Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?

[HarrisonJBounel]

I think you can make a coherent argument that Bird is somewhat overrated - that he is in the top 20 or 25 but not top 10 - and from there it is not a leap to think that his ethnicity has something to do with his being consistently ranked so much higher. You don't have to agree with the argument, but you can't summarily dismiss it as "absurd"

Bird probably was not a top 10 player - until the last minute of the game. Then he may well have been the best.

 

[moqui]

It also tends to overrate power forwards. (Like I don't think Amare is one of the 26 best players in the history of the game) And also volume shooters; I rerad a study that basically any shot you take as long as you make over 33% or some ridiculously low threshold helps your PER. And you are also including some active players; I don't think you can compare a career rate stat for a guy who is retired to one for players who are still playing. Paul, Wade, Durant; don't really think you can count those guys. And Dr. J is only ahead of Bird if you include the ABA years; in pure NBA PER Bird moves ahead of him.

PER is also just one number. It's nowhere close to a perfect stat. If you think a 6-8 210 pound center who played 60 years ago and shot 44% from the field and only played 516 games in his career is better than Larry Bird (I don't think you do, just saying) then I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree. Bob Petit was legimately a great player, but he was also 6-9 205 and a bruiser type and played a game that didn't feature a ton of black players. I can't really put him ahead of Bird.

Also, I'm not 100% sure how they come up with PER for pre 70's players; they didn't even track turnovers or blocks or steals back then. You have any idea?
I think Bird, Magic, Kareem, and Russell are all in the top 6 or 7 players of all time, and none of them rank in the top 10 of PER. I think David Robinson was great, but I don't think he is one of the five best players of all time. So I'm not going to rely on it for too much.

Actually, taking it a step further, I don't know how many of the all time top 10 in PER I would have in my top ten of all time. Jordan, Lebron, Wilt, maybe Duncan. And that's probably it.

Edit: Went on the website, this is how they handle PER from pre 70's
The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statistics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:

• Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
• Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
• Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
• Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.

I don't think it would be terribly controversial to put this list out there

1. Chamberlain
2. Jordan
3. LBJ
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Duncan
9. Olajuwon

and then you have Bird fighting with a bunch of other real good guys for the 10th slot.

Very early in this thread I said that Bird would be in my top ten (but that I would put Duncan ahead of him), so this isn't my list. But I also think it would be non-controversial for anyone to rank him between 11 and 20.

 

[Knicks411]

Maybe it's just me then. I would have Bird ahead of Hakeem, Duncan (still, maybe not for much longer), Kobe, and maybe Wilt. (I would definitely not have Wilt #1, but I know you said it isn't your list. I think my top 10 goes something like this, and there is a part of me that doesn't want to have to rank Lebron yet

1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Russell
4) Magic
5) Wilt
6) Bird (i debated pretty hard between these 2, fwiw)
7) Duncan
8) Oscar
9) Hakeem
10) West? (this was tough. Kobe? Shaq?)

Lebron will almost certainly slot in somewhere in the top 3, so you can bump most of those guys down a spot. I struggled a bit toward the back end of the top 10.
\
Reading Simmons book really made me appreciate Jerry West. Just as a for example, they didn't track steals until the last year of his career, when he was 35. He averaged 3 steals per 36 minutes as a 35 year old. Played 39 minutes per game, shot 47% from the field, as a guard, in an era with lower shooting percentages. Took a million FT.

 

[CorduroyG]

bird playing an entire game left handed cuz he was bored on a west coast trip and needed a challenge and still dropping 25 or whatever it was is enough to put him in my top 10

 

[SWC75]

Yeah, Duncan has been the best player on 4 title teams. How many people can say that?

How many titles would Bird have if not for Magic's Lakers? And how many would Duncan have if he'd had to face Magic's Lakers?

 

[HakAttack]

This is a tough one...

Duncan is without a doubt, the best Power Forward of all time. He's perhaps the most consistent big man of this generation. He's won four titles. He's a career 20-10-2.7-2.7 guy. (Points, Rebounds, Blocks & Assists) But...he's not Larry Bird.

Bird is one of the best "all around" players of all time. I guess I would go with Bird, as he could do it all. He could score, he could pass, he could defend, and the guy was a 20-10 guy, and the ONLY 20-10-5 guy in NBA history (Points, Rebounds & Assists).

However, one area that I think Bird is really overrated is his 3 point prowess. Yes, he won three 3 point shootouts, but he's only ranked #147th all time in made three pointers, which is tied with Chris "freaking" Duhon. He's also a career 37.5% 3point shooter, which makes him again outside the top 100 all-time, and is comparable to Dirk Nowitzki's 38.1%.

BUT, Bird's a member of the 50-40-90 club (50% FG shooting, 40% 3point shooting, 90% FT shooting - in a season.) There's only five members, ALL TIME. Nash, Bird, Durant, Mark Price, Reggie Miller and Dirk. Bird and Nash are the only guys to do it more than one season. (Bird did it second.)

I think it's possible to underrate how good Larry Bird was. I gotta go with Bird. He's probably the best "all around" player of all-time, and perhaps the best triple-threat the game's ever had.

 

[44cuse]

unless LBJ goes down, nobody's chances are getting any better

What do you know:
1. He's not the best player on his team
2. Dirk is better
3. He's a choker

Or at least that's what we were told.

44cuse

 

[br801]

Reading Simmons book really made me appreciate Jerry West. Just as a for example, they didn't track steals until the last year of his career, when he was 35. He averaged 3 steals per 36 minutes as a 35 year old. Played 39 minutes per game, shot 47% from the field, as a guard, in an era with lower shooting percentages. Took a million FT.

West was a really good player on both ends of the floor (outstanding jump shooter and penetrator, excellent free throw shooter, great passer, very good rebounder, lock-down defender). Like many guys from his era, West is naturally being increasingly undervalued when the discussion turns to the greatest players of all-time. I find many of the dismissive comments (not yours, but various stuff I read and hear on this board and elsewhere) about true greats like West, Robertson, Chamberlain and Baylor to be hilarious. Those guys could play, and would have been dominant players in any era. Then there is whole subset of past greats who almost never get mentioned in these discussions (Erving, Cowens, Frazier, Barry, to name a few) who were incredible talents. But I'll stop now...

 

[br801]

Thanks Ithaca & Br. Do you think Walton would have gotten into the HOF without being able to take his UCLA career into account?

The basketball HoF inducts "players" based on the totality of their body work on the court. Walton's college career is what surely put him over the top, because brilliant as he was when healthy, he did not do enough for long enough as a professional to warrant induction.

 

[Knicks411]

How many titles would Bird have if not for Magic's Lakers? And how many would Duncan have if he'd had to face Magic's Lakers?

It's an interesting question, for sure. The most the Celtics would've won is 2 more, right? They lost to the Lakers in 85 and 87 in the finals. It might be better to ask how many titles the Lakers win in the 80's if they need to come out of the East every year instead of the West.

Duncan had to face Shaq and Kobe throughout most of the early 2000's, I'm not sure how much better, if any, Magic's Lakers really were

 

[Eric15]

Then there is whole subset of past greats who almost never get mentioned in these discussions (Erving, Cowens, Frazier, Barry, to name a few) who were incredible talents. But I'll stop now...

Cowens, Frazier, Barry are undeniably great players, but I think they're more "2nd-tier" legends with guys like Ewing, Robinson, Drexler, McHale, etc.

 

[br801]

Cowens, Frazier, Barry are undeniably great players, but I think they're more "2nd-tier" legends with guys like Ewing, Robinson, Drexler, McHale, etc.

I wasn't lobbying to put them in the top ten, just lamenting that many basketball fans today seemingly are unaware of their accomplishments.

 

[Alsacs]

It's an interesting question, for sure. The most the Celtics would've won is 2 more, right? They lost to the Lakers in 85 and 87 in the finals. It might be better to ask how many titles the Lakers win in the 80's if they need to come out of the East every year instead of the West.

Duncan had to face Shaq and Kobe throughout most of the early 2000's, I'm not sure how much better, if any, Magic's Lakers really were

Celtics had to go through the Sixers, Pistons, and even decent teams like the Bucks, Knicks. Your right that the Lakers would have had more diffculty if they had to deal with the East. The NBA flipped to the West after Michael Jordan retired and Kobe, Duncan dominated the NBA until recently now the dominant team has flipped East because of Lebron.

However, West was a good player, but Robertson was better IMO after reading Simmons book as well even though Simmons ranked West higher. You read the book so you will know the reasons I will say Robertson over West.

If the Celtics had the Lakers Western conference of the 1980s they would have had more titles. The Rockets which should have been a good challenger to the Lakers. but they fell apart when their backcourt had drug problems and contract problems,and the fact Ralph Sampson never became dominant. If the Rockets stayed together their are atleast 1 Pistons-Rockets, Bulls-Rockets finals.

 

[moqui]

It's an interesting question, for sure. The most the Celtics would've won is 2 more, right? They lost to the Lakers in 85 and 87 in the finals. It might be better to ask how many titles the Lakers win in the 80's if they need to come out of the East every year instead of the West.

Duncan had to face Shaq and Kobe throughout most of the early 2000's, I'm not sure how much better, if any, Magic's Lakers really were

and the late 00s, too. Overall, I think the Spurs got bounced 4 or 5 times by the Phil Jackson Lakers teams that were as good as any team in any era . . . all due respect to Magic, but Kobe is going to end up being remembered as the greatest Laker ever

 

[skurey]

/thread

 

[Eric15]

all due respect to Magic, but Kobe is going to end up being remembered as the greatest Laker ever

I think the Magic vs. Kobe debate for greatest Laker of all-time is a tough one.

Magic: considered by most the greatest point guard of all-time, 5 rings, 12X all-star, 3x finals mvp, 3x league MVP, 9x NBA all-first team
Kobe: arguably the 2nd most gifted scorer in NBA history after MJ, 5 rings, 15x all-star, 2x finals mvp, 1x league MVP, 10x NBA all-first team

I think folks over 40 would tend to favor Magic while people under 40 would favor Kobe.

 

[SWC75]

I think the Magic vs. Kobe debate for greatest Laker of all-time is a tough one.

Magic: considered by most the greatest point guard of all-time, 5 rings, 12X all-star, 3x finals mvp, 3x league MVP, 9x NBA all-first team
Kobe: arguably the 2nd most gifted scorer in NBA history after MJ, 5 rings, 15x all-star, 2x finals mvp, 1x league MVP, 10x NBA all-first team

I think folks over 40 would tend to favor Magic while people under 40 would favor Kobe.

Throw in Mikan, Elgin, Jerry and Kareem.

 

[Quazzum69]

Who has higher NBA Live ratings? Those things are always right

 

[MCC]

and the late 00s, too. Overall, I think the Spurs got bounced 4 or 5 times by the Phil Jackson Lakers teams that were as good as any team in any era . . . all due respect to Magic, but Kobe is going to end up being remembered as the greatest Laker ever

No way IMO.

Magic and Kareem are 1 and 2. Kobe or perhaps Shaq, perhaps Wilt... but I think Kobe slots in nicely at 3.

 

[Eric15]

No way IMO.

Magic and Kareem are 1 and 2. Kobe or perhaps Shaq, perhaps Wilt... but I think Kobe slots in nicely at 3.

I think Kareem would certainly be higher than Kobe on the all-time greats list. But in terms of greatest Laker specifically I would give the slight nod to Kobe because six of Kareem's best years statistically came in Milwaukee.

Shaq and Wilt didn't play in LA nearly long enough to be even in the same stratosphere as Kobe.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Celtics had to go through the Sixers, Pistons, and even decent teams like the Bucks, Knicks. Your right that the Lakers would have had more diffculty if they had to deal with the East. The NBA flipped to the West after Michael Jordan retired and Kobe, Duncan dominated the NBA until recently now the dominant team has flipped East because of Lebron.

However, West was a good player, but Robertson was better IMO after reading Simmons book as well even though Simmons ranked West higher. You read the book so you will know the reasons I will say Robertson over West.

If the Celtics had the Lakers Western conference of the 1980s they would have had more titles. The Rockets which should have been a good challenger to the Lakers. but they fell apart when their backcourt had drug problems and contract problems,and the fact Ralph Sampson never became dominant. If the Rockets stayed together their are atleast 1 Pistons-Rockets, Bulls-Rockets finals.

Team play back then was much better. Passing was so much better. Completely different games, the way basketball has changed - a few times - in my lifetime.

 

[Alsacs]

H

Team play back then was much better. Passing was so much better. Completely different games, the way basketball has changed - a few times - in my lifetime.

How does that change the fact the East was significantly more difficult to come out of than the West was. The Lakers dominated the 1980's and had no teams to challenge them in the West except the mid-1980s Houston Rockets who fell apart in 1987 when Robert Reid, John Lucas flamed out, and Ralph Sampson got injured and left Hakeem Olajuwon to carry that team that could have rivaled and dominated the Lakers when the Celtics had the Sixers in the first half of the 1980s and Pistons in the 2nd of the 1980s to go thru and even teams like the Milawukee Bucks and Bernard King New York Knicks would have been the biggest challengers to the Los Angeles Lakers, but they were 2nd round opponents for the Eastern teams like Boston Philly, Detroit.

 

[MCC]

I think Kareem would certainly be higher than Kobe on the all-time greats list. But in terms of greatest Laker specifically I would give the slight nod to Kobe because six of Kareem's best years statistically came in Milwaukee.

Shaq and Wilt didn't play in LA nearly long enough to be even in the same stratosphere as Kobe.

Kareem was NBA Finals MVP in 1985 against one of the best front lines of all time (Bird, McHale, Parish) at age 38. Prior stats aside, he owned the Cs (and their vaunted, overrated frontline in '85 and '87). I can post more later.

 

[moqui]

No way IMO.

Magic and Kareem are 1 and 2. Kobe or perhaps Shaq, perhaps Wilt... but I think Kobe slots in nicely at 3.

I can tell you for certain, having lived in LA for almost 20 years, the current pecking order is clear: it is Magic and Kobe 1A and 1B. West is 3, Kareem is 4, Shaq 5. The old timers always pipe up for Baylor and Wilt, but they don't crack the top 5 anymore

 

[Alsacs]

I can tell you for certain, having lived in LA for almost 20 years, the current pecking order is clear: it is Magic and Kobe 1A and 1B. West is 3, Kareem is 4, Shaq 5. The old timers always pipe up for Baylor and Wilt, but they don't crack the top 5 anymore

I would agree with the first 4, and understand Shaq won 3 rings, but reading about Elgin Baylor made me realize how great and underrated he was. He would go in my mid/high teens of alltime rankings, and would put him above Shaq in Lakerland because Shaq only played 8 years in Los Angeles. However, I am knit-picking and Elgin never won a single NBA title and that is what hurts him historically.

My top 5 Lakers
1. Magic Johnson
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(again he won 2 titles with the Bucks and not all of his success was in LA)
5. Elgin Baylor

My top 5 Celtics
1. Bill Russell
2. Larry Bird
3. John Havlicek
4. Bob Cousy
5. Paul Pierce

My top 5 Knicks
1. Clyde Frasier
2. Bill Bradley
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Dave DeBusschere
5.Willis Reed

hardest omissions Lakers-Shaq, Celtics-Kevin McHale Knicks-Bernard King