Update: Dungey's injury is not career-ending

[OttoinGrotto]

I'd go somewhere that gave me the best chance to succeed, somewhere that archaic rules didn't govern my professional well-being. And that wouldn't be Syracuse.

I wouldn't call the rules archaic.

 

[RMH44]

Mitch and his coach who I believe instructed his players to take Dungey out - precisely because the kid was killing them.

I also believe that that has been the strategy ever since CMU - take out Dungey.

I was incensed when the kid from ND targeted him in the head as Eric was sliding after a short run. The ND player was thrown out of the game, but I believe he was acting under the instructions of Brian Kelly.

I believe the same thing happened at Clemson.

I don't believe it's happenstance that Eric - and none of our other QBs - takes so many shots to the head - I believe it's strategy and it sickens me.

I agree in regard to the hit at Clemson. The player that made the hit (#6) celebrated like he had just won the lottery. To me, it was an obvious targeting call.

 

[Consigliere]

There is a tremendous amount of nuance to the concussion issue, starting with whether (to use some older criteria) if it's grade 1, grade 2 or grade 3. This last injury and one was clearly the least serious and likely grade one based in part on the fact it was indirect head trauma and more whiplash related. The more severe concussions are usually the ones where they'll stick to the 3 strikes you're out.

The fact that he was immediately on the sideline post injury was a good sign in many respects that again makes it likely this one ended up being his most mild of the 3 we know about. So he may play again. So much depends on how he tests post injury with the neurological testing done.

It's not hard settled science as mentioned as some of the later studies suggest it may not actually be the concussions we need to worry about as much but rather the repetitive head hits on every play that may be the biggest concern for problems down the road. Kind of like with boxers.

Complicated stuff no doubt. Some will error on the side of saying it's time to end the career to be hyper cautious and I understand that reaction since as I've mentioned there's no hard and fast rules to this area of injury, while the young will understandably want to throw caution to the wind and keep on playing regardless.

I know I have had at least 3 concussions myself from my playing days but I'm pleased to find myself typing this to you with no signs at age 53 of major concerns, but how I'll be at 63 is a worry and I'll find out and will hope I'm still typing on this board.

CR - is there something in individual physiology that make some individuals more susceptible to concussions? And can someone be considered more susceptible after a first occurrence, particularly if the first one is particularly violent? Still thinking about that CMU scumbag that knocked Eric out the first time.

 

[CUSU]

I agree in regard to the hit at Clemson. The player that made the hit (#6) celebrated like he had just won the lottery. To me, it was an obvious targeting call.

He probably had some cash waiting for him at his locker

 

[OrangePA]

If it makes you feel better (I do), that rat bastard is out indefinitely with a knee injury. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving asshle.

You never want to see a kid get hurt.

But I'm not going to bemoan his injury by any stretch.

I would have been happier had he been suspended for a year - or for a career - based upon that horrific hit.

 

[djorange1989]

The Stanizak hit is one of the dirtiest hits I have ever seen. And I am old enough to have watched guys like Jack Tatum and Conrad Dobler play. total scumbag. I wish we had a (very beatable) FBS team that we could put on the schedule next year and dump CMU. If CMU wants their buyout, tell them to stick it.

 

[Cuseregular]

If it makes you feel better (I do), that rat bastard is out indefinitely with a knee injury. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving asshle.

Karmas a b!tch man.

 

[bcubs9497]

You never want to see a kid get hurt.

But I'm not going to bemoan his injury by any stretch.

I would have been happier had he been suspended for a year - or for a career - based upon that horrific hit.

I get you, but I LOATHE dirty players. I will go to my grave believing that Stanitzek intentionally went to brain Eric.

 

[OrangePA]

I get you, but I LOATHE dirty players. I will go to my grave believing that Stanitzek intentionally went to brain Eric.

I agree.

 

[leftytg]

There is a fundamental right when you have the ability to do so. The military disqualifies not for your health, but, because you could potentially harm the production of the unit. Health is their excuse to be selective and to protect the productivity of the military.

My entire post was meant to say this is DUNGEY's decision, not a gyno from Fayetteville.

It's Eric's decision. And, if he's disqualified here, he'll play elsewhere. Because, he's earned the right to do so.

words have meanings. You keep saying he has a fundamental right to play football. He doesn't. That's not up for debate. For you to continue to insist so simply means you do not understand what fundamental right means. This might help: Fundamental rights - Wikipedia

You are entitled to your opinion that the decision should be Dungey's and Dungey's alone. I or others may agree or disagree with that, but that is your opinion and it is perfectly respectable.

You are not entitled to insist that playing football is a fundamental right. That is a factual assertion, and it is wrong.

 

[Finwad32]

words have meanings. You keep saying he has a fundamental right to play football. He doesn't. That's not up for debate. For you to continue to insist so simply means you do not understand what fundamental right means. This might help: Fundamental rights - Wikipedia

You are entitled to your opinion that the decision should be Dungey's and Dungey's alone. I or others may agree or disagree with that, but that is your opinion and it is perfectly respectable.

You are not entitled to insist that playing football is a fundamental right. That is a factual assertion, and it is wrong.

Fine, by definition, you're certainly correct. I'll make sure my terminology is accurate moving forward. Remove right, insert privilege. He's certainly earned the privilege to continue his career.

Thank you for the lesson.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[orangehomer]

it's weird reading about dungey having another concussion or even being injured when he was on the field for the second half of the Clemson game, and then was on the field at halftime of the nc state game catching balls and whipping passes all over the place. I don't generally pay that close of attention but I can't recall a situation where a guy is being held out for undisclosed injury but appears to be totally fine.

 

[upperdeck]

Armstrong for Nebraska was knocked out cold, taken to a hospital in an ambulance and came back the next week, lots of variable in play

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Armstrong for Nebraska was knocked out cold, taken to a hospital in an ambulance and came back the next week, lots of variable in play

Armstrong was back on the sidelines for the 2nd half.

 

[upperdeck]

Armstrong was back on the sidelines for the 2nd half.

yup.. and so was dungey.

 

[Cuseregular]

I get you, but I LOATHE dirty players. I will go to my grave believing that Stanitzek intentionally went to brain Eric.

And here's the beautiful thing I forgot to mention, the SOB will be still on the team when CMU returns to play in the dome next year. And let me preface this by saying I played his position was AA at it (translation and mentioned as I'm not talking out of my a$$ know of what I speak) and as a result know full well he could of pulled up but didn't as he targeted ED for the attempted kill shot.

I'm going to imagine that Eric's teammates are going to relish the opportunity to play against the SOB next year. Don't often advocate such things and generally don't like to boo players, but given the circumstances I won't shed a tear if they light the kid up early and often next year when he revisits the dome. I for one will be in full throat, heckling and booing as much as this old man can.

 

[TheCusian]

And here's the beautiful thing I forgot to mention, the SOB will be still on the team when CMU returns to play in the dome next year. And let me preface this by saying I played his position was AA at it (translation and mentioned as I'm not talking out of my a$$ know of what I speak) and as a result know full well he could of pulled up but didn't as he targeted ED for the attempted kill shot.

I'm going to imagine that Eric's teammates are going to relish the opportunity to play against the SOB next year. Don't often advocate such things and generally don't like to boo players, but given the circumstances I won't shed a tear if they light the kid up early and often next year when he revisits the dome. I for one will be in full throat, heckling and booing as much as this old man can.

Can Steven play on offense for a few plays that game?

 

[Cuseregular]

CR - is there something in individual physiology that make some individuals more susceptible to concussions? And can someone be considered more susceptible after a first occurrence, particularly if the first one is particularly violent? Still thinking about that CMU scumbag that knocked Eric out the first time.

Hard to answer this in a concise way.

First, yes, with respect to reinjury the answer is yes that once you get concussed the consensus is that you are now more susceptible to future concussive injury, some even believe with lesser impacts as well.

Now with respect to if some people are more likely to be prone to them to begin with the short answer here is to say we really don't know yet with any certainty but generally what we lean to officially is that the answer to that is no, there's no way to figure out who may be more prone to concussive injury.

At least at this point in the literature with respect to it and the current school of thought. But we need to consider that this area of injury study is really still in it's infancy and thus we can postulate some theories. An analogy is apt and helpful here and I'm going to think out loud here for a minute:

Disc herniations. Two patients can have the exact same type and size of disc hernations measured radiographically with essentially the exact same look on film with respect to the disc injury itself and yet have two completely different clinical presentations on examination and evaluation in the office.

One can have unrelenting leg pain (sciatica) and frank weakness in the foot/leg with associated subsequent disability to go along with their back pain symptoms, while the other can have just moderate back pain with no other disabling issue and can keep working through it. The difference? It's all in how their anatomy is unique and potentially different from one another.

Meaning the shape and size of their spinal canals (where the nerves and spinal cord live) is different with one larger in circumference and able to accommodate the disc hernation better and not effected as much by it. It is why some athletes are taken out for good if it's determined they have too small a spinal canal circumference in their cervical (neck) spines for fear of paralysis with basic hits.

So the point here is with respect to Dungy and concussions that perhaps there is a significant variable not yet identified in people like ED. Again current thinking says no. I don't think that he plays any differently or any more recklessly than any other player I've seen.

What may be different is that there's more of him at 6'5"to hit vs these other qb's so much smaller at 5'10"-6'2" who play the same way but who seem to avoid hits better. Maybe his tall lanky yet athletic body style DOES predispose him (again thinking out loud here) and expose him and his head and neck to be hit more.

One other thing too as a possibility. I've been teaching on these issues as a college prof teaching neuroanatomy/spinal anatomy with some sports injuries for 25 years now and have seen literally thousands of calvaria and internal skull anatomy of cadavers and there is some variation in the structure of people skulls with respect to the jagged interior of the skull anatomy itself (I'll try and post a pic or two in a subsequent edit).

So perhaps those with more jagged hard bone internal skull anatomies will have more problems when their brains are sloshed around?

And more food for thought and an interesting idea potentially for possible study is that perhaps there is a difference is the sub dural/sub arachnoid/epidural space (distance and space from brain to hard bone skull) from person to person.

Meaning just like in peoples spinal canals discussed above with how some have larger spinal canals vs others, and those have smaller ones and thus have the diagnosis of "stenosis" mentioned above but never named, an interesting possibility worthy of thought would be to see if concussed individual have reduced sub dural spaces vs. the average sized person, thus, theoretically making it easier for their brains to hit the hard bony skulls with subsequent injury.

Lots of food for thought and thanks for the question to get the noggin thinking a bit.

 

[orangehomer]

Armstrong was back on the sidelines for the 2nd half.

but does that make it right?

 

[Cuseregular]

The one thing that sticks out to me... We both agree, there's no hard and fast rule when it comes to these types of injuries, yet, that's exactly the way SU diagnoses them.

If the worst imagineable scenario happened here, ED being DQ'd, the effects would be far more reaching than the loss of our starting QB. Yes, we'd lose the best thing that's happened to this football team in quite some time, IMO, but I think you'd lose three fold that.

What would Babers reaction be? I know how I'd feel about it as a coach trying to build a program. I'd go somewhere that gave me the best chance to succeed, somewhere that archaic rules didn't govern my professional well-being. And that wouldn't be Syracuse.

I'm as die-hard a fan as they come, but, tell me this wouldn't be a devastating punch to the gut? I've sat through arguably the best and worst this program has had to offer, and, it would be hard for me to muster the same enthusiasm. At least for the foreseeable future.

Let me be crystal clear, I'm scared to death of concussions. Very progressive when it comes to player safety. BUT, when you deny somebody's fundamental right to choose to play, or vote or go into the military... I will always vehemenently disagree.

First I've been worried about DB and his position here almost from day one so I get what you're saying:

The offense to me still looks like a Shafer team
The offense to me still looks like a Shafer team

With respect to ED's circumstance the fact that there's so many shades of grey here with the whole concussive issue in general makes this situation less concrete as to what to advise and recommend and is a frustrating thing for player, doctor and coach alike. I've been all of these at one point at another so I can tell you how I handle it in my private practice with the patients I see with these concerns.

Been in health care 25 years now treating a variety of orthopedic/spinal disorders, concussions, sports injuries, etc. and as mentioned in another post teaching on it all as well for even longer. The amount of nuance in this issue is, as mentioned, frustrating for all involved. Its unlike most other conditions I treat in that with neck, back injuries, shoulder, knee, ankle disorders where these are all more concrete both with respect to how they're treated as well as with respect to what recommendations are made to best address them both now and down the road.

For example, those non currently active with competitive sport patients who still like to run/do high impact activities, for them with knee problems, back problems, etc. I flat out tell them that they need to change from these activities to more smooth, rhythmical, lower impact activities as it's not a matter of if but when they're going to need joint replacements and/or back surgeries if they continue down the same path that ultimately got them into my office. Pretty straight and simple.

With concussions on the other hand where I'm often not the primary provider but more ancillary and co treating offering advice/opinion along with Rx, these break the mold of simplicity with both treatment and prospective advice, this given that every circumstance is different dependent on how many they've had, what grade or type was it/how well did they do in follow up neurological testing, what sport are they trying to return to, what position do they play, etc. The last one as the thought is that the recurrent and repetitive smaller hits (over time) may be as bad if not more of a concern as the bigger concussions.

Having been a player who played right through such issues in contrast with some emerging evidence of the later effects of such injuries, knowing that not everybody who gets one (or more) is effected the same way, both short and long term, if they are effected at all, treating such injuries semi regularly leaves me in a position where I need to try and present all sides of the issue do to it's more complicated nature of the condition(s) itself.

I tell them that since they're in the office I have to wear my dr hat and give advice accordingly and that advice in this case here with what seems to be going on both now in the present and with what is the past history, would be to shut it down (for the year at least) knowing he's had two previous bad ones in combination with this milder appearing one, and very possibly likely for a career if there's any indication on post concussive testing that's there's been any detioration in cognitive function on post injury neurological testing. That the potential cons seem to outweigh the pros potentially in that there is a litany of examples now of long term concerns in these circumstances with past players who now are having problems.

I then follow up and say that listen I myself played with these issues, and so did thousands of others whose cognitive facilities have and continue to be just fine. That there really is no way to know with certainty what the future holds. If I was a young man in his shoes I would understand the desire to play and may have done so myself and that ultimately this is a decision for him and his parents to make knowing all the potentialities of the cirumcumstances. If it were my child I'd advise against it but that after age 18 the final decision if cleared by an institution is his decision to make as there is exactly zero consistency from school to school on what the protocols and procedures are to follow with respect to recommendations of allowing continued play or not.

And the crazy thing of it all is that since my gut is that he's doing well after this latest one, what appeared to this trained eye to be the mildest one of the 3 with him likely (hopefully) passing the neurologic testing, but since it's number 3 the school must have some type of self declared protocol on it to hold kids out after three regardless of grade/severity, the crazy thing is if he gets that second opinion, does well with it, has passed all testing, knowing there's no hard and fast criteria to rigidly follow, there's actually a chance he could be out there again this season. I personally hope that is not the case given where I sit now and what I do and what I know, but the crazy thing is if it were me I think I'd want to be out there too. I get all sides of this.

 

[GoCuse14]

yup.. and so was dungey.

Yeah, but wasn't armstrong carted off the field in an ambulance?

 

[dollarbill44]

View attachment 82173 View attachment 82174
Hard to answer this in a concise way.

First, yes, with respect to reinjury the answer is yes that once you get concussed the consensus is that you are now more susceptible to future concussive injury, some even believe with lesser impacts as well.

Now with respect to if some people are more likely to be prone to them to begin with the short answer here is to say we really don't know yet with any certainty but generally what we lean to officially is that the answer to that is no, there's no way to figure out who may be more prone to concussive injury.

At least at this point in the literature with respect to it and the current school of thought. But we need to consider that this area of injury study is really still in it's infancy and thus we can postulate some theories. An analogy is apt and helpful here and I'm going to think out loud here for a minute:

Disc herniations. Two patients can have the exact same type and size of disc hernations measured radiographically with essentially the exact same look on film with respect to the disc injury itself and yet have two completely different clinical presentations on examination and evaluation in the office.

One can have unrelenting leg pain (sciatica) and frank weakness in the foot/leg with associated subsequent disability to go along with their back pain symptoms, while the other can have just moderate back pain with no other disabling issue and can keep working through it. The difference? It's all in how their anatomy is unique and potentially different from one another.

Meaning the shape and size of their spinal canals (where the nerves and spinal cord live) is different with one larger in circumference and able to accommodate the disc hernation better and not effected as much by it. It is why some athletes are taken out for good if it's determined they have too small a spinal canal circumference in their cervical (neck) spines for fear of paralysis with basic hits.

So the point here is with respect to Dungy and concussions that perhaps there is a significant variable not yet identified in people like ED. Again current thinking says no. I don't think that he plays any differently or any more recklessly than any other player I've seen.

What may be different is that there's more of him at 6'5"to hit vs these other qb's so much smaller at 5'10"-6'2" who play the same way but who seem to avoid hits better. Maybe his tall lanky yet athletic body style DOES predispose him (again thinking out loud here) and expose him and his head and neck to be hit more.

One other thing too as a possibility. I've been teaching on these issues as a college prof teaching neuroanatomy/spinal anatomy with some sports injuries for 25 years now and have seen literally thousands of calvaria and internal skull anatomy of cadavers and there is some variation in the structure of people skulls with respect to the jagged interior of the skull anatomy itself (I'll try and post a pic or two in a subsequent edit).

So perhaps those with more jagged hard bone internal skull anatomies will have more problems when their brains are sloshed around?

And more food for thought and an interesting idea potentially for possible study is that perhaps there is a difference is the sub dural/sub arachnoid/epidural space (distance and space from brain to hard bone skull) from person to person.

Meaning just like in peoples spinal canals discussed above with how some have larger spinal canals vs others, and those have smaller ones and thus have the diagnosis of "stenosis" mentioned above but never named, an interesting possibility worthy of thought would be to see if concussed individual have reduced sub dural spaces vs. the average sized person, thus, theoretically making it easier for their brains to hit the hard bony skulls with subsequent injury.

Lots of food for thought and thanks for the question to get the noggin thinking a bit.

Dr. Mark Gordon has had a lot of success in treating TBI patients with hormonal therapy and nutritional supplements. He believes that in many cases, he can eliminate the repetitive nature of concussions through his protocols. I won't get too deep into the physiology of the topic, but his basic premise is that with every knock on the head, the hormone production gets a little out of whack and often stays that way unless it is brought back in line. He has had a lot of success treating veterans who had previously been given no hope of a meaningful recovery.

As you might imagine, he is having difficulty obtaining sufficient funding for widespread studies because his therapy is relatively cheap and short-term whereas the currently accepted treatments involve a lot of money from lifetime prescriptions to "manage" the symptoms rather than eliminate them. I will stop now before this gets too much into the "Political Forum" area.

 

[orangencpolice]

Just another SUfan poster playing doctor. I had no idea this board had so many MD's until the Dungey hit in the Clemson game. He knows nada about Dungey's medical file (along with the rest of the board).

Yeah, there is a lot of attorneys and police officers too when legal questions are presented. They are like a bunch of auto accident lawyers.