Transfers

[SoBeCuse]

Watching the Oregon game the other night, I kept thinking how THAT is the offense we should have. Multiple shooters, but multiple guys who can also do stuff off of the bounce and take it to the basket... which makes them very difficult to guard.

The last few years, seems like we're improved as a shooting team, but the ball handling has tapered off dramatically [outside of one or maybe two guys per season]. Makes us too one dimensional. Conversely, four out of Oregon's starters can shoot and excel taking it to the tin. They make people pay for overplaying them defensively or jumping out at them to challenge the shot. They also have multiple guys who can do something when it gets late in the shot clock.

Spot on. Even Michigan. They had better guard experience and continuity than SU, but, Irvin/Walton Jr./Duncan Robinson/Abdur-Rahkman could do the same and then Wagner and DJ Wilson could score effectively in the paint...those two are the reason they beat Louisville. Love watching that Bell on Oregon play also.

 

[SWC75]

SU is largely a program school and the quality of JB's zone is often tied to how much experience the players have playing it. It's hard to field a good zone when 4 of your 5 starters have never played it before. Continuity and cohesion is pretty important to JB's system and carrying over experienced players from year to year has been a pretty big problem lately due to the combination of players leaving school early for the draft and other players failing to develop and transferring.

The grad transfer market is tough because 1) you might be getting a kid that has only played m2m for his entire college career and now has to learn a pretty complex defensive system in a short period of time, and 2) you really have no idea who is going to be on the market starting in March/April, so the quality of the grad transfer pool can be vastly different from year to year, and you only have a small window to shop for them.

What happens if no decent 5th year PG is available? You're in a bind if you're relying on that as a primary recruiting tool. Best as a stop-gap measure or fill-in for a single roster spot but not sure it's a great strategy if it turns into an annual thing where we need to grab 2+ per year... It worked out quite well this season (we would have been TERRIBLE without Gillon and White), but it also had some downside as we saw how long it took those 2 to get comfortable in the zone.

Mason

High school recruiting = the minor leagues

JUCO and undergrad transfers are kind of like trades, except we don't give anything up. You wonder why they are available. You are getting players with big league experience and you hope you come out ahead.

Grad transfers = free agents. if they can fulfill a specific need, fine. But you don't want to fill your line-up with them. If you do you have a collection of players more than team.

 

[iommi]

Our problem this year wasn't grad transfers, (without whom we wouldn't won 10 games). It was defense. If we are better next year it will be because of defense.

Both grad transfers were subpar defenders.

 

[orangehomer]

first, they were already gone. second, none of them were as good as the players we got. As I just said, it was our own Orangemen that gave us NOTHING that got us in the soup. If Jb had benched Roberson and Howard at the start of the season, we would have made the tournament.

they were gone because they were run out with the objective being to fill their slots with better players. and the jury is still out as to whether they were better or worse than the guys we brought in. please keep in mind that i have tried not to be critical of the players, rather i have been critical of the staff for getting themselves into this predicament. gillon and white were what they were. roberson, for instance, was a starter on a final four team. white is a career starter on NIT teams. it is what it is.

 

[dasher]

they were gone because they were run out with the objective being to fill their slots with better players. and the jury is still out as to whether they were better or worse than the guys we brought in. please keep in mind that i have tried not to be critical of the players, rather i have been critical of the staff for getting themselves into this predicament. gillon and white were what they were. roberson, for instance, was a starter on a final four team. white is a career starter on NIT teams. it is what it is.

lol White got a ship to Kansas. he played one year at Nebraska and one year here. Don't bring that stuff here. It should be beneath you. Roberson was horrible this year. White was 3rd team All ACC. The jury is only out with you. Everyone else here knows that Gillon and white helped this team this year and without them, we wouldn't have made the CBI or whatever that tournament is called now.

 

[MSOrange]

lol White got a ship to Kansas. he played one year at Nebraska and one year here. Don't bring that stuff here. It should be beneath you. Roberson was horrible this year. White was 3rd team All ACC. The jury is only out with you. Everyone else here knows that Gillon and white helped this team this year and without them, we wouldn't have made the CBI or whatever that tournament is called now.

I think his point with that last post was to compare Kaleb Joseph and BJ Johnson to Gillon and White. But it's hard to tell when really his only point is to constantly take shots at Gillon and White.

 

[dasher]

I think his point with that last post was to compare Kaleb Joseph and BJ Johnson to Gillon and White. But it's hard to tell when really his only point is to constantly take shots at Gillon and White.

He believes that we should have kept those guys. If we did, we wouldn't have taken Gillon and White. I like BJ. But White was a better fit for this team. And Gillon was much better than Joseph. Could Gillon have improved if the staff hadn't given up on him? I don't know. Nobody here does. The guys who get paid to make those decisions didn't think so.

 

[MSOrange]

He believes that we should have kept those guys. If we did, we wouldn't have taken Gillon and White. I like BJ. But White was a better fit for this team. And Gillon was much better than Joseph. Could Gillon have improved if the staff hadn't given up on him? I don't know. Nobody here does. The guys who get paid to make those decisions didn't think so.

Totally agree. I'm on your side. I'm sick of his agenda.

 

[NineOneSeven]

they were gone because they were run out with the objective being to fill their slots with better players. and the jury is still out as to whether they were better or worse than the guys we brought in. please keep in mind that i have tried not to be critical of the players, rather i have been critical of the staff for getting themselves into this predicament. gillon and white were what they were. roberson, for instance, was a starter on a final four team. white is a career starter on NIT teams. it is what it is.

If you thought Andrew white was a problem this year... And I'm legit laughing while typing this... The guy who literally won us games by making difficult shots in big situations while our offense did nothing, not to mention that shot to tie the Uconn game, and singlehandedly win us the ga tech game to give us a shot at a bid while scoring 40 and essentially locking up the syracuse 3 point record for a year, then I will never take another post of yours seriously for the rest of this forum's eternity.

It's literally insane. The guy played every single minute since the Cold War and exceeded expectations by far imo.

Stop posting.

 

[SoBeCuse]

He believes that we should have kept those guys. If we did, we wouldn't have taken Gillon and White. I like BJ. But White was a better fit for this team. And Gillon was much better than Joseph. Could Gillon have improved if the staff hadn't given up on him? I don't know. Nobody here does. The guys who get paid to make those decisions didn't think so.

It's a no brainer. The Syracuse core guys this year of Howard/Roberson/Coleman gave us nothing. Nothing! The Syracuse guys who left gave us nothing. That's 5 guys at least who didn't give you basically anything in two seasons. Just can't have that anywhere. At Syracuse or Kent State. Roberson I still am baffled by. I saw with some of these fellow bubble teams like Xavier, USC, and Kansas St.; power forwards we would dream of having and what we hoped Roberson would become. Oh well.

 

[NineOneSeven]

It's a no brainer. The Syracuse core guys this year of Howard/Roberson/Coleman gave us nothing. Nothing! The Syracuse guys who left gave us nothing. That's 5 guys at least who didn't give you basically anything in two seasons. Just can't have that anywhere. At Syracuse or Kent State. Roberson I still am baffled by. I saw with some of these fellow bubble teams like Xavier, USC, and Kansas St.; power forwards we would dream of having and what we hoped Roberson would become. Oh well.

Watch the tourney games last year. Completely different player.

Roberson was the most robotic offensive player in d1 this season. I Actually don't think I'm exaggerating

 

[orangehomer]

If you thought Andrew white was a problem this year... And I'm legit laughing while typing this... The guy who literally won us games by making difficult shots in big situations while our offense did nothing, not to mention that shot to tie the Uconn game, and singlehandedly win us the ga tech game to give us a shot at a bid while scoring 40 and essentially locking up the syracuse 3 point record for a year, then I will never take another post of yours seriously for the rest of this forum's eternity.

It's literally insane. The guy played every single minute since the Cold War and exceeded expectations by far imo.

Stop posting.

who said that i care if you take any of my posts seriously?

 

[SoBeCuse]

Watch the tourney games last year. Completely different player.

Roberson was the most robotic offensive player in d1 this season. I Actually don't think I'm exaggerating

Agreed. Not sure how much more scoring aptitude he provided last year but no question he was more plugged in and rebounded better.

 

[orangehomer]

He believes that we should have kept those guys. If we did, we wouldn't have taken Gillon and White. I like BJ. But White was a better fit for this team. And Gillon was much better than Joseph. Could Gillon have improved if the staff hadn't given up on him? I don't know. Nobody here does. The guys who get paid to make those decisions didn't think so.

i don't inherently believe we would have been better with the other guys. i am saying that i would have rather taken my chances with the other guys than the grad guys. you guys are acting like i am saying something contraversial but i really dont think i am. actually i am pretty surprised by the backlash. andrew white is the best player on an NIT team. that's who he is, there is no shame in it, id love to be that good.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Completely correct. Just like scholarship players: Kaleb Joseph, Ron Patterson, BJ Johnson, and everyone's favorite whipping boy, Devin Brennan-McBride. So if we can't advance the program with our own 4th year layers, we're committed to doing it with someone else's. Either that or we go the Paypal Cal route.

Devin Brenan-McBride had a bum shoulder and was unable to play.

 

[Cowtown]

Devin Brenan-McBride had a bum shoulder and was unable to play.

I'm aware of that. It still fits into the point, which was that sometimes scholarship players work out, sometimes they don't - regardless of why.

 

[orangehomer]

He believes that we should have kept those guys. If we did, we wouldn't have taken Gillon and White. I like BJ. But White was a better fit for this team. And Gillon was much better than Joseph. Could Gillon have improved if the staff hadn't given up on him? I don't know. Nobody here does. The guys who get paid to make those decisions didn't think so.

i think i figured it out, you prefer to eulogize the team based on their accomplishments, which is admirable and totally fine. whereas in your mind, i have probably been too focused on their shortcomings. you are at a point where you are ready to move on but i am still kind of picking at it a bit. its reasonable and i should move on.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Both grad transfers were subpar defenders.

Truth

Also doesn't mean 2 grad transfers this year will struggle on D. Of those who we would currently have starting/playing major minutes next year, only Tyus, TT and I guess Frank will have played significant minutes in our D. It's going to be an issue again next year barring getting some kids that pick it up immediately.

Because of that, I think we need to hit the grad market heavy for proven scorers and hope we can land Tucker, as well.

 

[GooseMutt]

You don't reject a highly rated freshman for a grad transfer. But when you're in a bind, which we were and possibly are, you take what you can get.

Andrew white had a historically great year for us. It's masked because we were overall, very average. The dude killed it. And gillon singlehandedly won us games.

Wonder if some transfers are concerned/ turned off coming in to play unfamiliar zone after watching Gillon And White struggle to assimilate this year early in season. Not an easy task obviously

 

[Cowtown]

Wonder if some transfers are concerned/ turned off coming in to play unfamiliar zone after watching Gillon And White struggle to assimilate this year early in season. Not an easy task obviously

I think the problem is obvious: Gillon and White came to SU to advance their chances of getting into a career after college. Boeheim needed "shovel ready" players to help him win games. What actually occurred, then, was something other than a meeting of the minds. It's a risk you take when you go with grad transfers. :noidea:

 

[RF2044]

I think the problem is obvious: Gillon and White came to SU to advance their chances of getting into a career after college. Boeheim needed "shovel ready" players to help him win games. What actually occurred, then, was something other than a meeting of the minds. It's a risk you take when you go with grad transfers. :noidea:

I don't think that is an "obvious" conclusion at all. Both of these kids transferred here to experience big time college basketball, and to hitch their wagons to a team that had a chance to make a deep tournament run. Sure, they both want to play professionally, but who wouldn't? It isn't like they game here and did stuff outside of the team's best interests to showcase their wares--quite the opposite. Both players were hard workers and coachable to a fault, and didn't cause issues on or off the court. They fit in well and were well liked by coaches and teammates alike.

They weren't great defenders--that is true--but I don't think that it is remotely accurate to suggest that they were on different pages than Boeheim. That's not what happened.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Wonder if some transfers are concerned/ turned off coming in to play unfamiliar zone after watching Gillon And White struggle to assimilate this year early in season. Not an easy task obviously

I would assume they will see minutes played, points scored and shots taken more than anything, especially over defensive struggles early in the season. Any defensive related concerns would be solely about having to play zone, instead of how 2 grad transfers struggled there, IMO.

 

[Carolinasu]

Tucker,Ayala and Duarte would be fine. 2 of the 3 would be great even. To me I am over grad transfers and having more than 1 of the one and done guys at a time. A juco like ongenot would be fine ( he could give us 2 years) we need a nice core of players that are going to be here 3 and 4 years mixed in with a one and done talent like the scoop, onuaku, rautins, rick jackson,Wes Johnson team. I think they are starting to collect some of those types and offering others such as Ayala and Williams kid from Rochester. I would much rather have them or Buddy Boeheim for 4 years than c.mccullough for 13 games. Just my 2 cents but I am definitely more invested when I know our nucleus of players for 3 or 4 years.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

Tucker,Ayala and Duarte would be fine. 2 of the 3 would be great even. To me I am over grad transfers and having more than 1 of the one and done guys at a time. A juco like ongenot would be fine ( he could give us 2 years) we need a nice core of players that are going to be here 3 and 4 years mixed in with a one and done talent like the scoop, onuaku, rautins, rick jackson,Wes Johnson team. I think they are starting to collect some of those types and offering others such as Ayala and Williams kid from Rochester. I would much rather have them or Buddy Boeheim for 4 years than c.mccullough for 13 games. Just my 2 cents but I am definitely more invested when I know our nucleus of players for 3 or 4 years.

If people are "ok" with this, than please don't post about the team and results that happen next year (aka crying and bitching)...I'm all for building the program back up with program guys and I agree we have a group starting to round out with them but we have to bring in some immediate impact players like the grad transfer market to make us competitive.

Not a single out to you...I've seen a few people keep talking bad about grad transfers and all that...Just expect a worse season than the current if we don't go down those routes.

 

[Carolinasu]

Who is batching? Not me I was just saying my preference.