watching the first half again | Syracusefan.com

watching the first half again

upperdeck

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We wasted some really solid play calling.. the WR pass and the HB toss back play . both perfect calls and no D around and messed them both up.. Then add in the over throw of the tucker wheel route.. thats 3 tds chances and got nothing.

Even on the first few plays Shrader was off on a couple pretty easy throws then we took a couple holding calls and we wasted a couple series.

We make 1-2 of those simple throws and its a different game at the half.

We went long stretches on no DB pressure until the got inside the 40 in the first half so yeah he throw like 17-18 but it was almost all just pitch and catch with a few nice balls added in and Jones is hard to handle.. But again we played so much soft zone the TE had a field day most of the time.

also should have been a walk in for the 2 pt play , but i doubt they spend all that much time practicing blocking on 80- yds plays the TE made a nice play just staying in the play
 

Orangeman

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We wasted some really solid play calling.. the WR pass and the HB toss back play . both perfect calls and no D around and messed them both up.. Then add in the over throw of the tucker wheel route.. thats 3 tds chances and got nothing.

Even on the first few plays Shrader was off on a couple pretty easy throws then we took a couple holding calls and we wasted a couple series.

We make 1-2 of those simple throws and its a different game at the half.

We went long stretches on no DB pressure until the got inside the 40 in the first half so yeah he throw like 17-18 but it was almost all just pitch and catch with a few nice balls added in and Jones is hard to handle.. But again we played so much soft zone the TE had a field day most of the time.

also should have been a walk in for the 2 pt play , but i doubt they spend all that much time practicing blocking on 80- yds plays the TE made a nice play just staying in the play

I think they run Tucker out of the Backfield about 60% too much...it just hasn't resulted in him being a pass receiver (rolling him out of the backfield has) and removes a stress-point of the defense (i.e. him running the ball).

Yes, there were open plays there, but they haven't connected. It felt to me like they either felt 1) we need to show pro-scouts that Tucker is "that" kind of back or 2) we noticed something about match-ups/coverage and wanted to work that...but it didn't work either way.
 

ImperialOrange

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I was dejected at half time knowing how many points we left on the field. Offense left 10-14 on missed wide open plays, plus missed field goal and 2 pt return. Glad we pulled it off in the end or we'd all be lamenting as much. We should have walked a surprisingly good football team by 20
 

David332

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Not sure who the play by play guy was on tv but his constant screaming in the highlights is irritating.
 

money3189

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I think they run Tucker out of the Backfield about 60% too much...it just hasn't resulted in him being a pass receiver (rolling him out of the backfield has) and removes a stress-point of the defense (i.e. him running the ball).
Tucker catching the ball on swing routes is not always the goal. running routes manipulates the defense. It clears out the apex defender or makes the corner squeeze. That itself opens up the intermediate routes.
 

upperdeck

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Tucker catching the ball on swing routes is not always the goal. running routes manipulates the defense. It clears out the apex defender or makes the corner squeeze. That itself opens up the intermediate routes.
as Money says it does more than just open him up for swing passes.. we toss him the short ones and have done well with that.. The wheel routes were open multiple times but the throws were poor. if teams want to continue to send a LB out to cover that its gonna be open. just using the motion so much better this year has created some wide open throws. It forces teams to hand guys off and change reads so much better than the old stagnate ways we did it.

We still havent used the jet sweep just to force the outside LB to stay home a beat. I would think that will come soon as well. That might be a good spot to get Allen into a game since he seems to have good hands and could play some limited slot stuff until Pena comes back.
 

Orangeman

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Tucker catching the ball on swing routes is not always the goal. running routes manipulates the defense. It clears out the apex defender or makes the corner squeeze. That itself opens up the intermediate routes.

I understand all that (probably not as well as you or some others), and I didn't say it should never happen, but I think it happens way too much.

For example, and I'll get some of this wrong, but we get the ball with like 4 mins left, up a score and all we need is two FDs and game over (I believe Purdue had 2 TOs left at this point).

First down, we run Tucker out to the sideline, and now since the Defense knows we're running it anyway, they just key in on Schrader and dropped him for a 5 yard loss on the QB draw, which was a real killer and led to them regaining the lead with 51 secs left.

Would love to see a fake toss sweep to him instead and attack the other direction or something. JMO
 

money3189

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I understand all that (probably not as well as you or some others), and I didn't say it should never happen, but I think it happens way too much.

For example, and I'll get some of this wrong, but we get the ball with like 4 mins left, up a score and all we need is two FDs and game over (I believe Purdue had 2 TOs left at this point).

First down, we run Tucker out to the sideline, and now since the Defense knows we're running it anyway, they just key in on Schrader and dropped him for a 5 yard loss on the QB draw, which was a real killer and led to them regaining the lead with 51 secs left.

Would love to see a fake toss sweep to him instead and attack the other direction or something. JMO
OK now you are getting into specific situations and play calls. All I can say is every thing is not going to go as planned. The other team game plans and make plays as well. Lots of things factor into success or lack of success during a specific play. Doesnt mean its a bad play.
 
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upperdeck

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Purdue might not be the best D we will play, but they have the size that we havent seen so far.. If we struggle to run, then passing becomes harder. When Shrader is off which he was much of the game his running saves us. But then him running so much wears him down as well. I would rather we ran then threw instead of throw then run that last sequence.. But also if we complete the pass its probably game over and Purdue wasnt really ready for it. Its just a hard throw to make..

Our lack of a real #1 Wr is what limits our top end. We dont have anyone that the other team has to really control with a safety which means they can play the cover 1-2 any way they want to help the run or pass. if Alford could really get by people consistently that would force teams to move a safety and open things back up.
 

blizz

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Purdue might not be the best D we will play, but they have the size that we havent seen so far.. If we struggle to run, then passing becomes harder. When Shrader is off which he was much of the game his running saves us. But then him running so much wears him down as well. I would rather we ran then threw instead of throw then run that last sequence.. But also if we complete the pass its probably game over and Purdue wasnt really ready for it. Its just a hard throw to make..

Our lack of a real #1 Wr is what limits our top end. We dont have anyone that the other team has to really control with a safety which means they can play the cover 1-2 any way they want to help the run or pass. if Alford could really get by people consistently that would force teams to move a safety and open things back up.
What Purdue did was play their safeties way up in the box and left their corners and nickel on islands in man coverage. I really think we needed to throw the ball anyway into man coverage and challenge that coverage. Shrader did this more in the second half with mixed results but I think that's what opened the game up.
 

upperdeck

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Purdue really tried to stop the run and play Man.. Wont be the last time we see that from and it may be the method most teams do it going forward.. for sure NCst and Clemson probably ND/FSU.

If we cant find WR to make them soften it up a bit then we have to do something and the something Sat was hit the big plays when you dial them up.. Cant miss all of them when they are all wide open.

If we had a #1 like jones things would get so much easier.
 

HRE Otto IV

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Purdue really tried to stop the run and play Man.. Wont be the last time we see that from and it may be the method most teams do it going forward.. for sure NCst and Clemson probably ND/FSU.

If we cant find WR to make them soften it up a bit then we have to do something and the something Sat was hit the big plays when you dial them up.. Cant miss all of them when they are all wide open.

If we had a #1 like jones things would get so much easier.

Shrader couldn't connect with Tucker all game. That killed. He also missed some guys underneath. It also doesn't help when we have both Mang and Hoeh out there at the same time.
 

blizz

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Purdue really tried to stop the run and play Man.. Wont be the last time we see that from and it may be the method most teams do it going forward.. for sure NCst and Clemson probably ND/FSU.

If we cant find WR to make them soften it up a bit then we have to do something and the something Sat was hit the big plays when you dial them up.. Cant miss all of them when they are all wide open.

If we had a #1 like jones things would get so much easier.
I think the key to this is attacking the outside in the run game with outside zone and zone read and then trying to exploit matchups in the intermediate passing game and simply get comfortable with throwing into coverage and trusting the wide receivers to exploit leverage and go get the ball. We have to be able to challenge man coverage and hurt teams that try to play man.
 

PhatOrange

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What Purdue did was play their safeties way up in the box and left their corners and nickel on islands in man coverage. I really think we needed to throw the ball anyway into man coverage and challenge that coverage. Shrader did this more in the second half with mixed results but I think that's what opened the game up.

agreed.

The announcers said a few times that Shrader needs to throw the ball. I doubt they were saying he should throw the ball to covered guys. Guys might have been open enough and to your point sometimes you need to throw the ball into the man coverage and have your guy go make a play.

There were guys open vs Louisville that Shrader either didn't see or refused to throw it so I doubt nobody was open against Purdue. I frankly don't think his vision is as good as people think it is...I'm not sure he's actually going through progressions as much as he's just waiting for his first read to break open (which to me is why he’s not seeing receivers who are open like the Louisville game)
 
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money3189

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I think the key to this is attacking the outside in the run game with outside zone and zone read and then trying to exploit matchups in the intermediate passing game and simply get comfortable with throwing into coverage and trusting the wide receivers to exploit leverage and go get the ball. We have to be able to challenge man coverage and hurt teams that try to play man.
I agree. There might not be enough guys showing they can win battles. That makes QB's hesitant to throw into tight coverage. Shrader ended up running, something he does natually. Its hard to play man with a QB that can take off and run. Hopefully guys will step up so we can add that dimension to the pass game. Like you said, we have to be able to exploit teams when they play man.
 

blizz

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I agree. There might not be enough guys showing they can win battles. That makes QB's hesitant to throw into tight coverage. Shrader ended up running, something he does natually. Its hard to play man with a QB that can take off and run. Hopefully guys will step up so we can add that dimension to the pass game. Like you said, we have to be able to exploit teams when they play man.
Don't get me wrong, they matched up really well on the outside, and the few times he threw into leverage in the first half, bad things happened. The safety recovered on Tucker pretty easily, partly because the ball was underthrown and Jones got bullied on a good throw into the boundary. I just think with that same look where the linebackers aren't even worried about fitting to the outside and the dline are holding their gaps well, you have to take your chances and throw to leverage against the best matchup you have pre-snap. You have to try and punish them for giving you a look where they are clearly daring you to throw the ball.
 

money3189

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Don't get me wrong, they matched up really well on the outside, and the few times he threw into leverage in the first half, bad things happened. The safety recovered on Tucker pretty easily, partly because the ball was underthrown and Jones got bullied on a good throw into the boundary. I just think with that same look where the linebackers aren't even worried about fitting to the outside and the dline are holding their gaps well, you have to take your chances and throw to leverage against the best matchup you have pre-snap. You have to try and punish them for giving you a look where they are clearly daring you to throw the ball.
Good points
 

kcsu

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Our passing game is weak. Shrader has average arm talent and our WRs are ok but we dont have a stud. Fortunately we have a brilliant OC who can make something out of what we do have which is a great rb and a great running threat at QB. If we had a top WR it would make all the difference in the world. Maybe someone emerges.
 

TheCusian

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Our passing game is weak. Shrader has average arm talent and our WRs are ok but we dont have a stud. Fortunately we have a brilliant OC who can make something out of what we do have which is a great rb and a great running threat at QB. If we had a top WR it would make all the difference in the world. Maybe someone emerges.
Maybe someone already has
 

CbusCuse

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Maybe someone already has
I know he didn't show it all yet because he was injured but I really think Jones was maybe our best shot at being a number 1. I really like Gadsden but I like him better in the TE hybrid role he is in and am hoping he stays there. I feel like a majority of the plays he is making is where he is schemed open or is beating a LB or Nickle Back. He is executing what he is given though and doing a great job. I don't think he has been going against top corners and beating them like an outiside WR has to do. And that is quite a bit more difficult I think.
 

sufandu

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I know he didn't show it all yet because he was injured but I really think Jones was maybe our best shot at being a number 1. I really like Gadsden but I like him better in the TE hybrid role he is in and am hoping he stays there. I feel like a majority of the plays he is making is where he is schemed open or is beating a LB or Nickle Back. He is executing what he is given though and doing a great job. I don't think he has been going against top corners and beating them like an outiside WR has to do. And that is quite a bit more difficult I think.
Can't Gadsden be a #1 guy from that position? It seems like that's the most versatile place to play out of which could make him the biggest threat and best opportunity to scheme mismatches.
 

upperdeck

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Jones was playing well but he really was limited in what he was really running. They key is that Jones/Alford are mostly running routes against some zone and also the 2/3/4 best DBs of every team in man. Alford has made those same catches when focused. Jones missed time in pre-season as well so someone was working on those same routes then. He was playing big and made some contested catches. Its not like he was running wide open every game, he only saw a few passes go his way. Gasden is running against LB/Safeties and the motion routes are getting him open on many plays. If we move him to a more traditional spot he will see better defenders and also move him out of the blocking routes. Not really a help to the offense.

We probably see more cooper which is fine but we need to see an outside guy step up in the sets we want to run.. Running is gonna be harder to do as the season goes on if we cant make teams play us more honest in the passing game.
 

CbusCuse

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Can't Gadsden be a #1 guy from that position? It seems like that's the most versatile place to play out of which could make him the biggest threat and best opportunity to scheme mismatches.
Yeah certainly he can be a number one option. I guess I just always think as a #1 as a WR from a more traditional outside WR spot.
 

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