To those that say recruiting has not fallen off...

SUFan44

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I give you a little bit of background on Top 100 recruits we have taken in over the last 15 years...I understand rankings aren't perfect, but in basketball you get a better idea than you do with football, IMO, just due to tapes being available and the AAU circuit allowing comparisons that couldn't be made in football.

2005 - Eric Devendorf #33 (McD), Arinze Onuaku (#201)
2006 - Paul Harris #12, Mike Jones #38, Devin Brennan-McBride (#157)
2007 - Donte Greene #7 (#17 ESPN) (McD), Jonny Flynn #18 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Scoop Jardine #53 (#48 ESPN), Rick Jackson #65 (#51 ESPN), Kristof Ongenaet (#279), Sean Williams (#284)
2008 - Mookie Jones #43 (#67 ESPN), Kris Joseph #58 (#50 ESPN)
2009 - DaShonte Riley #87 (#58 ESPN), Brandon Triche (#122)
2010 - Fab Melo #14 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Dion Waiters #21 (#15 ESPN), C.J. Fair #81 (#63 ESPN), Baye Moussa Keita (#146)
2011 - Rakeem Christmas #23 (#20 ESPN) (McD), Michael Carter Williams #26 (#21 ESPN) (McD), Trevor Cooney #61 ESPN (#105)
2012 - Dajuan Coleman #22 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Jerami Grant #48 (#37 ESPN)
2013 - Tyler Ennis #23 (#20 ESPN), Tyler Roberson #41 (#31 ESPN), B.J. Johnson #89 (#82 ESPN), Ron Patterson (#175)
2014 - Chris McCullough #21 (#24 ESPN), Kaleb Joseph #48 (#50 ESPN)
2015 - Malachi Richardson #34 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Tyler Lydon #72 (#76 ESPN), Frank Howard #79 (#94 ESPN)
2016 - Tyus Battle #34 (#35 ESPN), Matt Moyer #66 (#74 ESPN), Taurean Thompson #74 (#75 ESPN)
2017 - Marek Dolezaj (#111, SLO), Oshae Brissett (#137, CAN), Bourama Sidibe (#190), Howard Washington (#289)
2018 - Jalen Carey #61 (#38 ESPN), Robert Braswell (#152), Buddy Boeheim (#347)
2019 - Brycen Goodine #93 (#75 ESPN), Quincy Guerrier (#114, CAN), Joe Girard (#205), Jon Bol Ajak (#404)

These rankings are using 24 7 & ESPN -- I know other sites may see things a bit differently, but to be consistent I used the same sites.

Over the past 3 years, we have had ZERO Consensus Top 50 recruits make it to campus, according to these site. Not all Top 50 guys make it -- look at Joseph & Roberson -- but certainly it gives you a better chance to make it than if you aren't. You can argue Brissett and Guerrier are Top 50 caliber, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.

Can you blame sanctions? Sure you can. But all of the guys that we have whiffed on? I don't think that's true at all.
 

Cusefan0307

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You realize why Guerrier is ranked where he is right? It’s because they barely played in the US. He’s 51st on 2 4 7 and Oshae was ranked 48.

Also still doesn’t change the fact we’ve had better classes than Virginia and Virginia Texh for the most part and they still are winning more than us.
 

SUFan44

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You realize why Guerrier is ranked where he is right? It’s because they barely played in the US. He’s 51st on 2 4 7 and Oshae was ranked 48.

Also still doesn’t change the fact we’ve had better classes than Virginia and Virginia Texh for the most part and they still are winning more than us.
Syracuse 2017 Basketball Commits

I don't see Brissett at #48...? Could be missing something.

Either way, we aren't recruiting at nearly the level we have in the past. That's pretty clear.
 

orangecuse

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Moyer at #66 & #74 respectively is dumbfounding to me. The guy is now 3 years removed from high school and he appears to be nothing more than a low mid major type player...at least from what I've seen of him to date.
 

Cusefan0307

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Syracuse 2017 Basketball Commits

I don't see Brissett at #48...? Could be missing something.

Either way, we aren't recruiting at nearly the level we have in the past. That's pretty clear.
Sorry 52...

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I'd argue by your data that we won a lot of games in the late 2000/early 2010's with guys we developed moreso than with Greene/Devendorf/Flynn.

That seems to be the bigger issue right now.

Why is Virginia winning with nobody in the top 50?

Deandre Hunter was a no name.
 

SUFan44

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Sorry 52...

View attachment 153832

I'd argue by your data that we won a lot of games in the late 2000/early 2010's with guys we developed moreso than with Greene/Devendorf/Flynn.

That seems to be the bigger issue right now.

Why is Virginia winning with nobody in the top 50?

Deandre Hunter was a no name.
Gotta choose one path or another. Either develop or recruit at a really high level where development isn't essential. If you do both, you're Duke/UNC/Kentucky. We have done neither, and it is showing.
 

orangecuse

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Sorry 52...

View attachment 153832

I'd argue by your data that we won a lot of games in the late 2000/early 2010's with guys we developed moreso than with Greene/Devendorf/Flynn.

That seems to be the bigger issue right now.

Why is Virginia winning with nobody in the top 50?

Deandre Hunter was a no name.
Kyle Guy was a Mickey D in 2016, ESPN #27. ESPN had Jerome at #43 & Hunter at #72. UVA keeps winning, IMO, because of stellar guard play, which is the most critical position(s) in the game.
 

supp

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Gotta choose one path or another. Either develop or recruit at a really high level where development isn't essential. If you do both, you're Duke/UNC/Kentucky. We have done neither, and it is showing.
Yeah, he's implying that it's got to be one thing or the other. Recruiting has fallen off AND development has fallen off. That's an indictment of the staff as a whole and the head man in particular.
 
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Cusefan0307

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Kyle Guy was a Mickey D in 2016, ESPN #27. ESPN had Jerome at #43 & Hunter at #72. UVA keeps winning, IMO, because of stellar guard play, which is the most critical position(s) in the game.
Quite the discrepancy for UVA with Guy at 27 for ESPN and having him at 36. We did get Battle that year however and Moyer was ridiculously ranked higher than Hunter.
 
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newmexicuse

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I did a quick synopsis. Of course, my memory could be off on a few guys.

I count of the top 50 recruits that 17 were eventual regular starters, albeit some not too successful such as Kaleb Joseph and only 2 top 50 who were not starters, both named Jones.

Of the 24 non top 50, I counted 12 who started and 12 who did not.

So, considering we now are three years and counting without a single Top 50 recruit, it tells me that we are being forced to play some guys as starters who really are not starting level talent, so no mystery as to why our program has descended to mediocrity.
 

RF2044

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I did a quick synopsis. Of course, my memory could be off on a few guys.

I count of the top 50 recruits that 17 were eventual regular starters, albeit some not too successful such as Kaleb Joseph and only 2 top 50 who were not starters, both named Jones.

Of the 24 non top 50, I counted 12 who started and 12 who did not.

So, considering we now are three years and counting without a single Top 50 recruit, it tells me that we are being forced to play some guys as starters who really are not starting level talent, so no mystery as to why our program has descended to mediocrity.
I'd caution people to also factor into their conclusions what the impact of limited scholarships meant over that three year span, and not just to chalk the decline entirely up to recruiting rankings.
 

orangecuse

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I'd caution people to also factor into their conclusions what the impact of limited scholarships meant over that three year span, and not just to chalk the decline entirely up to recruiting rankings.
No doubt, but besides the rankings of players, we shouldn't overlook on the recruiting misses either. When we held out for QG, we lost on Coleman who went to UT...just one example. And, as Alsacs has pointed out in some of his posts, we still had schollies to give in those sanctioned years as we did not fulfill them all. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but I don't know how anyone can argue that our recruiting hasn't dipped.
 

newmexicuse

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I'd caution people to also factor into their conclusions what the impact of limited scholarships meant over that three year span, and not just to chalk the decline entirely up to recruiting rankings.
The ranking of any particular recruit may or may not have significance. I think the numbers that I posted above show that getting Top 50 recruits will provide better results on a percentage basis over time.

Ironically, we seemed to be doing better in grabbing some Top 50's while we were on sanctions than we seem to be doing now, though, of course, depth was an issue during those years.

It is hard to argue that something is not smelly in Denmark when we have gone three classes in a row and counting without a single concensus Top 50 recruit.

I understand that we are not Duke or Kentucky in terms of recruiting, but, please, why can't we attract at least one top 50 kid per year. Is that too much to ask ?
 

newmexicuse

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*cough*darius bazely*cough*
Could there be a relationship between whatever made the G-League more attractive to Darius than coming to the Cuse and the reasons other Top 50's have not been committing in the first place ?

Just askin, not making any conclusions.
 

RF2044

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Could there be a relationship between whatever made the G-League more attractive to Darius than coming to the Cuse and the reasons other Top 50's have not been committing in the first place ?

Just askin, not making any conclusions.
Something else to consider, as well -- would we have landed more top 50 players if we weren't down three scholarships per year since 2015 through last year?
 

PeteCalvin

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Hate to say it, but we had more successful bigs when Bernie was around. That was a loss that the staff didn’t plan on.
 

RF2044

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No doubt, but besides the rankings of players, we shouldn't overlook on the recruiting misses either. When we held out for QG, we lost on Coleman who went to UT...just one example. And, as Alsacs has pointed out in some of his posts, we still had schollies to give in those sanctioned years as we did not fulfill them all. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but I don't know how anyone can argue that our recruiting hasn't dipped.
You raise a good point. It just goes to show that there isn't one, single magic bullet answer.

There were several issues converging that have resulted in the current status quo.
 

PeteCalvin

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Rak begs to differ.
But Rak was already very talented and driven to improve. And I think Hop worked with him, and you can’t get much more motivational than Hop. Just saying that Bernie was our big man coach for many years and developed a lot of players. The lack of a dominant big since 2012 may not be a coincidence.

We need a bonifide big man coach or someone who can lock up solid program guys on the recruiting trail. Hopefully GMac nails it with Tre.
 

FloridaFan

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I mean do you need top 50's in order to win? i read somewhere that UT doesnt have any top 50's or 100's and look at them. rankings aren't everything
 

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