Two trains of thought approaching from opposite directions

[OrangeFoo]

I think saying Syracuse basketball is going to be "fine" really depends on how you define "fine"... if fine is 10+ loss seasons with no chance to compete for a conference championship and living on or a loss away from the bubble, then you are probably right the program will be fine. If fine is a legit top 15 program with under 10 losses a year and a top 4 finish in the conference is fine then we are a VERY long way away from being fine. Our recruiting is going to continue to be non-elite until we address the question of JB's retirement and who the next coach is. Our D is going to continue to be bombed to death from any team who has a decent offensive system that can generate good shots - something the majority of ACC teams have. Our O is going to be screwed until we can find a legit set of guards who can actually create offense and come up with a system that doesn't depend on having elite talent or until we get some elite talent. Is Guerrier that talent?

My hope is that Carey makes miraculous off-season transformation into a legit high-major point guard or Goodine can do it, JG3 doesn't lose his magic shooting touch, Dolezaj sticks around and puts on 20 lbs, Buddy spends the summer training with the football team to become more explosive, Brissett sticks around campus and sees a sports psychologist, Guerrier can score 15 ppg, and the can get something with functionality between a trash can and a scarecrow holding up a broom at center. IF they can get these things to happen I think we will be in for a pleasant surprise next season.

 

[upperdeck]

are we going to play full out deny, no help man? cause that what it would have taken to stop 6-7 of those 3s. who had more wide open 3s virg or SU?

 

[KevMonstah]

Have you ever considered that both seasons were great years?
<snip>
Over the last 20 years, you’ve seen all of your hometown teams win at least one championship and your alma mater make three trips to the Final Four, including one title. Why are you even complaining?

Because as fans we want more. We want more from teams that JB seems very happy with to start
the year than going 21-14 and losing in the 2nd round of the NITs. We want more than a current 19-11
record with a team whose issues last year of depth and lack of shooters was addressed by healing
and the newcomers, yet still runs a stagnant offense and is worse defensively. We want more than,
if you project this year out to 22-13 (beat Clemson, 1-1 in ACC and NCAA), a collective record of
105-69 over the last five years, a 21-14 average. We want more than "winning ugly" from a team
and a coach who used to play a fantasticly fun game to watch. Tired of watching this team beat inferior
teams 62-47 or 59-45 or 63-55, which is certainly better than losing to inferior teams 51-49
or 55-51 or 60-57. And you want more than an iso offense which shows little overall improvement
despite adding shooters to space it. You can live with a zone, as long as it's played with intensity.
You can live with losing to teams that are better, but, as other threads have pointed out, UVa's players
are lesser ranked than SU's, yet UVa is a far superior team to SU over the last several years, NCAA
tourney results notwithstanding. That team, and others, seem to get more out of their players than
this program does. And that's what is a problem to fans. You knew going into yesterday's game that
UVa could hit 3s, and that Kyle Guy shoots a percentage that would lead the ACC with more
attempts ... so you allow him ten 3s? You knew Jerome makes 40+% and Hunter makes almost 50%,
and you let them shoot the number they did? You get beat, you get beat, but don't lose because you
allow a team to do exactly what they're best at, and while it's going on, make no adjustments
whatsoever to stop it.

If the goal is to muddle along, and hope for a bubble selection to take advantage of maybe a team
that doesn't see the zone, or hope for an upset to knock a higher seed out of your way, or hope
for a team whose coach to get befuddled, that's great, and you know, that will probably work some
of the time, but that is not a successful template for any team.

Kev

 

[Zelda Zonk]

First train of thought:
“Look at what we did against Wake. We’re going to beat UVA and go on runs in both the ACC and NCAA tournaments.”

Second train of thought:
“We were exposed against UVA. The zone is trash. Boeheim should retire. Get ready for a first round exit. We should be a bubble team.”

So when will the trains collide?

It’s a trick question. They’re never going to collide. They’re not really traveling from opposite directions because they’re both wrong. Wake is a bad team and we exposed all of their flaws on both ends. UVA is one of the best teams in the country and shot a record number of threes at an absurd percentage. Neither game is a true indicator of anything.

Syracuse basketball is going to be fine. We’re a couple of weeks away from playing teams that aren’t prepared for our defense. And we’re going to start getting more calls (BTW, officiating wasn’t an issue last night). Enjoy the ride.

This is largely true, except for the "we are going to be fine" part. I don't know what that means. In terms of the tournament? The problem with that line of thinking is that being a surprise in the tournament—after another season outside of the top 25, and a middle of the league finish—doesn't help toward building us in the future. Players are the key to success, and we're not going to get the level of players we need for 'true success' without better season performance. I find it sad that so many of us are satisfied with 'being labeled a Bubble Team all year, having a chance to make the field' and then scraping into a Sweet 16.

 

[Day2]

This is largely true, except for the "we are going to be fine" part. I don't know what that means. In terms of the tournament? The problem with that line of thinking is that being a surprise in the tournament—after another season outside of the top 25, and a middle of the league finish—doesn't help toward building us in the future. Players are the key to success, and we're not going to get the level of players we need for 'true success' without better season performance. I find it sad that so many of us are satisfied with 'being labeled a Bubble Team all year, having a chance to make the field' and then scraping into a Sweet 16.

Yeah, I was just speaking in terms of this upcoming tournament. We're more than capable of going on a run, but obviously nothing is guaranteed. We've been a different team since the week off before Louisville. Should have won the games against Duke and UNC, and with more balanced officiating, we would have. That tells me we can hang with just about anyone. It even took a historic shooting night for UVA to beat us. As pointed out by another poster (I believe it was OrangeDW) in another thread, if they shoot their average from deep it's a close game. Of course, our shot selection in the second half wasn't great and we'll struggle against an 8 or 9 seed with that approach. Still, I like our chances against Gonzaga, Kentucky or Tennessee. Not so much against Michigan or any of the top teams from the ACC.

 

[calorange]

We’re not Villanova or UNC or Duke or Michigan or Kentucky. I can live with that.

I can't believe I just read the above snippet on this board. It's not been that long since Villanova and Michigan would have longed to have a program of our stature. Maybe I'm rooting for the wrong school.

 

[Day2]

I can't believe I just read the above snippet on this board. It's not been that long since Villanova and Michigan would have longed to have a program of our stature. Maybe I'm rooting for the wrong school.

A few things:

1. I’m talking about recent history
2. No one’s forcing you to root for SU
3. I have enough friends and family who went to Michigan to know they’ve never envied us
4. Remind me how many titles Nova’s won the last three years

 

[Eric15]

Because as fans we want more. We want more from teams that JB seems very happy with to start
the year than going 21-14 and losing in the 2nd round of the NITs. We want more than a current 19-11
record with a team whose issues last year of depth and lack of shooters was addressed by healing
and the newcomers, yet still runs a stagnant offense and is worse defensively. We want more than,
if you project this year out to 22-13 (beat Clemson, 1-1 in ACC and NCAA), a collective record of
105-69 over the last five years, a 21-14 average. We want more than "winning ugly" from a team
and a coach who used to play a fantasticly fun game to watch. Tired of watching this team beat inferior
teams 62-47 or 59-45 or 63-55, which is certainly better than losing to inferior teams 51-49
or 55-51 or 60-57. And you want more than an iso offense which shows little overall improvement
despite adding shooters to space it. You can live with a zone, as long as it's played with intensity.
You can live with losing to teams that are better, but, as other threads have pointed out, UVa's players
are lesser ranked than SU's, yet UVa is a far superior team to SU over the last several years, NCAA
tourney results notwithstanding. That team, and others, seem to get more out of their players than
this program does. And that's what is a problem to fans. You knew going into yesterday's game that
UVa could hit 3s, and that Kyle Guy shoots a percentage that would lead the ACC with more
attempts ... so you allow him ten 3s? You knew Jerome makes 40+% and Hunter makes almost 50%,
and you let them shoot the number they did? You get beat, you get beat, but don't lose because you
allow a team to do exactly what they're best at, and while it's going on, make no adjustments
whatsoever to stop it.

If the goal is to muddle along, and hope for a bubble selection to take advantage of maybe a team
that doesn't see the zone, or hope for an upset to knock a higher seed out of your way, or hope
for a team whose coach to get befuddled, that's great, and you know, that will probably work some
of the time, but that is not a successful template for any team.

Kev

Are these song lyrics?

 

[Briancuse]

First train of thought:
“Look at what we did against Wake. We’re going to beat UVA and go on runs in both the ACC and NCAA tournaments.”

Second train of thought:
“We were exposed against UVA. The zone is trash. Boeheim should retire. Get ready for a first round exit. We should be a bubble team.”

So when will the trains collide?

It’s a trick question. They’re never going to collide. They’re not really traveling from opposite directions because they’re both wrong. Wake is a bad team and we exposed all of their flaws on both ends. UVA is one of the best teams in the country and shot a record number of threes at an absurd percentage. Neither game is a true indicator of anything.

Syracuse basketball is going to be fine. We’re a couple of weeks away from playing teams that aren’t prepared for our defense. And we’re going to start getting more calls (BTW, officiating wasn’t an issue last night). Enjoy the ride.

Nothing you said is unfair but we have 11 losses right now for a team most people going into the season had losing 6 or 7 games all year. People are frustrated with the double digit loss seasons and the bubble.

 

[Madbiker]

Generally we are not losing games because of our defense or the zone. Going into last night SU was ranked 20th in defensive efficiency by KenPom. Now it's 22 after the debacle last night. Still SU has consistently been a top 20 or better defense per KenPom almost every year. We lose because we are offensively inept both this year and last year and prone to long scoring droughts. We do not have the type of offensively skilled players we have had in the past. Whether that is John Wallace, Carmelo, Warrick, GMac, Waiters, Wes Johnson, Ennis, or even Tyler Lydon or senior year Micheal Gbinije. Take Tyus Battle off this team next season and I shudder to think how bad the offense is going to be unless a couple of these freshman (none of whom except Guerrier are even considered to be top 75 players in the class. Some aren't in the top 150. This level of recruiting is differenent from where the program was just 5-6 years ago.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Generally we are not losing games because of our defense or the zone. Going into last night SU was ranked 20th in defensive efficiency by KenPom. Now it's 22 after the debacle last night. Still SU has consistently been a top 20 or better defense per KenPom almost every year. We lose because we are offensively inept both this year and last year and prone to long scoring droughts. We do not have the type of offensively skilled players we have had in the past. Whether that is John Wallace, Carmelo, Warrick, GMac, Waiters, Wes Johnson, Ennis, or even Tyler Lydon or senior year Micheal Gbinije. Take Tyus Battle off this team next season and I shudder to think how bad the offense is going to be unless a couple of these freshman (none of whom except Guerrier are even considered to be top 75 players in the class. Some aren't in the top 150. This level of recruiting is differenent from where the program was just 5-6 years ago.

You keep banging this drum, but you are wrong.

Guerrier is ranked 52 on 2 4 7 and was 4 star on rivals but not ranked because a he’s Canadian

He’s not scouted at all by ESPN.

Goodine is top 80 and people are sleeping on him. He’s better than Carey IMO.

The fact you keep banging this drum is kind of weird cause JB won with Rautins, Wes, and Arinze. None of who were top 75 players originally.

 

[tbonezone]

with the returning talent we had and the addition of elijah hughes , buddy and jalen we should have been in the polls all year. this year to date has for me been a let down of expectations. march already and no votes ?
let's see if we can turn it around. looks like once we get to play the role spoiler instead of contender.

 

[cusefan88]

It's such a weird feeling to lose 10-12 games every season but then thinking they can go to the Sweet 16 pending matchups. Makes me think if JB can choose to stop being stubborn and make those 2-3 adjustments they can get back to being an elite program the whole season.

 

[Day2]

Nothing you said is unfair but we have 11 losses right now for a team most people going into the season had losing 6 or 7 games all year. People are frustrated with the double digit loss seasons and the bubble.

As mentioned previously in another thread, double digit losses are becoming the norm for a good portion of ranked teams. Kansas will probably have double digit losses this year.

Who had us only losing 6 or 7 games all year? How is that even possible with our schedule?

And we’re not a bubble team this season.

 

[Briancuse]

As mentioned previously in another thread, double digit losses are becoming the norm for a good portion of ranked teams. Kansas will probably have double digit losses this year.

Who had us only losing 6 or 7 games all year? How is that even possible with our schedule?

And we’re not a bubble team this season.

Kansas is having a down year they have been a top seed for years now. We have been a bubble team for 4 years this was supposed to be the year that we got back to competing at the top of the conference and get a high seed.

 

[Madbiker]

You keep banging this drum, but you are wrong.

Guerrier is ranked 52 on 2 4 7 and was 4 star on rivals but not ranked because a he’s Canadian

He’s not scouted at all by ESPN.

Goodine is top 80 and people are sleeping on him. He’s better than Carey IMO.

The fact you keep banging this drum is kind of weird cause JB won with Rautins, Wes, and Arinze. None of who were top 75 players originally.

I'm not "banging any drum" but neither do I think I'm wrong that our recruiting has fallen off. We used to get multiple top 50 ranked kids in each class not that long ago. And now we aren't. Great if Guerrier is a near top 50 but he's one kid. And I believe everyone had Barrett ranked in the top 2 and he was Canadian. But that's beside the point.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm not "banging any drum" but neither do I think I'm wrong that our recruiting has fallen off. We used to get multiple top 50 ranked kids in each class not that long ago. And now we aren't. Great if Guerrier is a near top 50 but he's one kid. And I believe everyone had Barrett ranked in the top 2 and he was Canadian. But that's beside the point.

Barrett played in the US more than Guerrier and beat the US in the FIBA championships.

Can’t remeber how often we got multiple guys in the top 50, but it’s a lot less than you think.

We are still getting recruiting classes near the top of the ACC. Other teams classes are outperforming ours once they get on campus.

 

[Day2]

Kansas is having a down year they have been a top seed for years now. We have been a bubble team for 4 years this was supposed to be the year that we got back to competing at the top of the conference and get a high seed.

There are seven teams in the coaches poll with as many losses as Kansas or more. Purdue is in the top ten with seven losses. There will be ranked teams with double digit losses when the season is over.

I’ll ask again: How were we going to finish the season with only six or seven losses? List them. And you said all year, so don’t leave out the postseason.

 

[Briancuse]

There are seven teams in the coaches poll with as many losses as Kansas or more. Purdue is in the top ten with seven losses. There will be ranked teams with double digit losses when the season is over.

I’ll ask again: How were we going to finish the season with only six or seven losses? List them. And you said all year, so don’t leave out the postseason.

Go to the iggy picks thread. Lots of single digit loss predictions.

 

[Day2]

Go to the iggy picks thread. Lots of single digit loss predictions.

That doesn’t answer my question.

 

[kcsu]

Yeah, I was just speaking in terms of this upcoming tournament. We're more than capable of going on a run, but obviously nothing is guaranteed. We've been a different team since the week off before Louisville. Should have won the games against Duke and UNC, and with more balanced officiating, we would have. That tells me we can hang with just about anyone. It even took a historic shooting night for UVA to beat us. As pointed out by another poster (I believe it was OrangeDW) in another thread, if they shoot their average from deep it's a close game. Of course, our shot selection in the second half wasn't great and we'll struggle against an 8 or 9 seed with that approach. Still, I like our chances against Gonzaga, Kentucky or Tennessee. Not so much against Michigan or any of the top teams from the ACC.

Have you actually watched each of these teams play?

 

[moqui]

9!!!!
They are why we've "sucked," because they impacted not only the players we couldn't recruit, but also the ones we could and did. How many good players chose not to come to Syracuse because of the sanctions, or perhaps because of the resulting loss of potency and prestige?

If we have indeed "sucked" the sanctions are why.

and the biggest impact was restricting the number of coaches su could have out recruiting by half for all or parts of three consecutive recruiting cycles. that impacted not only those cycles but future ones as well.

anyone who dismisses the significance of sanctions is simply not to be taken seriously.

 

[Day2]

Have you actually watched each of these teams play?

All but Gonzaga. Your point?

 

[Briancuse]

That doesn’t answer my question.

It should.

 

[Day2]

It should.

You answering the question will.