To those that say recruiting has not fallen off...

[jdubs30]

I personally think a team of non-top 50 guys would beat the team with top 50 guys

 

[two3zone]

I personally think a team of non-top 50 guys would beat the team with top 50 guys

Must be why Duke is at the bottom of the ACC every year and BC is at the top.

 

[HOFCeluck]

*cough*darius bazely*cough*

I’ve been told he doesn’t count for...reasons.

 

[Sherman20]

You realize why Guerrier is ranked where he is right? It’s because they barely played in the US. He’s 51st on 2 4 7 and Oshae was ranked 48.

Also still doesn’t change the fact we’ve had better classes than Virginia and Virginia Texh for the most part and they still are winning more than us.

Exactly. Oshae and Quincy played their senior years in Canada, so they’re not eligible to be ranked in the ESPN 100 (and one of the other services), which drags down the 2 4 7 composite score that you used. If you look at 2 4 7’s own internal rankings (from their scouts), both Oshae and Quincy are top 50. We’ve focused on Canadian recruits lately because we have a nice pipeline going there. Also, if you look at ESPN rankings, Jalen is top 50. So we’ve basically had top 50 guys the past 3 seasons.

All that said, recruiting has fallen off a bit. We were getting top 25 guys semi-regularly. But JB doesn’t go out on the road and recruit much save for AAU season, and our best recruiter and talent evaluator, Hop, departed. Autry is very good and I think he’ll start reeling in more top 25-50 guys the next few years. One thing that’s missing from these rankings is transfers. Autry brought in Mike Gbinije and Andrew White—and both of those guys were key pieces.

 

[kuethstheman]

As a reality check, did someone say recruiting is not down?

 

[SUFan44]

As a reality check, did someone say recruiting is not down?

Certain fragments believe that it is still good enough. I, clearly, do not agree.

 

[Funk Doc]

Just my two cents. I agree that there’s been a dip, but my biggest problem is that the game has changed over the years and we haven’t. We can’t continue to target long “athletes” with obvious fundamental flaws in their games and still expect to compete. Thats why I do have a good outlook with our incoming class. Looks like more polished basketball players, as opposed to zone fits.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

We didn't recruit Bazeley.
If Mike Gbinije isn't on the list, Bazely prolly shouldn't be included.
Seemed like the intent of the OP was to represent HS kids we targeted, went after, sold, and closed, no?

I don't know how much sanctions hurt us. Maybe we had a little bit of stink on us, but bigger stinks haven't seemed to hurt Kansas, Arizona, Louisville, etc. People suggest that scholarship reductions have hurt, but wouldn't they more affect the lower end of the recruiting class? Like, we would still be going after the top guys, and recruiting fewer of the 'filler?'

The coaching indecision seems damaging. The constant harping by commentators about us having the slowest pace of play seemed damaging. Missing out on two 'sure things' in Quade and Thomas Bryant hurt. Maybe, if you're generous, you call those two 'outliers' and suggest that this last few years of suck aren't really indicative of anything.

 

[MikeDamone]

Guys...we're a selector school guys

 

[jdubs30]

Must be why Duke is at the bottom of the ACC every year and BC is at the top.

lol I meant our guys

Scoop, Rautins, Triche, Fair, Southerland, Wes, KrisJo, Lydon, Rick, AO.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

So, if you:
A. Discount all Canadian recruits
B. Do not factor in transfers, ie Hughes/PC
C. Consider 2019 as complete

You can then arrive at some conclusion you want.

 

[dasher]

Hate to say it, but we had more successful bigs when Bernie was around. That was a loss that the staff didn’t plan on.

bernie had nothing to do with it. He was a horrible recruiter and a over rated coach of big men.

 

[dasher]

I give you a little bit of background on Top 100 recruits we have taken in over the last 15 years...I understand rankings aren't perfect, but in basketball you get a better idea than you do with football, IMO, just due to tapes being available and the AAU circuit allowing comparisons that couldn't be made in football.

2005 - Eric Devendorf #33 (McD), Arinze Onuaku (#201)
2006 - Paul Harris #12, Mike Jones #38, Devin Brennan-McBride (#157)
2007 - Donte Greene #7 (#17 ESPN) (McD), Jonny Flynn #18 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Scoop Jardine #53 (#48 ESPN), Rick Jackson #65 (#51 ESPN), Kristof Ongenaet (#279), Sean Williams (#284)
2008 - Mookie Jones #43 (#67 ESPN), Kris Joseph #58 (#50 ESPN)
2009 - DaShonte Riley #87 (#58 ESPN), Brandon Triche (#122)
2010 - Fab Melo #14 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Dion Waiters #21 (#15 ESPN), C.J. Fair #81 (#63 ESPN), Baye Moussa Keita (#146)
2011 - Rakeem Christmas #23 (#20 ESPN) (McD), Michael Carter Williams #26 (#21 ESPN) (McD), Trevor Cooney #61 ESPN (#105)
2012 - Dajuan Coleman #22 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Jerami Grant #48 (#37 ESPN)
2013 - Tyler Ennis #23 (#20 ESPN), Tyler Roberson #41 (#31 ESPN), B.J. Johnson #89 (#82 ESPN), Ron Patterson (#175)
2014 - Chris McCullough #21 (#24 ESPN), Kaleb Joseph #48 (#50 ESPN)
2015 - Malachi Richardson #34 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Tyler Lydon #72 (#76 ESPN), Frank Howard #79 (#94 ESPN)
2016 - Tyus Battle #34 (#35 ESPN), Matt Moyer #66 (#74 ESPN), Taurean Thompson #74 (#75 ESPN)
2017 - Marek Dolezaj (#111, SLO), Oshae Brissett (#137, CAN), Bourama Sidibe (#190), Howard Washington (#289)
2018 - Jalen Carey #61 (#38 ESPN), Robert Braswell (#152), Buddy Boeheim (#347)
2019 - Brycen Goodine #93 (#75 ESPN), Quincy Guerrier (#114, CAN), Joe Girard (#205), Jon Bol Ajak (#404)

These rankings are using 24 7 & ESPN -- I know other sites may see things a bit differently, but to be consistent I used the same sites.

Over the past 3 years, we have had ZERO Consensus Top 50 recruits make it to campus, according to these site. Not all Top 50 guys make it -- look at Joseph & Roberson -- but certainly it gives you a better chance to make it than if you aren't. You can argue Brissett and Guerrier are Top 50 caliber, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.

Can you blame sanctions? Sure you can. But all of the guys that we have whiffed on? I don't think that's true at all.

Who exactly said that recruiting hasn't fallen off. We lost 3 ships. We were limited to two coaches on the road at any time vs our rivals having 4. How could it not have fallen off?

 

[General Joe]

So, if you:
A. Discount all Canadian recruits
B. Do not factor in transfers, ie Hughes/PC
C. Consider 2019 as complete

You can then arrive at some conclusion you want.

Do you think our recruting has been elite, or even good?

 

[chugg21]

Rak begs to differ.

Rak was basically Chukwu until year 4. He was a 5 and 5 guy up through his Jr year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

bernie had nothing to do with it. He was a horrible recruiter and a over rated coach of big men.

Dude didn’t do anything at the end besides hold a clipboard.

 

[chugg21]

So, if you:
A. Discount all Canadian recruits
B. Do not factor in transfers, ie Hughes/PC
C. Consider 2019 as complete

You can then arrive at some conclusion you want.

If you discount that we currently have 1 above average ACC starter on the entire roster you can arrive at some conclusion as well.

 

[chugg21]

I give you a little bit of background on Top 100 recruits we have taken in over the last 15 years...I understand rankings aren't perfect, but in basketball you get a better idea than you do with football, IMO, just due to tapes being available and the AAU circuit allowing comparisons that couldn't be made in football.

2005 - Eric Devendorf #33 (McD), Arinze Onuaku (#201)
2006 - Paul Harris #12, Mike Jones #38, Devin Brennan-McBride (#157)
2007 - Donte Greene #7 (#17 ESPN) (McD), Jonny Flynn #18 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Scoop Jardine #53 (#48 ESPN), Rick Jackson #65 (#51 ESPN), Kristof Ongenaet (#279), Sean Williams (#284)
2008 - Mookie Jones #43 (#67 ESPN), Kris Joseph #58 (#50 ESPN)
2009 - DaShonte Riley #87 (#58 ESPN), Brandon Triche (#122)
2010 - Fab Melo #14 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Dion Waiters #21 (#15 ESPN), C.J. Fair #81 (#63 ESPN), Baye Moussa Keita (#146)
2011 - Rakeem Christmas #23 (#20 ESPN) (McD), Michael Carter Williams #26 (#21 ESPN) (McD), Trevor Cooney #61 ESPN (#105)
2012 - Dajuan Coleman #22 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Jerami Grant #48 (#37 ESPN)
2013 - Tyler Ennis #23 (#20 ESPN), Tyler Roberson #41 (#31 ESPN), B.J. Johnson #89 (#82 ESPN), Ron Patterson (#175)
2014 - Chris McCullough #21 (#24 ESPN), Kaleb Joseph #48 (#50 ESPN)
2015 - Malachi Richardson #34 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Tyler Lydon #72 (#76 ESPN), Frank Howard #79 (#94 ESPN)
2016 - Tyus Battle #34 (#35 ESPN), Matt Moyer #66 (#74 ESPN), Taurean Thompson #74 (#75 ESPN)
2017 - Marek Dolezaj (#111, SLO), Oshae Brissett (#137, CAN), Bourama Sidibe (#190), Howard Washington (#289)
2018 - Jalen Carey #61 (#38 ESPN), Robert Braswell (#152), Buddy Boeheim (#347)
2019 - Brycen Goodine #93 (#75 ESPN), Quincy Guerrier (#114, CAN), Joe Girard (#205), Jon Bol Ajak (#404)

These rankings are using 24 7 & ESPN -- I know other sites may see things a bit differently, but to be consistent I used the same sites.

Over the past 3 years, we have had ZERO Consensus Top 50 recruits make it to campus, according to these site. Not all Top 50 guys make it -- look at Joseph & Roberson -- but certainly it gives you a better chance to make it than if you aren't. You can argue Brissett and Guerrier are Top 50 caliber, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.

Can you blame sanctions? Sure you can. But all of the guys that we have whiffed on? I don't think that's true at all.

What I draw from this is that since 2012 we have basically only had 1 guy turn into a multi-year quality starter. Lydon was a solid 2 year contributor. Frank, Roberson and Oshae have been multi-year starters but I wouldn't use the word quality with them. Other than that there is a mix of 1 and dones, guys that have transferred out and others that are just mediocre at this level.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Do you think our recruting has been elite, or even good?

I think recruiting has been decent, pretty good. Comparable to before.

I think it is improving now, mostly with now getting good program 4 year kids - this should help for SU to see dividends coming up. Eli/Buddy/JG3.

I'm hoping 2019 is not done and a good center can be added.

 

[RF2044]

I think it is improving now, mostly with now getting good program 4 year kids - this should help for SU to see dividends coming up. Eli/Buddy/JG3.

I'm hoping 2019 is not done and a good center can be added.

Very good point about adding quality four year guys. Having those extra scholarships back allows us to lay that foundation, and to weather early departures.

Our program has traditionally been best when we've had a quality core of stable system fits, supplemented by a dash of higher rated players.

 

[SUFan44]

So, if you:
A. Discount all Canadian recruits
B. Do not factor in transfers, ie Hughes/PC
C. Consider 2019 as complete

You can then arrive at some conclusion you want.

A) Not discounting Canadian recruits. Said so in my post -- Guerrier/Brissett could possibly be considered Top 50-75.

B) Hughes had every chance to be rated as a recruit. He had offers from Iona, East Carolina, Fairfield and Iona. He is a slightly above average offensive player. I have seen no evidence that he is an above average ACC starter at this point in his career.

Pascual Chukwu was ranked #67 at 24 7 and #61 by ESPN coming out of high school. He subsequently averaged 9.9 minutes per game at Providence and transferred. He's had injuries and has shown flashes, but as a 5th-year senior he should be better and is not even close to an average ACC center.

C) I hope we get Tre Mitchell -- if we do, then I'll be interested to see how capable he is of playing right away. I like Guerrier a lot, and we'll see about Goodine/Girard. But I was excited about Jalen Carey, too. I was excited about Brissett's sophomore season, I was excited about Sidibe after seeing him play in the Jordan Regional Game.

Overall, if you think our roster is an above-average roster in the ACC then I'm not sure what to tell you. We are on the bottom half of the league in terms of players on the team. We have lost to Old Dominion, Georgia Tech (2x), St. Bonaventure, UConn (2x), Boston College, St. John's (2x), Georgetown (2x) over the last four years.

That's wayyyy too many losses to programs that, by all accounts, we should be better than. We have more money, we have better facilities, we have better fans, we're in better leagues than the non-conference foes and we have more pros than most.

I hope we go on a run and they prove me wrong. I really do. I just don't have much faith that it will happen.

 

[General Joe]

I give you a little bit of background on Top 100 recruits we have taken in over the last 15 years...I understand rankings aren't perfect, but in basketball you get a better idea than you do with football, IMO, just due to tapes being available and the AAU circuit allowing comparisons that couldn't be made in football.

2005 - Eric Devendorf #33 (McD), Arinze Onuaku (#201)
2006 - Paul Harris #12, Mike Jones #38, Devin Brennan-McBride (#157)
2007 - Donte Greene #7 (#17 ESPN) (McD), Jonny Flynn #18 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Scoop Jardine #53 (#48 ESPN), Rick Jackson #65 (#51 ESPN), Kristof Ongenaet (#279), Sean Williams (#284)
2008 - Mookie Jones #43 (#67 ESPN), Kris Joseph #58 (#50 ESPN)
2009 - DaShonte Riley #87 (#58 ESPN), Brandon Triche (#122)
2010 - Fab Melo #14 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Dion Waiters #21 (#15 ESPN), C.J. Fair #81 (#63 ESPN), Baye Moussa Keita (#146)
2011 - Rakeem Christmas #23 (#20 ESPN) (McD), Michael Carter Williams #26 (#21 ESPN) (McD), Trevor Cooney #61 ESPN (#105)
2012 - Dajuan Coleman #22 (#14 ESPN) (McD), Jerami Grant #48 (#37 ESPN)
2013 - Tyler Ennis #23 (#20 ESPN), Tyler Roberson #41 (#31 ESPN), B.J. Johnson #89 (#82 ESPN), Ron Patterson (#175)
2014 - Chris McCullough #21 (#24 ESPN), Kaleb Joseph #48 (#50 ESPN)
2015 - Malachi Richardson #34 (#23 ESPN) (McD), Tyler Lydon #72 (#76 ESPN), Frank Howard #79 (#94 ESPN)
2016 - Tyus Battle #34 (#35 ESPN), Matt Moyer #66 (#74 ESPN), Taurean Thompson #74 (#75 ESPN)
2017 - Marek Dolezaj (#111, SLO), Oshae Brissett (#137, CAN), Bourama Sidibe (#190), Howard Washington (#289)
2018 - Jalen Carey #61 (#38 ESPN), Robert Braswell (#152), Buddy Boeheim (#347)
2019 - Brycen Goodine #93 (#75 ESPN), Quincy Guerrier (#114, CAN), Joe Girard (#205), Jon Bol Ajak (#404)

These rankings are using 24 7 & ESPN -- I know other sites may see things a bit differently, but to be consistent I used the same sites.

Over the past 3 years, we have had ZERO Consensus Top 50 recruits make it to campus, according to these site. Not all Top 50 guys make it -- look at Joseph & Roberson -- but certainly it gives you a better chance to make it than if you aren't. You can argue Brissett and Guerrier are Top 50 caliber, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.

Can you blame sanctions? Sure you can. But all of the guys that we have whiffed on? I don't think that's true at all.

This is a great post and basically illustrates the point that our recruting has fallen WAY off. Why the hell are we even giving a guy that got benched on his high school team a Scholarship. He should be a PWO. In the past our classes would consist of top 100 players with one throw in guy in the top 150 (Patterson 2013, BMK2010) now it seems we are just getting fringe top 100 players and on top 50 guy the last 3 classes. This is not a mirage but rather a clear trend. We can make excuses and blame a guy being from Canada for low rankings etc etc but it also is now translating on the court with blowout losses and embarrassing losses to the likes of ODU GT VT FLST and others. Got to step up the recruiting. What we are doing now just isn't working.

 

[General Joe]

A) Not discounting Canadian recruits. Said so in my post -- Guerrier/Brissett could possibly be considered Top 50-75.

B) Hughes had every chance to be rated as a recruit. He had offers from Iona, East Carolina, Fairfield and Iona. He is a slightly above average offensive player. I have seen no evidence that he is an above average ACC starter at this point in his career.

Pascual Chukwu was ranked #67 at 24 7 and #61 by ESPN coming out of high school. He subsequently averaged 9.9 minutes per game at Providence and transferred. He's had injuries and has shown flashes, but as a 5th-year senior he should be better and is not even close to an average ACC center.

C) I hope we get Tre Mitchell -- if we do, then I'll be interested to see how capable he is of playing right away. I like Guerrier a lot, and we'll see about Goodine/Girard. But I was excited about Jalen Carey, too. I was excited about Brissett's sophomore season, I was excited about Sidibe after seeing him play in the Jordan Regional Game.

Overall, if you think our roster is an above-average roster in the ACC then I'm not sure what to tell you. We are on the bottom half of the league in terms of players on the team. We have lost to Old Dominion, Georgia Tech (2x), St. Bonaventure, UConn (2x), Boston College, St. John's (2x), Georgetown (2x) over the last four years.

That's wayyyy too many losses to programs that, by all accounts, we should be better than. We have more money, we have better facilities, we have better fans, we're in better leagues than the non-conference foes and we have more pros than most.

I hope we go on a run and they prove me wrong. I really do. I just don't have much faith that it will happen.

Agree 100% i would just add the embarrassing BLOWOUT losses we have had this year. I am also worried about Jalen Carry, he has that look in his eyes of a kid getting readycto transfer... and i probably wouldnt blame him

 

[OrangeDW]

Agree 100% i would just add the embarrassing BLOWOUT losses we have had this year. I am also worried about Jalen Carry, he has that look in his eyes of a kid getting readycto transfer... and i probably wouldnt blame him

These posts about the looks on kids faces, in their eyes, etc. gotta stop.

Someone was just reading into Battle’s deepest thoughts by the look on his face a few games ago. Too dramatic for my tastes.

 

[MSOrange]

These posts about the looks on kids faces, in their eyes, etc. gotta stop.

Someone was just reading into Battle’s deepest thoughts by the look on his face a few games ago. Too dramatic for my tastes.

Agreed. Not saying I even disagree with a lot of what they are saying, but that's just throwing crap out there to pile on.