Typical after lost board.

[Gabjon]

This is where some of use have a disconnect. I'm more bullish on Christmas than most, but I'm not sure how anyone could argue he's not at worst a capable post threat. With limited touches, he's demonstrated that he can produce.

There have been two games this year where he's taken more than seven shots: he went 6-8 for 15 against Providence and 6-9 for 12 against Notre Dame. Each of those teams has better bigs than UConn. Rakeem's got good footwork, good hands, range to ~15, is a good finisher with either hand. But we don't want to use him.

because he is too hot and cold, so would you rather him shoot a 8-10ft and CJ go for the rebound or the other way around?

 

[Gabjon]

I think so - I've made this point a little too often about our win over Stanford last year - but you raise an interesting question.

What if UConn only makes 5 threes? We win. Would some of us still say Boeheim got outcoached?

No I would say we were out played and won...Like I said after providence.

 

[PhatOrange]

Further, UConn is unique among our Big East opponents in that their front line is very weak. So if there was ever a game to focus more on operating inside, this was it.

Our front line is very weak to though. Who on it is going to operate inside against ?

Keita, Rak, Southerland, Grant, Fair?

Ham is dreaming when he says these guys are more than serviceable to throw them the ball in the paint.

 

[Gabjon]

Anyway, I agree that our strength is on the wing. And execution was a huge problem. Our guards simply got outplayed by two other talented guards.

But Christmas is so clearly an untapped strength. I've watched enough Syracuse basketball to understand that wings come first, second, and third in our offense - if LeRon Ellis and Arinze aren't unleashed and force-fed 20 times a game, Christmas certainly won't be.

However, Christmas has demonstrated that he can do a number of things on the offensive end; he's anything but a liability and I see no reason why we can't incorporate him into the offense. It's true that he's going to suffer when the guards get dominated. He's been ignored for most of the year, though, regardless of how freely our guards are operating.

I think the potential is there but the skill level is a work in progress.

 

[OttoMets]

because he is too hot and cold, so would you rather him shoot a 8-10ft and CJ go for the rebound or the other way around?

Certainly the other way around.

Though it's hard to say hot and cold - he's probably taken a dozen of those in his career and made half of them - he just shoots too infrequently. He's made enough shots - and had few enough turnovers - that I know I'd like to see him shoot much more. Based on 24 games, this seems like a team that should be taking about 10 threes per game and giving its center twice as many touches. (We should give Fair more touches, too.)

 

[NineOneSeven]

define post game?

Post game refers to plays being made at a specific position on the floor. The lower blocks I consider the post. It doesn't matter who the player is; getting the ball with your back to the basket, defender directly behind you, i.e. posting up, can be done (or at least attempted) by any player depending on the opponent's strength/weaknesses. Just because a player isn't known as a post player doesn't mean he can't display a post game. See: Edelin, Billy. Was Billy a post player? No, he was a PG. Did he often display a post game to exploit opponent's weaknesses? Yes, better than most guards I've watched.

 

[Gabjon]

Certainly the other way around.

Though it's hard to say hot and cold - he's probably taken a dozen of those in his career and made half of them - he just shoots too infrequently. He's made enough shots - and had few enough turnovers - that I know I'd like to see him shoot much more. Based on 24 games, this seems like a team that should be taking about 10 threes per game and giving its center twice as many touches. (We should give Fair more touches, too.)

ok you lost at the center getting more touches, but less 3s and more forward touches in the post...agreed!

 

[OttoMets]

Our front line is very weak to though. Who on it is going to operate inside against ?

Keita, Rak, Southerland, Grant, Fair?

Ham is dreaming when he says these guys are more than serviceable to throw them the ball in the paint.

We're all just stating our opinions as fact.

Why don't you think they're serviceable in the post? What's the likely result of finding each of those guys on the block?

Baye's an empty possession more than half the time, I get that. And Grant hasn't been consistent.

But Southerland and Fair can score with their back to the basket; each has used a little hook with some success. Christmas has hit on that hook shot much more than half the time; he can spin and dunk, duck under and lay it in, and face up and hit that fallaway from 5 to 8. And none of those guys turns it over frequently - they're not hands of stone types.

 

[Gabjon]

Post game refers to plays being made at a specific position on the floor. The lower blocks I consider the post. It doesn't matter who the player is; getting the ball with your back to the basket, defender directly behind you, i.e. posting up, can be done (or at least attempted) by any player depending on the opponent's strength/weaknesses. Just because a player isn't known as a post player doesn't mean he can't display a post game. See: Edelin, Billy. Was Billy a post player? No, he was a PG. Did he often display a post game to exploit opponent's weaknesses? Yes, better than most guards I've watched.

Agreed! Who on this team has DEMONSTRATED a consisent post game?

 

[Gabjon]

Christmas has hit on that hook shot much more than half the time; he can spin and dunk, duck under and lay it in, and face up and hit that fallaway from 5 to 8. And none of those guys turns it over frequently - they're not hands of stone types.

Wishful thinking!

 

[cuseinseattle]

Please explain exactly how he was outcoached? Proclaiming it doesn't make it true.
If you have big men that do very little productive work, can't put back shots, leave men open several times back door, etc., how is that being outcoached?
If one of your starting guards has a bad game, how is that being outcoached?
If your wings don't get back on the 3pt shooters, how is that being outcoached?
We were outplayed last night, we weren't outcoached.

Everytime a team plays bad and losses doesn't mean one coach completely outcoached the other. The reality is that this was the most important game of the year for Yukon. Last game against us at their place and they don't have the BET or NCAA to look forward to. They were pumped up and they executed really well. Give them credit. Everyone was talking about their guards afterwards but I knew they had 2 good guards. I was really suprised CJ and XMas didn't dominate down low with their bad front court. I still can't believe they out rebounded us. To be honest the effort level and what the two teams were playing for kind of reminded me of the 1992 Big East final of Syracuse vs Georgetown. Syracuse had amazing effort and played hard because it was their title game while Georgetown was thinking about the NCAA tourney.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Our front line is very weak to though. Who on it is going to operate inside against ?

Keita, Rak, Southerland, Grant, Fair?

Ham is dreaming when he says these guys are more than serviceable to throw them the ball in the paint.

Dreaming? You honestly don't think Rak, Southerland, Grant, Fair, division 1 basketball players, all over 6'8", couldn't have done something productive against an undermanned (spelling?) Uconn team down low? Jacking 30 footers with 20 seconds on the shot clock is a better option?

By the way, love my new handle. Everyone refers to me as Ham, and that is damn cool.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Agreed! Who on this team has DEMONSTRATED a consisent post game?

You really, truly, don't get it. Who has had the chance to get enough touches in the post to display a post game? If there was ever a game, this was it.

It's hard for me to get up consistently on one water ski when I have the opportunity to ski only twice a year. See where I'm getting at? Or am I not making sense because of my age?

I, like many, have been harping on the fact we need something from our post players. In order to get something, we need to give them the chance first. We need to feed the post in some manner. It's crucial.

 

[OttoMets]

Wishful thinking!

But, no - he's done all those things. You've seen it.

And he's done it while hitting over 56% of his attempts with under one turnover per game.

I really would love to get to the bottom of this: what do you guys think he can't do? And what do you base that on?

 

[Gabjon]

You really, truly, don't get it. Who has had the chance to get enough touches in the post to display a post game? If there was ever a game, this was it.

It's hard for me to get up consistently on one water ski when I have the opportunity to ski only twice a year. See where I'm getting at? Or am I not making sense because of my age?

I, like many, have been harping on the fact we need something from our post players. In order to get something, we need to give them the chance first. We need to feed the post in some manner. It's crucial.

Do you realize that you used an example of a guard with a post game because you have seen him play in the post a game, yet you think our center have a post that his coach won't let show and they played for the same coach! Maybe the coach knows that the guard can post up so he let's him do it and that center can't post up so he doesn't let him do it. The reason we don't have a post is not because our 68 year coach changed him philosophy on basketball.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Do you realize that you used an example of a guard with a post game because you have seen him play in the post a game, yet you think our center have a post that his coach won't let show and they played for the same coach! Maybe the coach knows that the guard can post up so he let's him do it and that center can't post up so he doesn't let him do it. The reason we done have a post is not because our 68 year coach changed him philosophy on basketball.

Wow.

Tipping 'em back early today huh?

 

[Gabjon]

But, no - he's done all those things. You've seen it.

And he's done it while hitting over 56% of his attempts with under one turnover per game.

I really would love to get to the bottom of this: what do you guys think he can't do? And what do you base that on?

Remove his dunks from his shooting percentage and what is it? Warrick, AO, Ricky, Carmelo, etc... We have a coach who likes feeding the post....when he has a post player so if he is not feeding the post it because he doesn't believe he has a post up player! I have seen nothing to lead me to disagree with him.

 

[OttoMets]

Do you realize that you used an example of a guard with a post game because you have seen him play in the post a game, yet you think our center have a post that his coach won't let show and they played for the same coach! Maybe the coach knows that the guard can post up so he let's him do it and that center can't post up so he doesn't let him do it. The reason we done have a post is not because our 68 year coach changed him philosophy on basketball.

Wait, but Boeheim's historically been reluctant to feed the post. You said it above: we're a forward-oriented team. Have been since the beginning.

We're the school that brought in LeRon Ellis as a transfer after he scored 16 per as a sophomore and promptly cut his usage in half. We had Arinze Onuaku scoring at will - 67% in his last two years - but only taking 7 shots per game.

You're right, Boeheim hasn't changed his philosophy by any stretch. He's always treated the center as Option #5.

 

[OttoMets]

Remove his dunks from his shooting percentage and what is it? Warrick, AO, Ricky, Carmelo, etc... We have a coach who likes feeding the post....when he has a post player so if he is not feeding the post it because he doesn't believe he has a post up player! I have seen nothing to lead me to disagree with him.

Truly have no idea about the dunk percentage. But I've seen little to suggest that the coach likes feeding the center on the block, in practice at least. He'd much prefer that his star forwards (Carmelo and Hakim among them) get those touches. Ricky and Arinze, not so much (and Rakeem can do a number of things that Jackson could not - among them, use his off hand and score facing the basket).

 

[Gabjon]

Wait, but Boeheim's historically been reluctant to feed the post. You said it above: we're a forward-oriented team. Have been since the beginning.

We're the school that brought in LeRon Ellis as a transfer after he scored 16 per as a sophomore and promptly cut his usage in half. We had Arinze Onuaku scoring at will - 67% in his last two years - but only taking 7 shots per game.

You're right, Boeheim hasn't changed his philosophy by any stretch. He's always treated the center as Option #5.

No I didn't maybe someone else did, but JB feeds to the post. AO couldn't make foul shots so team just put him on the line so that deflated his attempts average. The offense ran through Warrick in the post his junior and senior years.

 

[Gabjon]

Truly have no idea about the dunk percentage. But I've seen little to suggest that the coach likes feeding the center on the block, in practice at least. He'd much prefer that his star forwards (Carmelo and Hakim among them) get those touches. Ricky and Arinze, not so much (and Rakeem can do a number of things that Jackson could not - among them, use his off hand and score facing the basket).

80% of Hak's touches were in the post. Carmelo got ton of post touches his only year here. Ricky and AO both got their touches.

 

[OttoMets]

80% of Hak's touches were in the post. Carmelo got ton of post touches his only year here. Ricky and AO both got their touches.

I was agreeing with you about Warrick and Anthony (though 80% strikes me as a little high for Warrick).

Ricky and - especially - Arinze were underused. Jackson played 36 minutes a game as a senior and still didn't manage ten field goal attempts per game. And I've complained about Arinze's usage ad nauseam - regardless of free throws, a player with his skills would get 20 shots a game at certain other schools.

 

[PhatOrange]

We're all just stating our opinions as fact.

Why don't you think they're serviceable in the post? What's the likely result of finding each of those guys on the block?

Baye's an empty possession more than half the time, I get that. And Grant hasn't been consistent.

But Southerland and Fair can score with their back to the basket; each has used a little hook with some success. Christmas has hit on that hook shot much more than half the time; he can spin and dunk, duck under and lay it in, and face up and hit that fallaway from 5 to 8. And none of those guys turns it over frequently - they're not hands of stone types.

Southerland could be the best player on the court and be a dominating player if he had the desire to bang down low. He doesn't, he's soft. He wants to sit out at the wing and shoot threes. No handle either. His rebounding numbers are pathetic for a PF.

CJ tries to bang low except he's weak and that's just not his style. Look at his game last night. He likes to drive or shoot mid range jumpers - and that's fine to me. Thats his game he's a SF.

Grant - nada. To weak. He has trouble finishing because he gets banged around to much and he's not going to get the calls. Not going to put him on the block. He's a skinny small foward.

Keits - eef.

Rak - feed him the ball. But it's starts with the point guard. Rak will get a couple of early attempts and then the guards just dominate the ball. Maybe we can blame JB for that but the O isn't going to run through Rak.

 

[OttoMets]

Southerland could be the best player on the court and be a dominating player if he had the desire to bang down low. He doesn't, he's soft. He wants to sit out at the wing and shoot threes. No handle either. His rebounding numbers are pathetic for a PF.

CJ tries to bang low except he's weak and that's just not his style. Look at his game last night. He likes to drive or shoot mid range jumpers - and that's fine to me. Thats his game he's a SF.

Grant - nada. To weak. He has trouble finishing because he gets banged around to much and he's not going to get the calls. Not going to put him on the block. He's a skinny small foward.

Keits - eef.

Rak - feed him the ball. But it's starts with the point guard. Rak will get a couple of early attempts and then the guards just dominate the ball. Maybe we can blame JB for that but the O isn't going to run through Rak.

Thanks for spelling it out. Agree on the last three (and that's my point about Christmas - he's money, but he's not being fed).

Think South plays the 3 more than the 4 and his rebounding numbers adjusted to 40 minutes have been pretty good (he was our best defensive rebounder, no?). Either way, he's improved his handle to the point where he can score (and has scored) down low. By no means his role on this team, but he's done it.

Many of us have said recently that Fair could stand to add a post-up game. He posted up his man and made a nice hook early in the second half last night. Maybe we'll see more of that.

 

[PhatOrange]

Thanks for spelling it out. Agree on the last three (and that's my point about Christmas - he's money, but he's not being fed).

Think South plays the 3 more than the 4 and his rebounding numbers adjusted to 40 minutes have been pretty good (he was our best defensive rebounder, no?). Either way, he's improved his handle to the point where he can score (and has scored) down low. By no means his role on this team, but he's done it.

Many of us have said recently that Fair could stand to add a post-up game. He posted up his man and made a nice hook early in the second half last night. Maybe we'll see more of that.

Part of the team problem is the personnel makeup. South, CJ and Grant are all small forwards. CJ is probably about 6-6 maybe 6-7. He can post up I agree but he's not going to post up bigger stronger kids.

This team would have been better off keeping Coleman on the floor and letting him play the PF position - take some defensive lumps and let him play through mistakes. Injury aside should have rolled the dice with him. He's the only player with a true back to the basket low block game.