What if we lose to Liberty?

jgeorge322

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I'm so intimidated. *yawn* You keep dancing around my original point so I'll make it again, very clear for your brain to understand this time. Why does Dino get a pass when Shafer didn't? Shafer had a 4th string QB and a new OC. Dino is getting his arse handed to him with his first sting QB, or was at least until Sat.
I never mentioned shafer. Theres a rationale argument maybe he should have gotten another year. I think thats reasonable and doesnt undermine anything i said. Probably even supports it. So literally have no idea what your point is. Is your point shafer should have been fired? Therefore, dino should be too? Thats not a good argument, because one literally doesnt have anything to do with the other. In fact it supporrs my point because the result of firing shafer, in your view, was another losing coach. Maybe shafer just needed more time then which supports what i was saying. Or is your point shafer shouldnt have been fired because he needs more time, which is legit the same argument i am making. Either way, your analogy is poorly conveyed.

but lets be clear what happened here. I made an argument that id give dino more time. I did so politely to another poster, whom i enjoy and think is a good poster. You engaged me and offered me a list. I respectfully said to make sure it contains good comparisons. You then responded and said i should feel shame without offering said list. I responded in kind. And now you are acting like i attacked you initially. Im sorry, but it shows a lack of intelligence on your part. And i cant help you there other that to recommend reading a book and playing some logic games.
 

Pyle

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I never mentioned shafer. Theres a rationale argument maybe he should have gotten another year. I think thats reasonable and doesnt undermine anything i said. Probably even supports it. So literally have no idea what your point is. Is your point shafer should have been fired? Therefore, dino should be too? Thats not a good argument, because one literally doesnt have anything to do with the other. In fact it supporrs my point because the result of firing shafer, in your view, was another losing coach. Maybe shafer just needed more time then which supports what i was saying. Or is your point shafer shouldnt have been fired because he needs more time, which is legit the same argument i am making. Either way, your analogy is poorly conveyed.

but lets be clear what happened here. I made an argument that id give dino more time. I did so politely to another poster, whom i enjoy and think is a good poster. You engaged me and offered me a list. I respectfully said to make sure it contains good comparisons. You then responded and said i should feel shame without offering said list. I responded in kind. And now you are acting like i attacked you initially. Im sorry, but it shows a lack of intelligence on your part. And i cant help you there other that to recommend reading a book and playing some logic games.
No you're just arrogant. Telling someone they are less intelligent isn't the sign of higher intelligence. You simply make your points and let them do the talking for you. I gave you a short list. Addazio, Narduzzi, Freeze although Freeze may very well be another Dino where he simply wins with other coach's players so I guess time will tell.

Dino WILL get more time, whether he still deserves it after what we're seeing this year is the question and you've made it clear what side you stand on.

Also the criteria for deserving a 4th year vs a 6th - 8th year is quite different.
 
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GoSU96

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Fair or not coaches now get 3 maybe 4 years to show vast improvement in the power 5. Dino is not getting the job done.
What?

Here is where he started from with the offense.

Shafer three year average NCAA ranking.

RO
68.3​
PO
107.0​
TO
105.3​
SO
97.7​
Peff
108.3​

Here is what Babers did from that starting point his first three years.

Ave
2018​
2017​
2016​
RO
73.7​
36​
70​
115​
PO
20.0​
31​
18​
11​
TO
28.0​
19​
23​
42​
SO
58.7​
11​
75​
90​
Peff
76.3​
76​
103​
50​

Shafer won four games in year three after inheriting a team that had gone 25-25 the four years before.

Babers won ten games after inheriting a team that went 14-23 under the prior coach.

I'd say that's vast improvement.

The offense fell off last year because of the OL issues, but was still better than anything Shafer put on the field.

Here's another note.

Under Dino SU has beaten 11 of other 13 ACC teams. They haven't played UVA and lost to Miami on the road the one time they played. That is not the sign of a program that can't compete with the rest of the conference.
 

jgeorge322

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No you're just arrogant. Telling someone they are less intelligent isn't the sign of higher intelligence. You simply make your points and let them do the talking for you. I gave you a short list. Addazio, Narduzzi, Freeze although Freeze may very well be another Dino where he simply wins with other coach's players so I guess time will tell.

Dino WILL get more time, whether he still deserves it after what we're seeing this year is the question and you've made it clear what side you stand on.

Also the criteria for deserving a 4th year vs a 6th - 8th year is quite different.
Your response doesnt put you on the high road buddy. Let me know when you get around to your point about shafer.

addazio, he got canned and came into better situation. Narduzzi, came into a lot better situation then babers had. Freeze? I have no clue wt f you are talking about with him.
 
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JeremyCuse

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I do worry a bit about some of our friends over on the OT board if SU loses to Liberty, to say a group of them aren't exactly fans of the school is the understatement of the century. Gonna be an extra tough Sat for them if SU doesn't come out to play.
 

Cuse69

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LOL his buyout is likely so large that it would be silly to fire him simply because of cost effective stand point.

Our mouths salivated to early after the 10 win season...
I thought we extended way to soon, their werent tons of openings that offseason and not from schools he'd want to take a lateral step to anyways, if an offer can we could have always matched it, a bump in salary is what he should've gotten but hindsight is 20/20, I just didn't see him getting a big offer in that offseason so why do a big extension, I'd imagine his buyout after this season would have to be 12 million minimum, he'll be here at least one more no matter what happens the rest of the way
 

Pyle

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What?

Here is where he started from with the offense.

Shafer three year average NCAA ranking.

RO
68.3​
PO
107.0​
TO
105.3​
SO
97.7​
Peff
108.3​

Here is what Babers did from that starting point his first three years.

Ave
2018​
2017​
2016​
RO
73.7​
36​
70​
115​
PO
20.0​
31​
18​
11​
TO
28.0​
19​
23​
42​
SO
58.7​
11​
75​
90​
Peff
76.3​
76​
103​
50​

Shafer won four games in year three after inheriting a team that had gone 25-25 the four years before.

Babers won ten games after inheriting a team that went 14-23 under the prior coach.

I'd say that's vast improvement.

The offense fell off last year because of the OL issues, but was still better than anything Shafer put on the field.

Here's another note.

Under Dino SU has beaten 11 of other 13 ACC teams. They haven't played UVA and lost to Miami on the road the one time they played. That is not the sign of a program that can't compete with the rest of the conference.
This looks like a very good argument on the surface, and I'm not necessarily saying it's not valid but it fails to address a couple of things. What are those numbers for 2019 and so far into 2020? And it doesn't address the fact that Shafer's recruits were a large part of that 2018 success. Since then what is the trajectory?
 

orangecuse

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Then as a coach your motto and what you're selling to the fanbase probably shouldn't be 'consistently good, not occasionally great'
Or the "closes your eyes"..."belief without evidence"...etc., BS. Additionally, he told us how his O system will be really clicking on all cylinders by game 4, year 3. Well, we just played game 4 in YEAR 5 and our cylinders all have severely warped pistons. Dino's great with words and all, and quoting movie lines as he did again today in his presser, but for this diehard fan he needs to start winning more games than he loses for me to believe any longer. Then, and only only then will I give any credence to what he spews.
 

Cuse69

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This looks like a very good argument on the surface, and I'm not necessarily saying it's not valid but it fails to address a couple of things. What are those numbers for 2019 and so far into 2020? And it doesn't address the fact that Shafer's recruits were a large part of that 2018 success. Since then what is the trajectory?
I was in the small group who thought shafer should have been given another year, for whatever reason he rubbed a lot of you guys the wrong way but I liked him, defense was solid, in his last year we were more exciting and competitive than we are now, he dealt with just as many injuries and scott shafer & co somehow had better qb depth than mr offense dino babers does know, with that being said babers no matter what isn't being fired, last year was awful yet we had plenty of momentum before corona hit and if it's a normal year I assume the crowds are about normal, the local media will be running with the excuses and dino will be back next year. Your point earlier their are alot of coaches who have turned around average schools into bowl teams 6-8 wins a year, no reason we arent just making consistent bowl games, wasn't the whole point of dino to do that while having an exciting offense and team, unfortunately if we still had mark coyle I'd be excited to see who he would hire but if dino goes I have zero faith in wildhack & syracuse to hire anyone even remotely competent.
 

JKinPhilly

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If we lose - I probably won't know about it until Sunday. I'll be camping down in Southern Utah. I didn't bother to go back and watch the last 3 quarters this last weekend, and I won't bother to record this weekend's game. This is a lost season - just too any obstacles to overcome. It happens - just ask LSU.

As far as the future - I'm not ready to give up on Dino. Mostly because I don't think we can afford to blow it up and start over yet again without severe long-term ramifications. The program is dangling by a thread, and I don't think we want to snip it and hope there's a net waiting for us in a better coach willing to step into the mess.
 

Pyle

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I was in the small group who thought shafer should have been given another year, for whatever reason he rubbed a lot of you guys the wrong way but I liked him, defense was solid, in his last year we were more exciting and competitive than we are now, he dealt with just as many injuries and scott shafer & co somehow had better qb depth than mr offense dino babers does know, with that being said babers no matter what isn't being fired, last year was awful yet we had plenty of momentum before corona hit and if it's a normal year I assume the crowds are about normal, the local media will be running with the excuses and dino will be back next year. Your point earlier their are alot of coaches who have turned around average schools into bowl teams 6-8 wins a year, no reason we arent just making consistent bowl games, wasn't the whole point of dino to do that while having an exciting offense and team, unfortunately if we still had mark coyle I'd be excited to see who he would hire but if dino goes I have zero faith in wildhack & syracuse to hire anyone even remotely competent.
I was in that group a well, thought he was dealt a bad hand and thought Lester's offense with Dungey had some promise. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of some who want to give Dino 8 years but were ready to can Shafer after 3 when he was down to a 4th string QB.
 

GreekFreak

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Im not saying we can go 1-11 for 8 years and get a pass, but ppl are nuts if they think were going to be consistently good with the roster. It takes a lot of time.
Takes a lot of time? Liberty has been playing FBS football for like three years and they are favored over SU on the road. This is a unique year without question, but we should never be underdogs at home to a non-P5 team that has been playing FBS football for three years. As was said during GRob's tenure, we should never lose to Akron...well we should never lose to Liberty and hopefully we won't.
 

jgeorge322

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Takes a lot of time? Liberty has been playing FBS football for like three years and they are favored over SU on the road. This is a unique year without question, but we should never be underdogs at home to a non-P5 team that has been playing FBS football for three years. As was said during GRob's tenure, we should never lose to Akron...well we should never lose to Liberty and hopefully we won't.
this is fair pt but lets see who wins. And we are decimated by injuries.
 

Pyle

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Your response doesnt put you on the high road buddy. Let me know when you get around to your point about shafer.

addazio, he got canned and came into better situation. Narduzzi, came into a lot better situation then babers had. Freeze? I have no clue wt f you are talking about with him.
My apologies for not directly addressing the Shafer thing after you cleared it up, we both think he probably deserved another year so there was a disconnect there however that doesn't mean it should take Dino 8 years. Addazio had 1 losing season, so what if he got fired? Narduzzi took over a program that had 3 different head coaches in the 5 years preceding him so I don't know if that's 'a lot better'. Liberty has been playing D1 FBS football for less time than Dino has been our HC and they are favored in our house but you don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
 

jgeorge322

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My apologies for not directly addressing the Shafer thing after you cleared it up, we both think he probably deserved another year so there was a disconnect there however that doesn't mean it should take Dino 8 years. Addazio had 1 losing season, so what if he got fired? Narduzzi took over a program that had 3 different head coaches in the 5 years preceding him so I don't know if that's 'a lot better'. Liberty has been playing D1 FBS football for less time than Dino has been our HC and they are favored in our house but you don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
the 10 years before addazio took over the program, bc's record was 86-55. the 5 years prior to him taking over, bc was 30-29.

the 10 years before dino took over, syracuse was 49-85. the five years prior, 32-35.

didnt all those pitt coaches leave on their own accord and not get fired? like wasnt one a head coach for only a day or something? also, didnt addazio take over for jags who left for a pro job. he wasn't forced out. very different situations in my book.

honestly though, its not about them. I just think dino is the guy and i rather give him time then do what every other failing d1 program does over and over again.
 
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nzm136

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I am not in the boat of firing him this season or even after this season, but I'm also not willing to wait until year 9. That seems to be a bit too generous.
Agreed. This year is a COVID unpredictability season. Next year is a “go bowling or go home“ season. Then he needs to maintain performance from there on out.

But I’m not quite as down on Dino as many on here are (I wasn’t as high on him as many, either). I still think that he’s has a good shot to pull it out.
 

Steelerswan

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Agreed, it especially doesn't hold up when the same people making excuses were the ones 15 months ago predicting we were going to the orange bowl.
Those were the same people not realizing ED was graduating along with any wr and OL talent we had. We had no idea what was ready to step in bc we were all bought in and believing in the system. Hey, plug and play and if SS recruits did this well, then, geeez, what are dinos recruits gonna do!??? THAT was the dangerous and experience that most all other programs experience. I had a bit of confidence, but in no way thought we would be what ED and those players were. disturbingly, many blew off what they did and what they meant and that resulted on all the whining and angst last year.
 

Pyle

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the 10 years before addazio took over the program, bc's record was 86-55. the 5 years prior to him taking over, bc was 30-29.

the 10 years before dino took over, syracuse was 49-85. the five years prior, 32-35.

didnt all those pitt coaches leave on their own accord and not get fired? like wasnt one a head coach for only a day or something? also, didnt addazio take over for jags who left for a pro job. he wasn't forced out. very different situations in my book.

honestly though, its not about them. I just think dino is the guy and i rather give him time then do what every other failing d1 program does over and over again.
Agreed. This year is a COVID unpredictability season. Next year is a “go bowling or go home“ season. Then he needs to maintain performance from there on out.

But I’m not quite as down on Dino as many on here are (I wasn’t as high on him as many, either). I still think that he’s has a good shot to pull it out.
Here's what worries me about Dino and until he shows different results I'm not sure it will go away. BG has been a mess since he left. Hasn't seen .500 since he left. He won with other coach's players. The next coach in line won 6 or 7 games in the two years combined after Dino left and they still haven't recovered. BG was already pretty good when he got there. They have been a disaster ever since. He didn't elevate or sustain the level of recuriting they already had, and so far it doesn't look so good here either.
 

nzm136

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My apologies for not directly addressing the Shafer thing after you cleared it up, we both think he probably deserved another year so there was a disconnect there however that doesn't mean it should take Dino 8 years. Addazio had 1 losing season, so what if he got fired? Narduzzi took over a program that had 3 different head coaches in the 5 years preceding him so I don't know if that's 'a lot better'. Liberty has been playing D1 FBS football for less time than Dino has been our HC and they are favored in our house but you don't know what the heck I'm talking about?
SS - Agreed on the time thing. He never really had a shot. The guy was a brilliant football mind. His days as a DC proved a nuanced understanding of the game, and he did bring in some good talent. Sure, he was far from perfect on the recruiting front, especially with some big bets, but he’s responsible for many of our best players since P, and he wasn’t working with great facilities.

he also didn’t have many people around him who could carry their weight.

IMHO, a huge difference between SEC schools and the rest of college football is assistant coaches. High quality assistant coaches are the difference between going to the next level or not. Look at how big coaching/consulting/advisory/specialist staffs are at big schools (see Clemson), and look at how many position coaches from SU’s glory days went on to do great things. Eddie O, Saban, Coughlin, and Sweater Vest all served time in the 315. SS wasn’t given budget or time to hire a great staff. (SS was hired late in the cycle with a limited budget, and DM took his staff, so SS had to reach back to his MAC days and hire his friends. He then went bowling in year 1, so he couldn’t let them go until the end of year 2, when patience was wearing thin, so he had to hire replacements and implement changes while on the hot seat.)

It would have been interesting to see what he could have done if he wasn’t relying on MAC-level assistants to help him. IMHO Lester was turning the offense around (he’s a 3rd year head coach at WMU now with a winning record), and SS was clearly capable of fielding a good defensive team and understanding defenses. Could SS have combined the pieces if given a real opportunity? Maybe, maybe not, but there’s a chance that he could have, and he was as loyal to SU as the day was long. He was let go too early.
 

nzm136

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Here's what worries me about Dino and until he shows different results I'm not sure it will go away. BG has been a mess since he left. Hasn't seen .500 since he left. He won with other coach's players. The next coach in line won 6 or 7 games in the two years combined after Dino left and they still haven't recovered. BG was already pretty good when he got there. They have been a disaster ever since. He didn't elevate or sustain the level of recuriting they already had, and so far it doesn't look so good here either.
I can’t argue with that, but I don’t think it’s right to fire a guy this year. There’s too much noise to say for sure what it would have been. Some practice time and 2-3 players can be the difference between a complete dumpster fire offense and a mediocre one.

I’m willing to believe our special teams and defense + a mediocre offense would do pretty well.

I think next year will be telling. There are no more excuses at that point. We will either be good enough to believe with evidence, or we will be BG. BUT, we will have an improved Dome, a demonstrated willingness to pay a coach, and a proved willingness to give a coach plenty of time to fly. Those factors will make hiring the next guy significantly easier, especially if this recruiting class finishes well.
 

721Comstock

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SS - Agreed on the time thing. He never really had a shot. The guy was a brilliant football mind. His days as a DC proved a nuanced understanding of the game, and he did bring in some good talent. Sure, he was far from perfect on the recruiting front, especially with some big bets, but he’s responsible for many of our best players since P, and he wasn’t working with great facilities.

he also didn’t have many people around him who could carry their weight.

IMHO, a huge difference between SEC schools and the rest of college football is assistant coaches. High quality assistant coaches are the difference between going to the next level or not. Look at how big coaching/consulting/advisory/specialist staffs are at big schools (see Clemson), and look at how many position coaches from SU’s glory days went on to do great things. Eddie O, Saban, Coughlin, and Sweater Vest all served time in the 315. SS wasn’t given budget or time to hire a great staff. (SS was hired late in the cycle with a limited budget, and DM took his staff, so SS had to reach back to his MAC days and hire his friends. He then went bowling in year 1, so he couldn’t let them go until the end of year 2, when patience was wearing thin, so he had to hire replacements and implement changes while on the hot seat.)

It would have been interesting to see what he could have done if he wasn’t relying on MAC-level assistants to help him. IMHO Lester was turning the offense around (he’s a 3rd year head coach at WMU now with a winning record), and SS was clearly capable of fielding a good defensive team and understanding defenses. Could SS have combined the pieces if given a real opportunity? Maybe, maybe not, but there’s a chance that he could have, and he was as loyal to SU as the day was long. He was let go too early.
Nope.

FHCSMFS was (and likely still is) a really nice guy, and solid DC. So stipulated

He was a turrible HC - exactly because he “got the band back together” and hired all his Directional school coaching buddies.

Also - his crootin was bad, and getting worse.

Lastly - he didn’t have a single notable upset win. In 3 seasons.
Even GERG managed to beat ND.

Dino’s had the VaTech & Clemson upsets, and a 10 win season.

He also cleaned house after last year - and doing so, now has the highest rated class teed up in nearly TWO DECADES.

Shafer was fired at exactly the right time.
As a “continuity hire” he not only failed to maintain what St Doug had achieved, we were backsliding rapidly at the end of his tenure.

Which is why it was ended.
 

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