We’re just unlucky too

[Dinkyspond]

How many? I remember 2.

Va. Tech, Ga. Tech, FSU, Duke II and III, Clemson, Virginia, NCSU, Pitt in ACCT, Baylor, ODU, probably others too, even in wins

 

[kingtidge]

If we could play man we win going away. Last time we tried, we got our doors blown off by a Division 8 team, in our building.

I think that loss was planned so people would shut up about it.

We have a HOF coach that is more than well qualified to teach M2M well if he wanted to.

He did 2+ decades with M2M and started going predominantly zone in 1996.

Of course, the exhibition v. LeMoyne on 11/3/2009 stuck a fork in any M2M sets we had been working with

By 2010, JAB had abandoned all M2M sets entirely and we went exclusively zone.

After the 2009 loss to Lemoyne:

COACH BOEHEIM: Everyone keeps complaining about the zone so we tried man," Boeheim said after the stunning loss to a Division II team. "Everyone is smarter than the coach. We're done trying man.

From and ASAP Sports Interview, 4/1/2013:

Q. When did you start doing this zone exclusively? In the '96 run, were you doing all 2‑3 at that point? Also, just wondering if the way your team is playing it now, where does it compare with your best teams in terms of playing the zone?

COACH BOEHEIM: Well, until '96 we played some man every year. In the exhibition games, non‑conference games, even the conference games we played some man. We continued doing that probably up to '03. '03 we pretty much played all zone, and after '03 we still played some man, but it really probably hasn't been until '10, 2010, when we lost the exhibition game to Le Moyne, we just said, We're going to spend more time on our zone. We still spend some time man‑to‑man, but mostly it's zone for the last two, three years, pretty much exclusively zone in all of our games.

 

[General20]

Va. Tech, Ga. Tech, FSU, Duke II and III, Clemson, Virginia, NCSU, Pitt in ACCT, Baylor, ODU, probably others too, even in wins

I'm not going to look up all those games, but I just looked up Old Dominion. They shot 36% from 3 against us. If that is the definition of getting lit up then half the country gets lit up from 3 every game.

Perhaps we've been a little too spoiled with our great defenses lately to have real perspective on this issue?

 

[HoustonCuse]

Unless you actually watch the Baylor/Gonzaga game and see that the shots they are getting against Gonzaga's man defense are just as open as the shots they were getting against our zone defense.

General, I love the fact that someone with your basketball knowledge is trying to wade in but I think it’s a waste of time. These guys are dug in and they’re in an echo chamber regarding the group think they’ve developed surrounding Boeheim’s personnel and game strategy. Nobody wants to have a conversation, they want to dictate a viewpoint.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I think that loss was planned so people would shut up about it.

We have a HOF coach that is more than well qualified to teach M2M well if he wanted to.

He did 2+ decades with M2M and started going predominantly zone in 1996.

Of course, the exhibition v. LeMoyne on 11/3/2009 stuck a fork in any M2M sets we had been working with

By 2010, JAB had abandoned all M2M sets entirely and we went exclusively zone.

After the 2009 loss to Lemoyne:

COACH BOEHEIM: Everyone keeps complaining about the zone so we tried man," Boeheim said after the stunning loss to a Division II team. "Everyone is smarter than the coach. We're done trying man.

From and ASAP Sports Interview, 4/1/2013:

Q. When did you start doing this zone exclusively? In the '96 run, were you doing all 2‑3 at that point? Also, just wondering if the way your team is playing it now, where does it compare with your best teams in terms of playing the zone?

COACH BOEHEIM: Well, until '96 we played some man every year. In the exhibition games, non‑conference games, even the conference games we played some man. We continued doing that probably up to '03. '03 we pretty much played all zone, and after '03 we still played some man, but it really probably hasn't been until '10, 2010, when we lost the exhibition game to Le Moyne, we just said, We're going to spend more time on our zone. We still spend some time man‑to‑man, but mostly it's zone for the last two, three years, pretty much exclusively zone in all of our games.

Also, Boeheim planned and executed 9/11.

 

[General20]

General, I love the fact that someone with your basketball knowledge is trying to wade in but I think it’s a waste of time. These guys are dug in and they’re in an echo chamber regarding the group think they’ve developed surrounding Boeheim’s personnel and game strategy. Nobody wants to have a conversation, they want to dictate a viewpoint.

You are 100% right and I haven't done this in years but I have some very rare free time, and what can I say, it's tourney time and I'm a basketball junky. I just like talking about it.

 

[kingtidge]

Also, Boeheim planned and executed 9/11.

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy.

But think about it.

"We tried playing man, we can't do it."

...is something no other basketball coach said ever.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

If we could play man we win going away. Last time we tried, we got our doors blown off by a Division 8 team, in our building.

Maybe the coach should be better at teaching
It then

 

[kingtidge]

General, I love the fact that someone with your basketball knowledge is trying to wade in but I think it’s a waste of time. These guys are dug in and they’re in an echo chamber regarding the group think they’ve developed surrounding Boeheim’s personnel and game strategy. Nobody wants to have a conversation, they want to dictate a viewpoint.

Pluuuheeze...

If you can't have engaging debate on this forum, why is it here?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Va. Tech, Ga. Tech, FSU, Duke II and III, Clemson, Virginia, NCSU, Pitt in ACCT, Baylor, ODU, probably others too, even in wins

I actually looked this up. Check the thread.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy.

But think about it.

"We tried playing man, we can't do it."

...is something no other basketball coach said ever.

The thing about this is that you’re not giving any credit for actual results. Forget the details, in that very season, Coach Boeheim led his team to the #1 ranking, a big east title, and probably much more if AO didn’t get hurt. So whatever he could or couldn’t do, whatever he said, whatever he did, whatever techniques he employed, they worked as well as can be done. There is no better ranking than #1.

 

[samspann1]

How many teams shot over their 3-pt season percentage against us this year?

 

[CsonkaStash]

General, I love the fact that someone with your basketball knowledge is trying to wade in but I think it’s a waste of time. These guys are dug in and they’re in an echo chamber regarding the group think they’ve developed surrounding Boeheim’s personnel and game strategy. Nobody wants to have a conversation, they want to dictate a viewpoint.

My original point is that Baylor just had a great shooting day and even playing man probably would not have made a difference. I think in the Virginia game for maybe a little but it might have but who knows.

Zone did not cost us that game, I actually think not having Frank to close out hurt us a little and also with boards. Frank tended to find some rebounds when he was in there. I do wish we had the personnel to trap a little more out of the zone like we used to

 

[OttoinGrotto]

How many teams shot over their 3-pt season percentage against us this year?

Listen, I make some bad choices, it's true, but I am not gonna spend the time looking that up.

 

[kingtidge]

The thing about this is that you’re not giving any credit for actual results. Forget the details, in that very season, Coach Boeheim led his team to the #1 ranking, a big east title, and probably much more if AO didn’t get hurt. So whatever he could or couldn’t do, whatever he said, whatever he did, whatever techniques he employed, they worked as well as can be done. There is no better ranking than #1.

Jim Boeheim is a syracuse legend.

He is syracuse basketball.

I have followed him since he took over the program when I was 5 years old. My father and grandfather went to SU and I grew up in a heavily pro-orange household.

I've said no such thing about his success and results. He has built this program and deserves all the credit for it.

I HAVE said that going exclusively zone in the current college game is showing more and more limitations.

The game has changed, recruiting has changed, and we should change with it.

If that is viewed by some as some sort of heresy or blasphemy, so be it.

It's not that at all.

It's a difference of opinion.

 

[Killdozer]

My issue is not the type of defense JB plays, it's that he doesn't adapt to his players strengths. He will always stay with the script whether it is working or not. Then in the press conference he indicates that his players are "just not there yet".

 

[orangenauburn]

if a team makes a lot of 3s but does it while shooting it at a low percentage more or less plays into jb's hands

so take a look at opponents who made 10 or more 3s vs syracuse while shooting over 35%
uconn 12/21 loss
vpi 14/30 loss
fsu 11/22 loss
uva 18/25 loss
pitt 10/23 win
baylor 16/34 loss

of course this is not a zone thing; opponents making a lot of triples at a high percentage is bad news for any team

That's called living and dying by the 3

Those teams just happened to live

 

[Todoubled23]

Yes, Frank was definitely not the same player defensively this season. And the team as a whole never really gelled on the defensive end for long stretches, even though the pieces seemed to be there. Last season they were really locking down opponents consistently at the end of the year.

Selfishly always wished Marek stayed in the starting lineup. Always felt that good defense is easier to be consistent even if your shots aren't falling.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

6 FREAKING YEARS AGO...these kids were in grade school then

Whether or not our current players remember that (or even saw it) is irrelevant to my post.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Maybe the coach should be better at teaching
It then

Yah. I'm sayin'.
But, i don't know what happened or why we all of a sudden couldn't play it.

There was a time when we were playing all zone in games, but reports said we practiced all man. Never understood that. It was during that period that we 'tried' to play Man in the pre-league games, and failed miserably. None of the experts or insiders ever offered an explanation for either.

I think that happened for a few years, where we flashed man in the early season and it didn't work, and then JB just scrapped it entirely. So, it wasn't just limited to one particular roster.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I think that loss was planned so people would shut up about it.

We have a HOF coach that is more than well qualified to teach M2M well if he wanted to.

He did 2+ decades with M2M and started going predominantly zone in 1996.

Of course, the exhibition v. LeMoyne on 11/3/2009 stuck a fork in any M2M sets we had been working with

By 2010, JAB had abandoned all M2M sets entirely and we went exclusively zone.

After the 2009 loss to Lemoyne:

COACH BOEHEIM: Everyone keeps complaining about the zone so we tried man," Boeheim said after the stunning loss to a Division II team. "Everyone is smarter than the coach. We're done trying man.

From and ASAP Sports Interview, 4/1/2013:

Q. When did you start doing this zone exclusively? In the '96 run, were you doing all 2‑3 at that point? Also, just wondering if the way your team is playing it now, where does it compare with your best teams in terms of playing the zone?

COACH BOEHEIM: Well, until '96 we played some man every year. In the exhibition games, non‑conference games, even the conference games we played some man. We continued doing that probably up to '03. '03 we pretty much played all zone, and after '03 we still played some man, but it really probably hasn't been until '10, 2010, when we lost the exhibition game to Le Moyne, we just said, We're going to spend more time on our zone. We still spend some time man‑to‑man, but mostly it's zone for the last two, three years, pretty much exclusively zone in all of our games.

The game i was thinking of—we didn't lose that one. I think we switched to Man in the second half, once we already had a sizable lead, and then we promptly squandered that lead and the other (crappy) team just ran roughshod over us until we switched back to zone.

I'd like to understand what happened. You say JB is well qualified to teach M2m well if he wanted to. Did he not want to (then)? Does he not see the need for it—on occasion—now? For a guy who supposedly watches an insane amount of college hoops, doesn't he see the change/evolution of the game over the past 5-ish years?

Form my perspective, our zone seems to be a 'weapon' like every five years or somesuch. Other years, it's either neutral or a liability. We get excuses like, 'freshman/new players don't understand it yet,' and the like, yet you have to know that every year we will have freshmen and new players on the court. But, whatever. I'm not going to apologize for not liking zone, even when it works. It's just ugly, and i think it's offputting to the top talent. There are reasons why 90% of the other head coaches choose not to devote themselves to it. It's not because JAB is uniquely, preternaturally skilled in teaching it.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Whether or not our current players remember that (or even saw it) is irrelevant to my post.

Of course it is! You just don’t want to admit it.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Of course it is! You just don’t want to admit it.

I guess you know better what i meant by what i wrote. Entirely possible. I'm deranged, donchaknow.

 

[jgeorge322]

Hmm I am wrong, eh?... So only 2 teams lit us up from 3 this year??

Try six teams with 10 or more 3 pointers against us. The percentages aren't pretty either:

Team | Date | Result | 3-Pt Att | 3-Pt %

uconn | 11/15 | loss | 12-21 | 57.1%

vpi | 1/26 | loss | 14-30 | 46.7%

fsu | 2/5 | loss | 11-22 | 50.0%

uva | 3/4 | loss | 18-25 | 72.0%

pitt | 3/13 | win | 10-23 | 43.5%

baylor | 3/21 | loss | 16-34 | 47.1%

There was also a number of teams that had (9) 3-pointers against us that are not listed above.

3 of those games were this month.

Can you put these numbers in context? Because you state them as if they prove a point but im not sure if this is a good thing or bad.

 

[kingtidge]

Can you put these numbers in context? Because you state them as if they prove a point but im not sure if this is a good thing or bad.

I originally said baylor was one of a number of games this year where we were lit up from 3.

Another poster said it was only 2 games where this happened and I was wrong.

It was 6 games so I posted it to confirm (as did others.)