What we are missing

[jec1521]

We have no bench. This is obvious. All we need is 1 guy that can spark us 5 minutes into the game, whether its by scoring, or rebounding, hustling, etc.

So this leads me to the million dollar question. Why do we have bench?
Its the same old stuff every season. Hot start, don't develop any bench and go into the tournaments limping. Its no coincidence. This has been the biggest gripe that I have with JB

Our guys are tired. Go watch the replay. with 10 minutes to go, CJ was hanging onto his own shorts gasping for air.

And before anyone says JB sees these guys in practice... JB isn't always right. He has said himself early in the season that he didn't think Ennis would be as good as he is. And yes, this is after seeing him practice.

I understand that the bench is like the 2nd string quarterback, and I am not saying Roberson or bj would even help us at this point. But these bench players should be developed as the season goes on, if for nothing else other than to give our starters some breather minutes. No bench was developed. Coleman got hurt. And now were completely stuck.

Very frustrating to watch this over and over.

 

[samspann1]

we're missing:

- bench productivity/depth
- low post offense
- a 2nd legitimate outside shooting threat
- a guard/SF who can consistently beat their man off of the dribble

 

[iommi]

Great post. We have four star recruits who can't get any minutes. You will probably be criticized but it's a good post. We are running on fumes for a reason.

 

[Ghost]

We're missing a back-up center that doesn't start a fast break for the other team 84% of the time he touches the ball - 12% of the time he's bobbling the ball out of bounds. The other 4% something positive may happen, or at least something not negative.

I pray for the bobble out of bounds most times because at least it doesn't end in a fast break.

 

[iommi]

We're missing a back-up center that doesn't start a fast break for the other team 84% of the time he touches the ball - 12% of the time he's bobbling the ball out of bounds. The other 4% something positive may happen, or at least something not negative.

I pray for the bobble out of bounds most times because at least it doesn't end in a fast break.

Sad but true...honest question: I know Chino is green as grass but does anyone know if he can catch? With Roc's inability to avoid fouls, Chino may be pressed into more minutes than we think, especially if DC is not ready to go.

 

[doc05]

For the love of all things holy - can this team get a big man coach? It's baffling to see the progression, or lack thereof, of these McD centers and a senior who played at Oakhill.

 

[iommi]

For the love of all things holy - can this team get a big man coach? It's baffling to see the progression, or lack thereof, of these McD centers and a senior who played at Oakhill.

I've been screaming for that for years, only to get shot down by the geniuses of the board. It doesn't have to be an SU alum, just someone who played the position and can DEVELOP our bigs so they each have a few moves down low. It's maddening.

 

[RF2044]

Great post. We have four star recruits who can't get any minutes. You will probably be criticized but it's a good post. We are running on fumes for a reason.

No, its not a great post. We've seen JB employ a deeper bench--with plenty of bench scoring--in each of the four preceding seasons to this one. The difference? We had guys who were capable and with the right experience level to contribute on the bench.

You can't get blood from a stone. And pretending that we have depth doesn't = having depth. All of the board geniuses calling for Roberson saw what happened when he played extended minutes against GT.

Wishing doesn't make it so.

 

[newmexicuse]

we're missing:

- bench productivity/depth
- low post offense
- a FIRST legitimate outside shooting threat
- a guard/SF who can consistently beat their man off of the dribble

Minor correction to an otherwise good post.

 

[iommi]

No, its not a great post. We've seen JB employ a deeper bench--with plenty of bench scoring--in each of the four preceding seasons to this one.

You can't get blood from a stone. And pretending that we have depth doesn't = having depth. All of the board geniuses calling for Roberson saw what happened when he played extended minutes against GT.

Wishing doesn't make it so.

Sorry, Ryan, but Roberson and his bench warming buddies were never given a fair shot. Throwing Roberson to the wolves in that GT game doesn't count, He wasn't ready because we didn't get him ready. I saw Roberson play in person last year. He's capable of great things...his skills didn't disappear.

 

[Opus]

We have no bench. This is obvious. All we need is 1 guy that can spark us 5 minutes into the game, whether its by scoring, or rebounding, hustling, etc.

So this leads me to the million dollar question. Why do we have bench?
Its the same old stuff every season. Hot start, don't develop any bench and go into the tournaments limping. Its no coincidence. This has been the biggest gripe that I have with JB

Our guys are tired. Go watch the replay. with 10 minutes to go, CJ was hanging onto his own shorts gasping for air.

And before anyone says JB sees these guys in practice... JB isn't always right. He has said himself early in the season that he didn't think Ennis would be as good as he is. And yes, this is after seeing him practice.

I understand that the bench is like the 2nd string quarterback, and I am not saying Roberson or bj would even help us at this point. But these bench players should be developed as the season goes on, if for nothing else other than to give our starters some breather minutes. No bench was developed. Coleman got hurt. And now were completely stuck.

Very frustrating to watch this over and over.

OK thanks. I agree. But he is a HOF coach! #sarcasm

 

[Ghost]

No, its not a great post. We've seen JB employ a deeper bench--with plenty of bench scoring--in each of the four preceding seasons to this one.

You can't get blood from a stone. And pretending that we have depth doesn't = having depth. All of the board geniuses calling for Roberson saw what happened when he played extended minutes against GT.

Wishing doesn't make it so.

I think people drawing this conclusion on Roberson based off one game with extended minutes is probably just as off-target as the people that think he's capable of extended run. I think he was below average, but not nearly as awful as some imply he was that game. That was a lot of pressure coming off some losses, and all of a sudden knowing you're replacing JG's production. Not quite the same as getting a 5 minute run here or there. All things considered, I do think he was okay.

Now, considering our bench I'm not sure that I saw anything from him that shows he's less ready to play than G or Baye. At least he can rebound a bit, and seems to have some talent on offense. I think he could have been a useful cog if he played a tad more consistently early. JB was more than ready to bury JG last year, till circumstances forced him into the rotation.

By no means do I think he would have been a HUGE game changer, but a high-energy guy that occasionally puts the ball in the basket - yeah, I could have seen that developing.

 

[newmexicuse]

No, its not a great post. We've seen JB employ a deeper bench--with plenty of bench scoring--in each of the four preceding seasons to this one. The difference? We had guys who were capable and with the right experience level to contribute on the bench.

You can't get blood from a stone. And pretending that we have depth doesn't = having depth. All of the board geniuses calling for Roberson saw what happened when he played extended minutes against GT.

Wishing doesn't make it so.

Your comment on Roberson is ridiculous. He had not been developed all season long. Had he gotten 5 to 8 MPG every game he would have stepped up and played fine. Same may well have been true for Buss.

As for not playing guys, a developed Buss or BJ could hardly be worse than what is left of Trevor.

You don't get it - there is no downside to developing a bench other than maybe a couple of more early season losses - who CARES !!! I want the team uptrending in March.

 

[Ghost]

Sad but true...honest question: I know Chino is green as grass but does anyone know if he can catch? With Roc's inability to avoid fouls, Chino may be pressed into more minutes than we think, especially if DC is not ready to go.

I remember hearing reports he could rebound well - but not much else.

I just can't watch Baye any more. My stomach turns every time the ball touches his hands. Love the guy to death, but he's killing us.

 

[RF2044]

Sorry, Ryan, but Roberson and his bench warming buddies were never given a fair shot. Throwing Roberson to the wolves in that GT game doesn't count, He wasn't ready because we didn't get him ready. I saw Roberson play in person last year. He's capable of great things...his skills didn't disappear.

"Fair?"

JB went 9 deep in the four preceding years before this one. Why did we suddenly go 7? Was it because JB was opposed to giving the players a "fair" shot, or because they weren't ready?

Please note that I think Roberson's long term potential is high, and I believe if he stays he's going to be a good player for us. But he isn't ready now. He got off to a late start, and never caught up. Maybe it would have been different if he'd been cleared earlier to play in Canada--but that didn't happen. But again, wishing doesn't make it so. He wasn't ready. Had he been, he would have played.

 

[iommi]

"Fair?"

JB went 9 deep in the four preceding years before this one. Why did we suddenly go 7? Was it because JB was opposed to giving the players a "fair" shot, or because they weren't ready?

Please note that I think Roberson's long term potential is high, and I believe if he stays he's going to be a good player for us. But he isn't ready now. He got off to a late start, and never caught up. Maybe it would have been different if he'd been cleared earlier to play in Canada--but that didn't happen. But again, wishing doesn't make it so. He wasn't ready. Had he been, he would have played.

I disagree. I get your point but if Roberson was spoon fed minutes in Maui and the other pre-conference games, maybe he would've caught up? We'll agree to disagree.

 

[doc05]

Sorry, Ryan, but Roberson and his bench warming buddies were never given a fair shot. Throwing Roberson to the wolves in that GT game doesn't count, He wasn't ready because we didn't get him ready. I saw Roberson play in person last year. He's capable of great things...his skills didn't disappear.

This was a big recruiting year - 4 players came in, 1 redshirted. The guys that were brought in were not brought in to twiddle their thumbs on the bench all year and basically be practice squad players. You can have other walk ons etc do that. Before the season most here felt at least 2 and possibly three would get SOME run. Roberson was a very highly recruited forward. Now this great recruiting class is just full of projects that just can't contribute at all? What other elite program is going to basically have 75-80% of their vaunted recruiting class get NO RUN WHATSOEVER? I'm sorry - this is a problem, especially on a team with no depth.

 

[RF2044]

Your comment on Roberson is ridiculous. He had not been developed all season long. Had he gotten 5 to 8 MPG every game he would have stepped up and played fine. Same may well have been true for Buss.

As for not playing guys, a developed Buss or BJ could hardly be worse than what is left of Trevor.

You don't get it - there is no downside to developing a bench other than maybe a couple of more early season losses - who CARES !!! I want the team uptrending in March.

Your perspective on Roberson is ridiculous--as is the fanciful perspective that you can just throw players out there and they'll perform at a high level. If BJ or Buss were ready, they'd be playing. They're not, therefore they aren't.

The Roberson example is instructive not because it is an indictment of his long term potential, but because it is a rare example of what happens when you play someone who isn't ready to contribute--and what happens when someone who isn't ready is forced into a contrbuting role.

I don't get it--whatever. I'm not the one clamoring for Buss or BJ 30 games into the season. Those are desperation moves. And if those guys played--had they played tonight--we would have lost by 20 instead of 3.

It would have been great to have more of a bench, just like the luxury we enjoyed the previous four years. But the prepondernece of bench players were freshman. And unfortunately, that isn't a great recipe for having a high performing group of reserves.

 

[BludOrange]

For the love of all things holy - can this team get a big man coach? It's baffling to see the progression, or lack thereof, of these McD centers and a senior who played at Oakhill.

Sorry, but the coaches have no control of how soft BMK's hands are. Christmas has made strides. The kid did not have any offensive game when he arrived on campus. He can't force JB to call plays for him or make Ennis pass him the ball.

 

[Jasoncuse]

For the love of all things holy - can this team get a big man coach? It's baffling to see the progression, or lack thereof, of these McD centers and a senior who played at Oakhill.

Well I don't think a big man coach is improving Keita's hands. The guy just can't catch or hang on to the ball. Maybe he should have worked with a football jugs machine over his career, but I'm not sure how much his game would have improved with a dedicate big coach.

 

[iommi]

This was a big recruiting year - 4 players came in, 1 redshirted. The guys that were brought in were not brought in to twiddle their thumbs on the bench all year and basically be practice squad players. You can have other walk ons etc do that. Before the season most here felt at least 2 and possibly three would get SOME run. Roberson was a very highly recruited forward. Now this great recruiting class is just full of projects that just can't contribute at all? What other elite program is going to basically have 75-80% of their vaunted recruiting class get NO RUN WHATSOEVER? I'm sorry - this is a problem, especially on a team with no depth.

100% correct. I have to think this hurts team chemistry too...these guys can't be happy, star high school players rotting on the bench as our guys' arses drag and Cooney continues to struggle...and unhappiness can really fester and lead to very bad things in a team environment.

The argument that JB would play them if they are ready does not hold water, as even JB's most ardent supporters would admit he's stubborn about whom he thinks is ready to play for him in year one,

 

[iommi]

A big man coach couldn't help BMK's hands but maybe he could've helped him learn how to attach the basket, play defense without fouling...as well as finishing at and around the rim...and by him...I mean, BMK, Roc, DC...

 

[doc05]

Well I don't think a big man coach is improving Keita's hands. The guy just can't catch or hang on to the ball. Maybe he should have worked with a football jugs machine over his career, but I'm not sure how much his game would have improved with a dedicate big coach.

Keita was the throw in, as this was more directed to Coleman and XMas. But Keita has shown NO improvement on any aspect of his game in 4 years...maybe free throw shooting at times.

 

[RF2044]

100% correct. I have to think this hurts team chemistry too...these guys can't be happy, star high school players rotting on the bench as our guys' arses drag and Cooney continues to struggle...and unhappiness can really fester and lead to very bad things in a team environment.

The argument that JB would play them if they are ready does not hold water, as even JB's most ardent supporters would admit he's stubborn about whom he thinks is ready to play for him in year one,

Honest question--are you at practice? Do you know what any of these kids are capable of other than truism BS?

Iommi, you know we are friends, and I'm not calling you out. But I think its crap to suggest that JB or anyone on this coaching staff is sandbagging players woh can contribute. They have played many freshmen over the years in prominent roles. I'm a fan of Roberson, Buss, and BJ, and think that all of them could be very good players in our system down the road.

But I also think that it is faulty logic to think that these guys are performing at a high level and could parlay that into on-court productivity... if only it weren't for big bad JB holding them back.

We suck offensively, and players like Buss / BJ are reputed to be shooters. Do you really think JB wouldn't play them if they were capable of contributing now? Is that honestly what you [or anyone else] is insinuating?

 

[Coach Orange]

we're missing:

- bench productivity/depth
- low post offense
- a 2nd legitimate outside shooting threat
- a guard/SF who can consistently beat their man off of the dribble

So…pretty much a majority of the items that make for a strong offense?

Can I add to this list off-the-ball player movement and ball movement?

Our players endlessly stand around on the offensive end, watching isolation after isolation as if we have Kobe, LeBron, or Melo on our squad. The team never runs back screens or flare screens, and it only occasionally utilizes stagger screens (only in our Double Fist play). Likewise, the kids rarely swing the ball side-top-side more than once in a possession.

Our lack of using these fundamental movements lets defenses off the hook. Their players never have to chase our kids through a variety of screens (and this includes when we set up ball screens), nor do they have to help and recover quickly, which is one of the hardest things to do as a defender.