Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?

[Knicks411]

Also it's not surprising that when Wilt started to chnage his game a little he became a lot more efficient. He went from a 52-53% shooter from the field to closer to 58-60%. In 68 he lead the league in rebounds, assists, and field goal%. That's a hell of a year. (And shot 38% from the floor; yikes)

 

[alphaorange]

If you were making a list of the all-time greatest players in NBA history (based on whatever metrics you choose), who would you rank higher - Bird or Duncan? And why?

Might as well ask who is better Wilt, or Bird. Different eras, of course, but completely different type of players both in style and position. Bird could have averaged 30, no problem. Duncan is 15' and in. Bird was 30' and in. Bird could make his own shot at will. Duncan depends on teammates to get him the ball (or offensive boards). Bird was a great, great passer, a better shooter, a supreme scorer, a very good rebounder, and a solid defender. His ONLY drawback was his lack of athleticism. Duncan is a supreme defender, an excellent rebounder. Both guys lack athleticism but managed to mitigate it through smart ball. Bird by a landslide.

 

[skurey]

The following posts should be ban worthy:

Bird > Duncan
What channel is the game on?
Any post mentioning Lebron and Melo both.
Heard a rumor...
Name dropping on any level

 

[Eric15]

Might as well ask who is better Wilt, or Bird. Different eras, of course, but completely different type of players both in style and position. Bird could have averaged 30, no problem. Duncan is 15' and in. Bird was 30' and in. Bird could make his own shot at will. Duncan depends on teammates to get him the ball (or offensive boards). Bird was a great, great passer, a better shooter, a supreme scorer, a very good rebounder, and a solid defender. His ONLY drawback was his lack of athleticism. Duncan is a supreme defender, an excellent rebounder. Both guys lack athleticism but managed to mitigate it through smart ball. Bird by a landslide.

I was simply asking who was the all-time greater player - I could ask that same question about Manute Bol vs. Muggsy Bogues.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

I am late to the party, but if Duncan wins title 5 this year my new top 10 would look like this.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Tim Duncan
6. Larry Bird
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Lebron James(obviously Lebron will end up in the top 3 when his career is over)

This is about right for me too, although I put bird before Duncan mostly because , bird was more diverse in how he could beat you being a perimeter threatbas well

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[alphaorange]

I really don't think Duncan belongs in the same conversation as Bird. While Duncan is likely the best PF of all time, Bird was one of just a few transcendent players. Replace Duncan with McHale at the same point in their careers and the Spurs likely win just as much (exception is longevity, which is apparently not part of this query). Replace Bird with Dominique and the Celtics, while very good, are not nearly as great. People seemed to forget that until James and Kobe, the top three all time players were considered to be Jordan @1, and Magic/Bird @ 2 and 3, depending on the day... It is inconceivable to me that there is any way they could be knocked from the top 4 or 5, even with James and Bryant, and I don't think Kobe belongs in that group.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The following posts should be ban worthy:

Bird > Duncan
What channel is the game on?
Any post mentioning Lebron and Melo both.
Heard a rumor...
Name dropping on any level

So I was talking to my buddy Jeff Van Gundy and he was telling me that there's really no contest when deciding who is better between Bird and Duncan, but he heard a rumor that there are a few NBA execs out there that would take Melo over Lebron if given the chance. Hey, anybody know what channel tonight's Grizz game is on? I'm hoping for a DG sighting.

 

[Eric15]

People seemed to forget that until James and Kobe, the top three all time players were considered to be (by people who think that the NBA was founded in 1980) Jordan @1, and Magic/Bird @ 2 and 3, depending on the day...

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Alsacs]

The following posts should be ban worthy:

Bird > Duncan
What channel is the game on?
Any post mentioning Lebron and Melo both.
Heard a rumor...
Name dropping on any level

Read Bill Simmons book on basketball before that one. I think Bird was one of the greatest players of all-time, but he played in an era without a tough salary cap and played 3 HOFs during his prime playing days Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish. Throw in Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Gerald Henderson, M.L. Carr, Rick Carlysle, Quinn Buckner the teams in the 1980's were stacked before the NBA over-expanded and the salary cap with max contracts happened. Bird was in the East which was more difficult than Magic's Western conference, but Duncan has been the best player 4 championship teams, and never drafted a player in the lottery. If Duncan wins championship five he would supplant Bird because Duncan has 10 first team All-NBA selections and has been playing 16 years of high quality basketball. Bird's career was from 1980 to 1990 before injuries destroyed him his last two years. Bird only has 3 championships and lost in the finals two times. I would say the top 3 untouchable for anybody, but Lebron 1. Jordan 2. Russell 3. Kareem. Magic vs. Kobe is atleast debatable, but I would take Magic. Duncan can end his career at 5 until Lebron will eventually knock him down a slot.

 

[alphaorange]

Fixed that for ya.

Actually, I have been watching the NBA since the late 60s. Outside of Russell, I have seen almost all the players on the list. I'm pretty sure I have some idea of how these guys were against their peers. Been a hard core NBA fan for almost 50 years.

 

[Eric15]

Actually, I have been watching the NBA since the late 60s. Outside of Russell, I have seen almost all the players on the list. I'm pretty sure I have some idea of how these guys were against their peers. Been a hard core NBA fan for almost 50 years.

I'm just teasing you. But you said the top 3 players all time are considered to be Jordan/Magic/Bird, and I don't believe that is true. The overwhelming majority of lists I've seen put Kareem and Russell (and usually Wilt) ahead of Bird.

 

[alphaorange]

Read Bill Simmons book on basketball before that one. I think Bird was one of the greatest players of all-time, but he played in an era without a tough salary cap and played 3 HOFs during his prime playing days Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish. Throw in Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Gerald Henderson, M.L. Carr, Rick Carlysle, Quinn Buckner the teams in the 1980's were stacked before the NBA over-expanded and the salary cap with max contracts happened. Bird was in the East which was more difficult than Magic's Western conference, but Duncan has been the best player 4 championship teams, and never drafted a player in the lottery. If Duncan wins championship five he would supplant Bird because Duncan has 10 first team All-NBA selections and has been playing 16 years of high quality basketball. Bird's career was from 1980 to 1990 before injuries destroyed him his last two years. Bird only has 3 championships and lost in the finals two times. I would say the top 3 untouchable for anybody, but Lebron 1. Jordan 2. Russell 3. Kareem. Magic vs. Kobe is atleast debatable, but I would take Magic. Duncan can end his career at 5 until Lebron will eventually knock him down a slot.

I'll seriously disagree with a couple of points. I can't believe there is a gm ever that would take Kobe over Magic. Ever. I would suggest a look at the finals against the Sixers when Kareem went down. Final line in game 7? 42 points, 14 of 14 from the free throw line, 15 rebounds, seven assists and three steals. From a rookie PG playing center. He was LeBron before LeBron. He could have scored just as much but had better scorers to pass to. If you didn't watch his career, you can have no idea of how great he really was. Same with Bird. Unless you watched these guys careers, it is impossible to know how great these guys were from highlites. Rings are overrated as a criteria for greatness. Basketball is a team sport and there is no player that ever won a ring without great players with him. Switch Kobe with Clyde Drexler and Drexler has a handful of rings and Kobe is still looking for one.

 

[alphaorange]

I'm just teasing you. But you said the top 3 players all time are considered to be Jordan/Magic/Bird, and I don't believe that is true. The overwhelming majority of lists I've seen put Kareem and Russell (and usually Wilt) ahead of Bird.

Kareem I can understand. Russell I have a bit lower but I didn't really see him play. Wilt was more like Shaq, IMO. Just a humongus guy compared to his peers. His scoring numbers would be much, much lower if he played his entire career with the modern goaltending rule (which was changed because of him). He simply caught shots and put them in. Nobody had the size to stop him. Dominant in a Shaq type way.

 

[SWC75]

Kareem I can understand. Russell I have a bit lower but I didn't really see him play. Wilt was more like Shaq, IMO. Just a humongus guy compared to his peers. His scoring numbers would be much, much lower if he played his entire career with the modern goaltending rule (which was changed because of him). He simply caught shots and put them in. Nobody had the size to stop him. Dominant in a Shaq type way.

From my earlier post:

"Wilt's career numbers are actually down quite a bit from his prime because he spent the latter half of it trying to imitate Russell, (which was a good idea, because that's when he won his championships). His numbers before that are inflated, if that's the word, prior to that due to the pace and the number of rebounds to be gotten. But he dominated the game like no one ever has before or since. I think today he'd actually be a greater player, even though his stats were less. The guys guarding him would be bigger than they were then so Wilt would have to use all of his abilities to score- he couldn't just dunk over smaller guys. He was track star in high school and could dunk from the foul line. He could shoot jumpers like Olajuwon. You'd really see him put on a show today."

Wilt was much better than Shaq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

 

[Knicks411]

Wilt was definitely more athletic than Shaq; and I'd take Wilt over him because Shaq seemed to lose focus a little bit, put on weight, etc. But Shaq was amazing.

 

[Eric15]

Wilt was definitely more athletic than Shaq; and I'd take Wilt over him because Shaq seemed to lose focus a little bit, put on weight, etc. But Shaq was amazing.

If I was creating an NBA team from scratch and could pick any player from any season in the history of the league, I would seriously consider 1999-2000 Shaq as my first overall pick. I'm not saying I'd do that, but I'd certainly consider it.

 

[Knicks411]

If I was creating an NBA team from scratch and could pick any player from any season in the history of the league, I would seriously consider 1999-2000 Shaq as my first overall pick. I'm not saying I'd do that, but I'd certainly consider it.

Yeah I would definitely get that; if I knew I could get that Shaq for 10-15 years, he is right up there.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

As fun as it is to talk players, if Popovich gets another one this season where does he belong among the NBA greats?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Issue is Bird had to contest with Magic's Lakers teams Duncan never had to compete with anybody like that

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[Alsacs]

Issue is Bird had to contest with Magic's Lakers teams Duncan never had to compete with anybody like that

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Umm, yeah he did try Shaq and Kobe Lakers from 1998 to 2004, Dirk Nowitzki Mavs 2002-2011, Kobe-Pau Gasol Lakers 2008-2010, Durant-Westbrook-Harden Thunder 2012. Duncan and the Spurs have stayed consistent a la the 1980's Lakers, but unlike Magic's Lakers the strength of the NBA has been in the West a majority of Duncan's career.

Magic Johnson's Lakers are lucky the Houston Rockets of 1986 fell apart, the Dallas Mavericks, Utah Jazz always choked. The Lakers of the 80's owned the West because all the depth was in the East Boston, Detroit, Philadelphia, hell even the Milwaukee Bucks would have been the 2nd best team in the West.

The difference between the Spurs of the 2000s and Celtics of the 1980s are the NBA has overexpanded now and the salary cap/luxury tax makes it hard to keep teams together. The Celtics/Lakers of the 1980s could have never stayed together. Bird-McHale-Parish-Dennis Johnson-Ainge-Walton/Maxwell-Henderson-Wedman-Carr or Magic-Kareem-Worthy-Cooper-Scott-Green-M. Thompson-McAdoo could have never fit under the salary cap or the luxury tax. That is the difference. Bird is a great player, and better all around, but in today's NBA Duncan would be more valuable even though I think Bird was the better player all-around.

In the 1980s the NBA wasn't as athletic as it is now, and while Bird would still be great he would have to work a lot harder on his defense defending guys and on offense to get his shots while being defended by Tony Allen's, George Hill's, Shane Battier's, Bruce Bowen's rather than guys in the 1980s.

 

[Knicks411]

Issue is Bird had to contest with Magic's Lakers teams Duncan never had to compete with anybody like that

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As mentioned, the Shaq and Kobe lakers?

As fun as it is to talk players, if Popovich gets another one this season where does he belong among the NBA greats?

Jackson, Riley, Aurebach, Pop. He's gotta be just below those guys at worst, right?

 

[alphaorange]

If I was creating an NBA team from scratch and could pick any player from any season in the history of the league, I would seriously consider 1999-2000 Shaq as my first overall pick. I'm not saying I'd do that, but I'd certainly consider it.

Playing with the rules of what era? There is no question that Shaq was anointed the next face of the NBA and was allowed to bulldoze his way to the basket. He ushered in the era of simply overpowering your opponent vs using skill to score. That being said, he did develop good footwork and a bit of an offensive game in later years. My problem with him is that he was allowed to be a bull in a china shop. Wilt did not do that, although he certainly could have. The game is not better for this as that style has led to the proliferation of flopping.

 

[MikeSU02]

Magic Johnson's Lakers are lucky the Houston Rockets of 1986 fell apart.

That Houston team that was together in 86, if they had held together, could have been one of the most fun teams to watch.

A great "what if".

 

[RF2044]

Read Bill Simmons book on basketball before that one. I think Bird was one of the greatest players of all-time, but he played in an era without a tough salary cap and played 3 HOFs during his prime playing days Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish. Throw in Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Gerald Henderson, M.L. Carr, Rick Carlysle, Quinn Buckner the teams in the 1980's were stacked before the NBA over-expanded and the salary cap with max contracts happened. Bird was in the East which was more difficult than Magic's Western conference, but Duncan has been the best player 4 championship teams, and never drafted a player in the lottery. If Duncan wins championship five he would supplant Bird because Duncan has 10 first team All-NBA selections and has been playing 16 years of high quality basketball. Bird's career was from 1980 to 1990 before injuries destroyed him his last two years. Bird only has 3 championships and lost in the finals two times. I would say the top 3 untouchable for anybody, but Lebron 1. Jordan 2. Russell 3. Kareem. Magic vs. Kobe is atleast debatable, but I would take Magic. Duncan can end his career at 5 until Lebron will eventually knock him down a slot.

The flipside argument being that Bird played in an era before the league was dilluted by expansion, when there were 60 fewer players in the bigs, making the guys filling out the back end of the rosters "better," and before free agency--which meant that good teams were able to stockpile talent and hang onto it moreso than today. That wasn't just true in Boston [to your example]--it was true of all teams.

No question, there was better overall quality of competition during Bird's prime era than in the 20+ years after that. Who was Jordan's primary competition? He played Utah two years in a row at the end of his championship run, but before that played different teams in the championship every year.

Was there an eastern conference team that was an obvious foil for the Kobe / Shaq era Lakers?

I don't think there's any comparison between the gauntlet that the Celtics / Lakers had to play back then just to get to the championship, and then their reward was having to face a team that was equally as dominant if they got there.

 

[Alsacs]

The flipside argument being that Bird played in an era before the league was dilluted by expansion, when there were 60 fewer players in the bigs, making the guys filling out the back end of the rosters "better," and before free agency--which meant that good teams were able to stockpile talent and hang onto it moreso than today. That wasn't just true in Boston [to your example]--it was true of all teams.

No question, there was better overall quality of competition during Bird's prime era than in the 20+ years after that. Who was Jordan's primary competition? He played Utah two years in a row at the end of his championship run, but before that played different teams in the championship every year.

Was there an eastern conference team that was an obvious foil for the Kobe / Shaq era Lakers?

I don't think there's any comparison between the gauntlet that the Celtics / Lakers had to play back then just to get to the championship, and then their reward was having to face a team that was equally as dominant if they got there.

The 1980s Lakers didn't have any gauntlet before playing the Pistons, Celtics, Sixers in the NBA Finals. The Lakers in the 80's only played 1 Western team in a 7 games series the Dallas Mavericks and they obviously won it. The Lakers only challenger was the 86 Rockets which kicked their a$$ because Kareem and Kupchak couldn't defend Hakeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson. Once that Rockets decomposed itself the Lakers were free to rule the West until Magic Johnson got the HIV. After that the Portland Trailblazers from 1990-1992 became the best team and the Houston Rockets from 1993 to 1995 became the dominant teams after Showtime.

The 2000 Lakers had many Western foils that rivaled the East of 1980s. The only difference was that their wasn't a Lakers of 80's team all by themselves in the East to make the finals interesting. If Minnesota with KG got shifted to the East I think the Garnett Twolves could have been that Alpha dog Eastern team from 2002 till 2005. The West was stacked Lakers, Spurs, Blazers, TWolves, Mavs, Suns, Kings all had good teams throughout the Spurs-Lakers dominance in the West.

The 2001 Lakers had probably the greatest postseason run of all time.
That team swept a 50 win Blazers team round 1, swept a 55 win Kings team round 2, swept a 58 win Spurs team in the West Finals, and beat a 56 win Sixers team in 5 games with their only loss in OT. That Lakers team beat FOUR 50 win teams.
The West was dominant from 1998 till Shaq's trade to Miami in 2005. After 2005 the West was still better overall, but the East became respectable again.