lucky they’re even allowed to see the court most nights. If they don’t like getting called out, be better. It’s obviously possible seeing as brown outworks them every night.

Might be true, but isnt judging a motor part of recruiting? or are these kids so limited (big motor, limited skill; good skill, limited motor) that it is JBs fault anyway? I dont even believe he looks at recruits any longer, he just tells GMac and Red to line them up and he will coach them up. That mightve worked a while back, be hes long past coaching kids up.

 

[Marty McFly]

Say what you want, but the effort did kind of suck for most of that game. Bell, Benny and Edwards weren't locked in. They looked passive, timid, and were late to react on a bunch of different plays, but the defense as a whole was subpar (until trunk-monkey). I thought the real difference in the game was cummings. His 3 point barrage in the first half set the tone, and we had no answer. We played catch up all night, refs were abysmal during our comeback as well, but that was the least of the issues.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Taylor missed almost every jumper he took last night and had zero boards in 15 and there is radio silence on that. No, Benny and Bell are not ideal starting forwards, but everyone is using them as the punching bag this year. Taylor has not shown much more. Brown is my favorite and has made the best case for time, but is severely limited in jump shooting and off the dribble. Ajak again has no shot and no handle of any kind. Copeland shined yesterday but is not going to be mr consistent.

They both looked solid in the last 5 game stretch before this game. Both improved in that time in their shooting efficiency and I have seen better effort on the boards and on defense. We have threads dedicated to commending those improvements from just the last game with many voicing their approval. They played 13 mins yesterday. I will say with my chest that I do not think there problem is a lack of effort. They are being asked to do too much on a roster severely lacking in talent and experience at forward.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

They get called out because guys who are not as good as them are constantly out performing them. JBs comments last night made it sound like they’re on thin ice. You can see the effort isn’t there though, brown and Taylor aren’t more athletic than either bell or Williams yet they are consistently out performing them in the rebounding department.

As for up top, you choose your battles. You’re really going to call out the two guys who were the reason you’re in the game when they outperformed your forwards in rebounding and point contribution? No. The defense was bad all around, but one group gave something to makeup for what they were giving up.

Benny and bell are lucky they’re even allowed to see the court most nights. If they don’t like getting called out, be better. It’s obviously possible seeing as brown outworks them every night.

Benny shot well the other night and Jim questioned him as a shooter for the season lol. It’s not apple and apples with Jim anymore…

 

[rrlbees]

When JB says effort, he’s mostly talking about rebounds when it comes to forwards and centers. He rightfully so believes rebounding is all about effort. Benny has shown several times he can be a good rebounder. Bell had been doing better as evidenced by his Cornell game. Neither last night were rebounding anything. He used Q as an example last night. Q, Benny and Chris each played 13 mins last night. Bell had 1 rebound and Benny 0. Q had 5.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Taylor missed almost every jumper he took last night and had zero boards in 15 and there is radio silence on that. No, Benny and Bell are not ideal starting forwards, but everyone is using them as the punching bag this year. Taylor has not shown much more. Brown is my favorite and has made the best case for time, but is severely limited in jump shooting and off the dribble. Ajak again has no shot and no handle of any kind. Copeland shined yesterday but is not going to be mr consistent.

They both looked solid in the last 5 game stretch before this game. Both improved in that time in their shooting efficiency and I have seen better effort on the boards and on defense. We have threads dedicated to commending those improvements from just the last game with many voicing their approval. They played 13 mins yesterday. I will say with my chest that I do not think there problem is a lack of effort. They are being asked to do too much on a roster severely lacking in talent and experience at forward.

Agree!

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Say what you want, but the effort did kind of suck for most of that game. Bell, Benny and Edwards weren't locked in. They looked passive, timid, and were late to react on a bunch of different plays, but the defense as a whole was subpar (until trunk-monkey). I thought the real difference in the game was cummings. His 3 point barrage in the first half set the tone, and we had no answer. We played catch up all night, refs were abysmal during our comeback as well, but that was the least of the issues.

And did Benny cover Cummings???

 

[Cuse181]

Benny shot well the other night and Jim questioned him as a shooter for the season lol. It’s not apple and apples with Jim anymore…

Maybe it’s still not his game and Jim thinks he should be getting inside. I’m not sure what’s stopping him from doing so.

 

[Cuse181]

Might be true, but isnt judging a motor part of recruiting? or are these kids so limited (big motor limited, skill; good skill, limited motor) that it is JBs fault anyway? I dont even believe he looks at recruits any longer, he just tells GMac and Red to line them up and he will coach them up. That mightve worked a while back, be hes long past coaching kids up.

I’m not sure, if you look at benny’s highlight tapes (he was at quite a few of his games btw) he seems like an athletic freak who was on the boards and racing by guys. I’m not sure what changed. Bell was always supposed to be a shooter, JB probably thought he would at least put some effort into getting on the boards. The guy made Doli a half way decent center, so it’s not like he hasn’t unleashed potential, at some point it’s on the players to perform.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Taylor missed almost every jumper he took last night and had zero boards in 15 and there is radio silence on that. No, Benny and Bell are not ideal starting forwards, but everyone is using them as the punching bag this year. Taylor has not shown much more. Brown is my favorite and has made the best case for time, but is severely limited in jump shooting and off the dribble. Ajak again has no shot and no handle of any kind. Copeland shined yesterday but is not going to be mr consistent.

They both looked solid in the last 5 game stretch before this game. Both improved in that time in their shooting efficiency and I have seen better effort on the boards and on defense. We have threads dedicated to commending those improvements from just the last game with many voicing their approval. They played 13 mins yesterday. I will say with my chest that I do not think there problem is a lack of effort. They are being asked to do too much on a roster severely lacking in talent and experience at forward.

Fans are going to have their favorites and see what they want to see, but Benny and Bell have got a lot longer leash than Taylor this year. People are on those guys because they are playing more minutes than production has justified so far. They are by far the two weakest links in the starting lineup and were -17 and -16 respectively last night.

Benny was missing shots, pouting, not running back on defens,e and JB still gave him huge rope until we had no choice because we were down so much. I really had zero issues with him calling it out because I saw it with my own eyes being there live.

The Taylor criticism doesn't make much sense to me. He at least was a threat on offense last night and got to the basket a couple of times for key buckets. Scoring wise he has a lot more potential than both IMO with more tricks in his bag. If he got as much rope as those guys I could see it, but he barely even plays unless JB is forced to shake it up.

If it were me I'd bench Bell now for Brown and continue to start Benny while mixing in Taylor/Copeland/Ajak. We are 13 games into Benny's sophomore season and I am still not sure what he does above average. The freshman at least have one thing they excel at.

 

[DoctahLexus]

Fans are going to have their favorites and see what they want to see, but Benny and Bell have got a lot longer leash than Taylor this year. People are on those guys because they are playing more minutes than production has justified so far. They are by far the two weakest links in the starting lineup and were -17 and -16 respectively last night.

Benny was missing shots, pouting, not running back on defens,e and JB still gave him huge rope until we had no choice because we were down so much. I really had zero issues with him calling it out because I saw it with my own eyes being there live.

The Taylor criticism doesn't make much sense to me. He at least was a threat on offense last night and got to the basket a couple of times for key buckets. Scoring wise he has a lot more potential than both IMO with more tricks in his bag. If he got as much rope as those guys I could see it, but he barely even plays unless JB is forced to shake it up.

If it were me I'd bench Bell now for Brown and continue to start Benny while mixing in Taylor/Copeland/Ajak. We are 13 games into Benny's sophomore season and I am still not sure what he does above average. The freshman at least have one thing they excel at.

To be clear I am not criticizing taylor and do not think we should criticize him for last nights performance. I just am surprised at the disparity between him and two guys who played less minutes last night and had similar poor games. I disagree that taylor was in any way more of a threat on offense than Benny or Bell. I think both Benny and Bell are more a threat due to their mid range game, but that's besides the point right now.

Taylor is only averaging 3.5 mins less than Bell (16.3 vs 19.8) on the season and not shooting the ball any better despite that supposedly being one of his strong suits as well. Yes Bells rebounding numbers are bad but Taylors are not strong either 1.4 vs 2.1. I just think the disparity in criticism is out of wack there. Both are young players figuring it out and being put in situations too big for them at present. That is on the staff and the roster they put together.

I agree with you on trying a Brown Benny starting lineup. Personally would still have Bell be the main third guy with some mins still for copeland and taylor. Would pretty much always rather have Brown in than Ajak.

 

[Cusefan0307]

To be clear I am not criticizing taylor and do not think we should criticize him for last nights performance. I just am surprised at the disparity between him and two guys who played less minutes last night and had similar poor games. I disagree that taylor was in any way more of a threat on offense than Benny or Bell. I think both Benny and Bell are more a threat due to their mid range game, but that's besides the point right now.

Taylor is only averaging 3.5 mins less than Bell (16.3 vs 19.8) on the season and not shooting the ball any better despite that supposedly being one of his strong suits as well. Yes Bells rebounding numbers are bad but Taylors are not strong either 1.4 vs 2.1. I just think the disparity in criticism is out of wack there. Both are young players figuring it out and being put in situations too big for them at present. That is on the staff and the roster they put together.

I agree with you on trying a Brown Benny starting lineup. Personally would still have Bell be the main third guy with some mins still for copeland and taylor. Would pretty much always rather have Brown in than Ajak.

I really don’t think the eye test is lying here, but everyone’s going to have their own opinion.

Bell was 2-7(0-5) and we were -15 the 13 minutes he played.

Taylor was 2-5 in 15 minutes and we were plus 2 during his time on the court. One guy is clearly a bigger negative than the other.

Taylor has one DNP and has played 60 less minutes than Bell. Bell has got a ton of rope. Heck I may prefer Copeland over him too.

 

[DoctahLexus]

I really don’t think the eye test is lying here, but everyone’s going to have their own opinion.

Bell was 2-7(0-5) and we were -15 the 13 minutes he played.

Taylor was 2-5 in 15 minutes and we were plus 2 during his time on the court. One guy is clearly a bigger negative than the other.

Taylor has one DNP and has played 60 less minutes than Bell. Bell has got a ton of rope. Heck I may prefer Copeland over him too.

The stats don't lie on the size of rope boeheim gives Bell vs Taylor. One rope is not much bigger than the other. Under 20 a game is not a ton of rope. He just happens to start. Maybe he shouldn't, but Boeheim isn't playing him 35 a game here. 4 out of the last 6 games bell has played 13 or less.

 

[tbonezone]

JB says stuff to mic that is best saved for the locker room. not sure why he thinks it helps. it don't. especially when some players get a pass. needs to praise the opponents effort and accept the blame for losses himself and then move on. next question.

 

[Trueblue25]

Im fine with questioning effort for multiple players.

This is ACC basketball, not AAU. We just lost to pitt, why aren’t people upset?

Don’t rebound? Don’t defend? Being a non factor on O?

Enjoy the pine because Q, Taylor and Maliq are productive.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Taylor has one DNP and has played 60 less minutes than Bell. Bell has got a ton of rope. Heck I may prefer Copeland over him too.

I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering how Bell made his way into the starting lineup initially and has maintained that spot. While he hasn't been awful, he hasn't exactly lit it up and brings absolutely nothing besides occasionally hitting a J. Defense, rebounding, effort, ball handling, etc were all in his profile coming in as major question marks. Having him start alongside another has no versatility makes little sense. He's the type of player that would get spot minutes, if that, as a freshmen in years past.

Copeland brings energy, some ball handling and playmaking, though I'm not sure the rest of his game is ready yet. I'm guessing he'd be a much better defender/rebounder in similar minutes. Brown is limited offensively in ability outside of 3 feet, but seems to bring everything else. Good rebounding, seems decent on D, has a nice feel for his strengths and how to score. Taylor probably has the most offensive upside, but he's kind of invisible in other aspects far too often out there, similar to Bell. I'd rather play Taylor 20+ minutes because I think our offense would be much more versatile.

The Benny/Bell combo can work in situations, but really, there are better players for the system and what we need right now...

 

[swish7]

I don’t think it was an effort issue. We just sort of are who we are. We didn’t hit shots for a while and they did. Actually surprised Jim didn’t rip him up for asking, but I guess he’s fine with throwing Benny and Bell under the bus for their effort. I almost get the feeling he wants to play Bell and Benny limited minutes, hoping they get minimal rebounds; so he has something to talk about in the presser… wish Mike would have asked why no man to man when they were feasting on our zone.

James Arthur has shifted the focus to 'effort', which may be true, but the fact of the matter is, we cannot hit jump shots and Pitt and every one else can.

1. Early in the shot clock, poor spacing, one-on-one move, a random players hands get free in a random area of the court, why not?, off the dribble, shot
2. Clang
3. No rebound
4. Pitt ball
5. Nice motions, good passing, spot up
6. Swish

Over and over

 

[rrlbees]

Im fine with questioning effort for multiple players.

This is ACC basketball, not AAU. We just lost to pitt, why aren’t people upset?

Don’t rebound? Don’t defend? Being a non factor on O?

Enjoy the pine because Q, Taylor and Maliq are productive.

Can you tell me besides their one game each where Taylor and Q have been so productive?

 

[Trueblue25]

Can you tell me besides their one game each where Taylor and Q have been so productive?

Wouldn’t know, they hardly get PT. Maybe there’s good reason. Dont know.

Was the same deal with Maliq, who may be our best forward, up until last week.