USC and UCLA to the Big Ten | Page 100 | Syracusefan.com

USC and UCLA to the Big Ten

I would think that would be small potatoes in the aggregate for the Big 12 letting those two out early. Starting the negotiations early let's them find out what current market would be for the new league less UT and Okla and get direct feedback on what if any new inventory could bring.
 
Also, couple reports Big 12 is looking to do
this to bring back actual numbers to PAC 12 schools they are trying to poach.
 
Also, couple reports Big 12 is looking to do
this to bring back actual numbers to PAC 12 schools they are trying to poach.
Arizona, ASU, Utah, Colorado to B12. Then BIG adds Stanford, Oregon, Washington and ND (Cal if ND stays independent).
 
Arizona, ASU, Utah, Colorado to B12. Then BIG adds Stanford, Oregon, Washington and ND (Cal if ND stays independent).
If the BT takes Oregon and Washington, the Pac will be practically dead. If the BT takes Stanford and Cal it will be dead than a doornail. That would mean that AZ St, UAZ, Utah, and Colorado would have to be in the Big XII. BYU, TTU, TCU, Baylor, Houston, Ok St, KU, K-St, and Iowa St would mean 8 schools in CST and 5 in MST.

I note that and leave out the EST schools because 3 time zones is something you do only if you must to survive.

If I were the Big XII, I would then become a Big 14, dropping EST schools and adding San Diego State to have a presence in southern CA.
 
If the BT takes Oregon and Washington, the Pac will be practically dead. If the BT takes Stanford and Cal it will be dead than a doornail. That would mean that AZ St, UAZ, Utah, and Colorado would have to be in the Big XII. BYU, TTU, TCU, Baylor, Houston, Ok St, KU, K-St, and Iowa St would mean 8 schools in CST and 5 in MST.

I note that and leave out the EST schools because 3 time zones is something you do only if you must to survive.

If I were the Big XII, I would then become a Big 14, dropping EST schools and adding San Diego State to have a presence in southern CA.
In my opinion the PAC conference will be dead. Oregon State and Washington State will be the only remaining schools and will be poached by the Mountain West Conference
 

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Also, couple reports Big 12 is looking to do
this to bring back actual numbers to PAC 12 schools they are trying to poach.

Can't see any of the P12 schools leaving. The $ difference would have to be significant, which it won't be. Outside of BYU, all the brands exist in the P12 not the B12. So there is more value in the P12. Plus, why would a P12 school want to go to the B12, sign a GOR, and then not be available should the B1G or SEC come calling?
 

The Bears president has announced that he is retiring at the end of the season. This guy runs a Bears blog and has a few sources within the organization. I thought it was interesting in regards to the ACC working to stay alive.
 

The Bears president has announced that he is retiring at the end of the season. This guy runs a Bears blog and has a few sources within the organization. I thought it was interesting in regards to the ACC working to stay alive.
That would be pretty messed up.
 
Just finished reading most of this thread, and I think there's too much focus on TV sets, cable, etc. Cord cutting is the future and streaming is the future. Apple and Amazon and other will get into the college sports mix at some point, they're already trying.

What's the difference? Well, Rutgers is in the B1G because they gave them a load of cable subscribers. When it goes to streaming packages, fanbase size will matter, brand will matter, and quality of games will matter.

This should also raise the value of prestigious basketball games, too. You could sell UNC-Duke as PayPerView streaming.

Anything the ACC does should focus on preserving the quality of the on-field product while increasing the per-school value of media rights, with an eye towards a streaming future.

The B1G and SEC may wind up regretting some of their expansion plays in 5-10 years when the big money is coming from streaming and they're saddled with more deadweight than they want. I also think they're going to turn perennial double digit win programs into 7-5 programs a lot of years, and that takes away a huge aspect of what makes CFB what it is: anyone can dream. Lots of fanbases go into every season dreaming that a national title is possible, and when they're wrong it means going like 9-3 or something, and feeling like their dreams were realistic. Make that 7-5 a few years in a row, and they'll stop dreaming.

How do you reconcile the difference? I'm basically saying you need some dead weight in the conference AND that dead weight is bad, right? Well, nobody gives a flying you know what about Michigan/Maryland, Ohio State/Rutgers, etc. If you at least have some history there, some regional rivalry, the game is a little more valuable.

The other thing to consider is attempting to let schools keep more of the revenue they personally generate. This would not be advantageous to Syracuse, but it's the only way some of the pie in the sky suggestions ITT make sense. Like I don't see ND ending up in the ACC, but *maybe* if they got to keep all of their post-season revenue instead of sharing it? I don't know, just spitballing on that one.

FWIW if I were the ACC I would be seriously looking at a 21 to 24 team conference with 6 to 8 team divisions that functioned more like their own conferences, had regional integrity, and maintained rivalries. This would allow west coast expansion with minimal travel issues for non-revenue sports. You could also make your best play for Notre Dame (still not a great play but perhaps worth a shot) by letting them have a lot of say over who is in their division and how the rotating games are set up. But also, giving them a conference schedule that included 1-2 of their traditional opponents, while only having 6-8 conference games total and more freedom to schedule non-conference games or non-conference games against conference opponents might let them preserve their national brand despite being in a conference.

Once ND is out of play for the ACC (95% chance that's the case, if I'm being generous), then it gets more complicated. How many schools actually raise the dollar value per school now, versus how many could?

In order to not be at risk of getting raided again, you have to get the dollar value close enough to the B1G/SEC to allow the Clemsons and Florida States to say, "OK, it's not worth it for $10M a year. We've got an easier path to the playoffs here, better rivalries, etc."

But if you just go for pure cash grabs, you create something unsustainable. The B1G cannot stick with just USC and UCLA on the West Coast. They're obviously hoping to lure ND by dangling Stanford, which brings Cal, and then Oregon would make sense. If that doesn't happen, they're going to have to add some of those west coast schools anyway, and it might pull down the per-team payout.

So if the ACC tries to expand, it can't just be adding a Kansas or Oklahoma State or Colorado for dollar signs. That's the thinking that has dominated the last 10 years of expansion and realignment. 10 years from now, it'll be streaming. When the tipping point happens and the thinking shifts, I don't know (probably when Amazon or Apple pay out the ass for some of this content), but I'd like to see the ACC shift its thinking now. I don't care about getting into a state/market for cable subscribers, and I don't care about having too many teams in the same state. I care about fanbases and good games for viewers.

So think about who brings a lot of value AND makes sense to be playing current ACC teams, even on a rotating basis. As a Syracuse fan, I think it would be kind of cool to play Stanford and Cal in both sports. Washington in basketball currently for obvious reasons. Arizona in basketball. UConn in basketball. Kansas in basketball. WVU in both.

Make a list for every important team in the ACC, look for names that pop up on multiple lists, and you've got a good start to the way this stuff should be done by a forward-thinking power conference. Then you hope some of those teams match up with each other to come in together, and go from there.

Oh, and by the way, from a Syracuse perspective, the AD should be doing three things:

1. Spend as much as possible on football.
2. Spend as much as possible on basketball.
3. Anywhere the schools retain rights, create valuable content - streaming, Facebook, IG, TikTok, etc.

We're spending like 40% of what FSU spends on football. Closing the gap won't turn us into Clemson, but it might move us up a few notches as this all shakes out. Since we're going to be on the bubble if it goes to two super conferences, those last few notches may be all that matters.
 
Just finished reading most of this thread, and I think there's too much focus on TV sets, cable, etc. Cord cutting is the future and streaming is the future. Apple and Amazon and other will get into the college sports mix at some point, they're already trying.

What's the difference? Well, Rutgers is in the B1G because they gave them a load of cable subscribers. When it goes to streaming packages, fanbase size will matter, brand will matter, and quality of games will matter.

This should also raise the value of prestigious basketball games, too. You could sell UNC-Duke as PayPerView streaming.

Anything the ACC does should focus on preserving the quality of the on-field product while increasing the per-school value of media rights, with an eye towards a streaming future.

The B1G and SEC may wind up regretting some of their expansion plays in 5-10 years when the big money is coming from streaming and they're saddled with more deadweight than they want. I also think they're going to turn perennial double digit win programs into 7-5 programs a lot of years, and that takes away a huge aspect of what makes CFB what it is: anyone can dream. Lots of fanbases go into every season dreaming that a national title is possible, and when they're wrong it means going like 9-3 or something, and feeling like their dreams were realistic. Make that 7-5 a few years in a row, and they'll stop dreaming.

How do you reconcile the difference? I'm basically saying you need some dead weight in the conference AND that dead weight is bad, right? Well, nobody gives a flying you know what about Michigan/Maryland, Ohio State/Rutgers, etc. If you at least have some history there, some regional rivalry, the game is a little more valuable.

The other thing to consider is attempting to let schools keep more of the revenue they personally generate. This would not be advantageous to Syracuse, but it's the only way some of the pie in the sky suggestions ITT make sense. Like I don't see ND ending up in the ACC, but *maybe* if they got to keep all of their post-season revenue instead of sharing it? I don't know, just spitballing on that one.

FWIW if I were the ACC I would be seriously looking at a 21 to 24 team conference with 6 to 8 team divisions that functioned more like their own conferences, had regional integrity, and maintained rivalries. This would allow west coast expansion with minimal travel issues for non-revenue sports. You could also make your best play for Notre Dame (still not a great play but perhaps worth a shot) by letting them have a lot of say over who is in their division and how the rotating games are set up. But also, giving them a conference schedule that included 1-2 of their traditional opponents, while only having 6-8 conference games total and more freedom to schedule non-conference games or non-conference games against conference opponents might let them preserve their national brand despite being in a conference.

Once ND is out of play for the ACC (95% chance that's the case, if I'm being generous), then it gets more complicated. How many schools actually raise the dollar value per school now, versus how many could?

In order to not be at risk of getting raided again, you have to get the dollar value close enough to the B1G/SEC to allow the Clemsons and Florida States to say, "OK, it's not worth it for $10M a year. We've got an easier path to the playoffs here, better rivalries, etc."

But if you just go for pure cash grabs, you create something unsustainable. The B1G cannot stick with just USC and UCLA on the West Coast. They're obviously hoping to lure ND by dangling Stanford, which brings Cal, and then Oregon would make sense. If that doesn't happen, they're going to have to add some of those west coast schools anyway, and it might pull down the per-team payout.

So if the ACC tries to expand, it can't just be adding a Kansas or Oklahoma State or Colorado for dollar signs. That's the thinking that has dominated the last 10 years of expansion and realignment. 10 years from now, it'll be streaming. When the tipping point happens and the thinking shifts, I don't know (probably when Amazon or Apple pay out the ass for some of this content), but I'd like to see the ACC shift its thinking now. I don't care about getting into a state/market for cable subscribers, and I don't care about having too many teams in the same state. I care about fanbases and good games for viewers.

So think about who brings a lot of value AND makes sense to be playing current ACC teams, even on a rotating basis. As a Syracuse fan, I think it would be kind of cool to play Stanford and Cal in both sports. Washington in basketball currently for obvious reasons. Arizona in basketball. UConn in basketball. Kansas in basketball. WVU in both.

Make a list for every important team in the ACC, look for names that pop up on multiple lists, and you've got a good start to the way this stuff should be done by a forward-thinking power conference. Then you hope some of those teams match up with each other to come in together, and go from there.

Oh, and by the way, from a Syracuse perspective, the AD should be doing three things:

1. Spend as much as possible on football.
2. Spend as much as possible on basketball.
3. Anywhere the schools retain rights, create valuable content - streaming, Facebook, IG, TikTok, etc.

We're spending like 40% of what FSU spends on football. Closing the gap won't turn us into Clemson, but it might move us up a few notches as this all shakes out. Since we're going to be on the bubble if it goes to two super conferences, those last few notches may be all that matters.
Holy Shlit, I’ll just wait for the mini series on this one.
 
Holy Shlit, I’ll just wait for the mini series on this one.
Cliffs: the last decade or so of realignment was driven by cable tv subscribers. The future is streaming. Size of fanbase, dedication level of fanbase, brand value, and quality of games matters for streaming subscriptions.

Hopefully the ACC and Syracuse are forward-thinking in that regard.
 
Cliffs: the last decade or so of realignment was driven by cable tv subscribers. The future is streaming. Size of fanbase, dedication level of fanbase, brand value, and quality of games matters for streaming subscriptions.

Hopefully the ACC and Syracuse are forward-thinking in that regard.
The PAC tried that avenue and branched out to Asia, where they draw a large number of student recruits. It remains to be seen whether they were ahead of their time.

I agree with you in principle but to date, online streaming does not yield the actual dollars of fans in the sears and cable boxes. I hope there is a balancing in the near future, but it has not yet materialized.

Rutgers is still rewarded for two things:

1: being next to NYC, though they have no fans there, per viewing services
2: being an overpaid body bag game for the big four in the B1G East, allowing them to appear to play no FCS games.*


*When Rutgers can put together a winning history against P5 level teams over a period of 20 years, they can lose their " FCS" label
 
I agree with you in principle but to date, online streaming does not yield the actual dollars of fans in the sears and cable boxes. I hope there is a balancing in the near future, but it has not yet materialized.
It's very possible that the way this goes down is that the revenue from TV/cable drops more than streaming increases. Right now there are a lot of people paying (through their cable company) for Big 10 Network that don't actually want it. So basically the majority of people are subsidizing the paydays going to the B1G and other conferences.

If/when that ends, the whole landscape changes quite a bit.
 
The PAC tried that avenue and branched out to Asia, where they draw a large number of student recruits. It remains to be seen whether they were ahead of their time.

I agree with you in principle but to date, online streaming does not yield the actual dollars of fans in the sears and cable boxes. I hope there is a balancing in the near future, but it has not yet materialized.

Rutgers is still rewarded for two things:

1: being next to NYC, though they have no fans there, per viewing services
2: being an overpaid body bag game for the big four in the B1G East, allowing them to appear to play no FCS games.*


*When Rutgers can put together a winning history against P5 level teams over a period of 20 years, they can lose their " FCS" label
A winning history without the help of Big10 refs. Guessing the Big supplied the refs for their game at BC.
 
In my opinion the PAC conference will be dead. Oregon State and Washington State will be the only remaining schools and will be poached by the Mountain West Conference
You think the BT is going to take UAZ, AZ St, and Utah?
 
Just finished reading most of this thread, and I think there's too much focus on TV sets, cable, etc. Cord cutting is the future and streaming is the future. Apple and Amazon and other will get into the college sports mix at some point, they're already trying.

What's the difference? Well, Rutgers is in the B1G because they gave them a load of cable subscribers. When it goes to streaming packages, fanbase size will matter, brand will matter, and quality of games will matter.

This should also raise the value of prestigious basketball games, too. You could sell UNC-Duke as PayPerView streaming.

Anything the ACC does should focus on preserving the quality of the on-field product while increasing the per-school value of media rights, with an eye towards a streaming future.

The B1G and SEC may wind up regretting some of their expansion plays in 5-10 years when the big money is coming from streaming and they're saddled with more deadweight than they want. I also think they're going to turn perennial double digit win programs into 7-5 programs a lot of years, and that takes away a huge aspect of what makes CFB what it is: anyone can dream. Lots of fanbases go into every season dreaming that a national title is possible, and when they're wrong it means going like 9-3 or something, and feeling like their dreams were realistic. Make that 7-5 a few years in a row, and they'll stop dreaming.

How do you reconcile the difference? I'm basically saying you need some dead weight in the conference AND that dead weight is bad, right? Well, nobody gives a flying you know what about Michigan/Maryland, Ohio State/Rutgers, etc. If you at least have some history there, some regional rivalry, the game is a little more valuable.

The other thing to consider is attempting to let schools keep more of the revenue they personally generate. This would not be advantageous to Syracuse, but it's the only way some of the pie in the sky suggestions ITT make sense. Like I don't see ND ending up in the ACC, but *maybe* if they got to keep all of their post-season revenue instead of sharing it? I don't know, just spitballing on that one.

FWIW if I were the ACC I would be seriously looking at a 21 to 24 team conference with 6 to 8 team divisions that functioned more like their own conferences, had regional integrity, and maintained rivalries. This would allow west coast expansion with minimal travel issues for non-revenue sports. You could also make your best play for Notre Dame (still not a great play but perhaps worth a shot) by letting them have a lot of say over who is in their division and how the rotating games are set up. But also, giving them a conference schedule that included 1-2 of their traditional opponents, while only having 6-8 conference games total and more freedom to schedule non-conference games or non-conference games against conference opponents might let them preserve their national brand despite being in a conference.

Once ND is out of play for the ACC (95% chance that's the case, if I'm being generous), then it gets more complicated. How many schools actually raise the dollar value per school now, versus how many could?

In order to not be at risk of getting raided again, you have to get the dollar value close enough to the B1G/SEC to allow the Clemsons and Florida States to say, "OK, it's not worth it for $10M a year. We've got an easier path to the playoffs here, better rivalries, etc."

But if you just go for pure cash grabs, you create something unsustainable. The B1G cannot stick with just USC and UCLA on the West Coast. They're obviously hoping to lure ND by dangling Stanford, which brings Cal, and then Oregon would make sense. If that doesn't happen, they're going to have to add some of those west coast schools anyway, and it might pull down the per-team payout.

So if the ACC tries to expand, it can't just be adding a Kansas or Oklahoma State or Colorado for dollar signs. That's the thinking that has dominated the last 10 years of expansion and realignment. 10 years from now, it'll be streaming. When the tipping point happens and the thinking shifts, I don't know (probably when Amazon or Apple pay out the ass for some of this content), but I'd like to see the ACC shift its thinking now. I don't care about getting into a state/market for cable subscribers, and I don't care about having too many teams in the same state. I care about fanbases and good games for viewers.

So think about who brings a lot of value AND makes sense to be playing current ACC teams, even on a rotating basis. As a Syracuse fan, I think it would be kind of cool to play Stanford and Cal in both sports. Washington in basketball currently for obvious reasons. Arizona in basketball. UConn in basketball. Kansas in basketball. WVU in both.

Make a list for every important team in the ACC, look for names that pop up on multiple lists, and you've got a good start to the way this stuff should be done by a forward-thinking power conference. Then you hope some of those teams match up with each other to come in together, and go from there.

Oh, and by the way, from a Syracuse perspective, the AD should be doing three things:

1. Spend as much as possible on football.
2. Spend as much as possible on basketball.
3. Anywhere the schools retain rights, create valuable content - streaming, Facebook, IG, TikTok, etc.

We're spending like 40% of what FSU spends on football. Closing the gap won't turn us into Clemson, but it might move us up a few notches as this all shakes out. Since we're going to be on the bubble if it goes to two super conferences, those last few notches may be all that matters.
The SEC hasn't added any dead weight. SoCar only averages 75K almost every single season, and their fans watch games on TV too. Missouri has a smaller football fan base but a larger basketball fan base than SoCar, and MO is a larger state that is not shared. Neither is dead weight. Nor are Arkansas, Texas A&M, Texas, and OU.

But Rutgers is dead weight. And Maryland football is very close to dead weight. Nebraska still has far too many fans to be dead weight, but Nebraska may never again have a decade close to what it had in its glory days from the 1960s through the 1990s.

I agree that the ACC has to act by making OOC schedules much more interesting. We should outlaw playing 1AA/FCS teams, and we should all strive not to play G5 teams on the road. We all need to play 2 P5s each year.
 
Nebraska still has far too many fans to be dead weight, but Nebraska may never again have a decade close to what it had in its glory days from the 1960s through the 1990s.
I think Nebraska will go wild with the NIL, all the people and businesses in that state are 100% crazy about their football team.
 
You think the BT is going to take UAZ, AZ St, and Utah?
No i think the Big 12 would love to add UA ASU CU UU but since the college football playoff will soon be expanded to 12 it may put a stop on Big Ten expansion. if that happens I could see the PAC expanding and adding some combination of SDSU BSU KU UH TCU BYU Okie St
 
A winning history without the help of Big10 refs. Guessing the Big supplied the refs for their game at BC.
I think they did. I believe the road team supplies the conference officials.
 
MO is a larger state that is not shared.
Part of my argument is that the size of a state/cable tv market is irrelevant once things go to streaming. What matters is how many people actually want to watch a game and how many people are willing to pay for it. I do agree that the SEC has a lot less dead weight than the B1G, but I think they'd be better off without Missouri, and while it's not due to expansion, Vandy. They've done a better job of sticking to their brand while expanding.

But Rutgers is dead weight. And Maryland football is very close to dead weight. Nebraska still has far too many fans to be dead weight, but Nebraska may never again have a decade close to what it had in its glory days from the 1960s through the 1990s.
I agree with all of that. Another way to think about some of this is that pulling a school out of their old conference automatically destroys some of their value. Like obviously UNC is still valuable regardless, but if the B1G pulls them and not Duke, you've destroyed a big chunk of value - those twice a year rivalry games, because that rivalry will weaken if it's a once a year non-conference game.

That's something I think the ACC should be cognizant of in any expansion attempts, and it's why going big and then splitting into divisions makes a lot of sense IMO. At the end of the day, you have to be putting a product on the field that the fans are excited to watch. USC and UCLA have value regardless, but a lot of these games are going to just feel weird and be less valuable. USC at Oregon is a more valuable game than USC at Wisconsin.

I agree that the ACC has to act by making OOC schedules much more interesting.

This is a good idea that will help a little bit around the edges, but shouldn't be their main strategy. Like this alone isn't enough to survive, is what I'm saying. But it helps.
 
With the expansion of the playoffs to 12 teams, you can take ND out of any projected league membership. They have zero need to change the status quo and will gladly trade topping out in the 5 vs. 12 game for their independence. And with 12 teams now in, they will make the CFP most years, with a slot in the Orange Bowl vs. the top remaining ACC team or another ACC bowl slot as consolation prize when they don't.
 

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