What we are missing

[newmexicuse]

Your perspective on Roberson is ridiculous--as is the fanciful perspective that you can just throw players out there and they'll contribute. If BJ or Buss were ready, they'd be playing. They're not, therefore they aren't.

The Roberson example is instructive not because it is an indictment of his long term potential, but because it is a rare example of what happens when you play someone who isn't ready to contribute--and what happens when someone who isn't ready is forced into a contrbuting role.

I don't get it--whatever. I'm not the one clamoring for Buss or BJ 30 games into the season. Those are desperation moves. And if those guys played--had they played tonight--we would have lost by 20 instead of 3.

It would have been great to have more of a bench, just like the luxury we enjoyed the previous four years. But the prepondernece of bench players were freshman. And unfortunately, that isn't a great recipe for having a high performing group of reserves.

I have not clamored for anybody 30 games into the season. I have clamored all season long.

The reserves do not have to provide high performance. They only have to provide energy and to hold the fort while starters rest.

And, yes, regretfully this team IS at a point where it needs desperation moves.

 

[jec1521]

"Fair?"

JB went 9 deep in the four preceding years before this one. Why did we suddenly go 7? Was it because JB was opposed to giving the players a "fair" shot, or because they weren't ready?

Please note that I think Roberson's long term potential is high, and I believe if he stays he's going to be a good player for us. But he isn't ready now. He got off to a late start, and never caught up. Maybe it would have been different if he'd been cleared earlier to play in Canada--but that didn't happen. But again, wishing doesn't make it so. He wasn't ready. Had he been, he would have played.

9 deep the 4 years before this one? Really? Does this include the token starts of fab and dc2? And does it also include jb being forced to play grant last year because of southerlands eligibility issues? I believe we were all saying pretty similar stuff on here about grant not getting enough pt last year.

JB plays 7.5 at the most. Just the way it is. Gives great early records. But by the end if the year, most of the time the team is shot. Especially when there is an injury.

 

[RF2044]

So…pretty much a majority of the items that make for a strong offense?

Can I add to this list off-the-ball player movement and ball movement?

Our players endlessly stand around on the offensive end, watching isolation after isolation as if we have Kobe, LeBron, or Melo on our squad. The team never runs back screens or flare screens, and it only occasionally utilizes stagger screens (only in our Double Fist play). Likewise, the kids rarely swing the ball side-top-side more than once in a possession.

Our lack of using these fundamental movements lets defenses off the hook. Their players never have to chase our kids through a variety of screens (and this includes when we set up ball screens), nor do they have to help and recover quickly, which is one of the hardest things to do as a defender.

Agreed. The execution of our half-court offensive sets is for crap. And that results in too much standing around watching the ball, and consequently too much one-on-one late in shot clock situations. And unfortunately, our top players aren't at their best having to create one-on-one [perhaps save for Ennis].

Better team execution helps us avoid having our offense devolve into such ineffectual lapses. Even so, if we hit an extra shot or two tonight, we win.

Frustrating.

 

[BludOrange]

Benching Cooney for Buss or BJ this late in the season would only send the message that JB has lost faith in him and could easily do so again next year. Cooney does not need his coaching staff doubting him.

 

[Coach Orange]

Better team execution helps us avoid having our offense devolve into such ineffectual lapses. Even so, if we hit an extra shot or two tonight, we win.

Frustrating.

It sure is. The panic we showed in the last possession is also frustrating. You would think that a team that has played so many close games this year would know how to handle the moment better.

 

[iommi]

Obviously I do agree with the old adage of how you practice is how you play in a game...but again, we will never know how these guys could've helped us because they were not given consistent playing time in games.

I don't think it's sandbagging, I think it's JB being stubborn. And I do cover recruiting very closely. I saw tons of tape on Buss and BJ and as I said, saw Roberson several times in person (like I've watched guys like Tyus Battle and Moustapha Diagne this year). Roberson looked like shell of the player he was last year when he took his team to the NJ Tournament of Champions win. Maybe a quick hook hurt his confidence. The kid is an introvert.

With our backcourt, the second JB decided to make G our backup point, he should've been grooming Buss and/ or BJ to get backup minutes at the 2. Maybe then he wouldn't have to ride TC's shooting woes into the ground.

Again, not trying to get into it with you either, but you keep engaging me.

EDIT: and RF, we both know that wasn't an "honest question." I am obviously not at practice and we both know that.

 

[doc05]

100% correct. I have to think this hurts team chemistry too...these guys can't be happy, star high school players rotting on the bench as our guys' arses drag and Cooney continues to struggle...and unhappiness can really fester and lead to very bad things in a team environment.

The argument that JB would play them if they are ready does not hold water, as even JB's most ardent supporters would admit he's stubborn about whom he thinks is ready to play for him in year one,

Exactly. Unfortunately people just don't like questioning JB, yet we all know he plays favorites..he's done it for years. At times it can hurt any team. I'm not in the locker room, but I can see what is unfolding. Cooney for example is trotted out there for 30+ minute a game hoisting brick after brick, continuously losing people at the top of the zone - and yet he is just run into the ground no mater what. Yet there are scholarship players who could have went to other schools just sitting on the bench looking on as spectators, not being able to contribute at all to their own team (this is a "team" sport) - and frankly not even being given a chance to help. It may not be a popular opinion, but it doesn't sit right with me as a fan.

 

[orangefan13]

This is one of those years where
1.nobody stepped up midseason to get better.
2.going into march we didn't put it together to get better but to got worse.
3. We lost what could have been a key player(Dajuan)

That being said Fair was hit miss today he is capable of taking over for 6 games but that could be wishfull thinking. Cooney has slid the second half of the season. One Strong point since the return of Grant our transition has been alot better.

 

[RF2044]

9 deep the 4 years before this one? Really? Does this include the token starts of fab and dc2? And does it also include jb being forced to play grant last year because of southerlands eligibility issues? I believe we were all saying pretty similar stuff on here about grant not getting enough pt last year.

JB plays 7.5 at the most. Just the way it is. Gives great early records. But by the end if the year, most of the time the team is shot. Especially when there is an injury.

2010: Triche, Rautins, Wes, Rick, AO, Scoop, Joseph. You are right--we only played 7.
2011: Scoop, Triche, Kris, Rick, Fab, CJ, Dion, BMK, Southerland. 9 players.
2012: Scoop, Triche, Kris, Rak, Fab, CJ, Dion, BMK, Southerland. 9 players, all of whom played big minutes. Rak was token starter.
2013: MCW, Triche, CJ, Rak, Coleman, Southerland, Cooney, Grant. 8 players. Coleman, token starter.

Okay, so it hasn't been 9 every year those four years. But it wasn't 7.5 either.

 

[longislandcuse]

Benching Cooney for Buss or BJ this late in the season would only send the message that JB has lost faith in him and could easily do so again next year. Cooney does not need his coaching staff doubting him.

Bc all this confidence they have in him is doing wonders.

 

[RF2044]

I have not clamored for anybody 30 games into the season. I have clamored all season long.

The reserves do not have to provide high performance. They only have to provide energy and to hold the fort while starters rest.

And, yes, regretfully this team IS at a point where it needs desperation moves.

And that is why you are an over-reactionary fan instead of a coach.

Desperation moves rarely pan out. And sorry--30+ games into a season with a 27-5 team is not the point where you start making all sorts of wholesale changes or experimenting, throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks. Oh Lord

 

[iommi]

I

And that is why you are an over-reactionary fan instead of a coach.

Desperation moves rarely pan out. And sorry--30 games into a season with a 27-5 team is not the point where you start making all sorts of wholesale changes, throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks. Oh Lord

He's not wanting to change anything NOW. He wanted JB to develop his bench in the pre-conference schedule.

 

[BludOrange]

Bc all this confidence they have in him is doing wonders.

You're correct, benching him for someone who has not played in 30 games will help him raise his fg%

 

[Opus]

This is one of those years where
1.nobody stepped up midseason to get better.
2.going into march we didn't put it together to get better but to got worse.
3. We lost what could have been a key player(Dajuan)

That being said Fair was hit miss today he is capable of taking over for 6 games but that could be wishfull thinking. Cooney has slid the second half of the season. One Strong point since the return of Grant our transition has been alot better.

This is in reply to your third bullet point (bolded) . Really? I ain't attacking you, just wish I had your blind faith.

 

[newmexicuse]

And that is why you are an over-reactionary fan instead of a coach.

Desperation moves rarely pan out. And sorry--30+ games into a season with a 27-5 team is not the point where you start making all sorts of wholesale changes or experimenting, throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks. Oh Lord

I think playing Trevor 30+ minutes a night and playing CJ and Jerami all 40 minutes a night is "throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks."

Can you honestly say giving CJ a five minute breather the way he was playing tonight could have hurt ???

 

[RF2044]

I


He's not wanting to change anything NOW. He wanted JB to develop his bench in the pre-conference schedule.

And why don't you think that happened? Because JB didn't want to have bench depth / shooters / great players in reserve?

Or because those players weren't ready to contribute?

Which do you think is more likely--even given JB's propensity to not have huge rotations?

 

[longislandcuse]

You're correct, benching him for someone who has not played in 30 games will help him raise his fg%

I agree we need to keep playing him (this year) but I'm all for someone taking his spot if they step up over the summer.

 

[RF2044]

I think playing Trevor 30+ minutes a night and playing CJ and Jerami all 40 minutes a night is throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks.

Can you honestly say giving CJ a five minute breather the way he was playing tonight could have hurt ???

Tonight, he stunk. And there isn't a bigger CJ supporter on this forum than me. But for the majority of the year, he produced at the level of a second team all-american.

And if you don't have anyone to put in for him who is ready to contribute, then you roll with what got you there.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Benching Cooney for Buss or BJ this late in the season would only send the message that JB has lost faith in him and could easily do so again next year. Cooney does not need his coaching staff doubting him.

I don't disagree, but some could say he should bench Cooney from time to time in order to send the message that he needs to start knocking down shots (obvious). Or that he needs to find other ways to contribute. Right now, Cooney adds very little and maybe it's time JB did something about it. It won't happen, but it's worth thinking about.

 

[BuffOrange]

He's not wanting to change anything NOW. He wanted JB to develop his bench in the pre-conference schedule.

I love how this was perfectly clear in the OP yet gets tossed aside in favor of straw-man stuff.
It'd be a lot easier to assume JB's always right on these matters if not for Dion & MCW. All the sudden Waiters is the best player on the floor by a mile vs Marquette, What.

In before "YA CAUSE BJ WOULD BE OUR BEST PLAYER GENIUS".
No I'm not saying that, but the nothing that Roberson can give us can't be much worse than a wash to Cooney's nothing.

 

[iommi]

And why don't you think that happened? Because JB didn't want to have bench depth / shooters / great players in reserve?

Or because those players weren't ready to contribute?

Which do you think is more likely--even given JB's propensity to not have huge rotations?

I don't know but I do know these guys on the bench can play...I think a lot of had to do with JB knowing how good CJ and Grant were going to be and not being able to justify them sitting for Roberson, especially after he missed Canada and the practices for Canada...as for our backcourt, he probably saw how electric Cooney was shooting the ball n practice and figured we'd be fine? I don't know. I am not at practice as you said, but it's very hard to believe players with the pedigrees and talent of the 'sons couldn't help this team win.

Here's the other problem, now they're basically going to be freshmen next year too, kind of like Cooney is basically a freshman this year, but even to a greater extent because Buss, BJ (and Roberson, for all intents and purposes) have not played this year.

 

[llandz]

Didn't even read the answers.

Easy question...easy answer...

The basket

If we find it again, we are fine.. Just missing, Just get it in.

 

[obliterata]

What are we missing? The basket.

Since going 25-0 our shooting guard stats are:

------------- overall ----- 3 point
Cooney - 17-69 (25%) - 10-51 (20%)
Gbinije -- 8-26 (31%) --- 4-16 (25%)
RP ------- 0-0 (0%) ----- 0-0 (0%)
BJ -------- 0-0 (0%) ----- 0-0 (0%)
total ---- 25-95 (26%) -- 14-67 (21%)

In the last 7 games our shooting guards combined have made 25 baskets, less than 4 a game - that's not good.

 

[iommi]

I think playing Trevor 30+ minutes a night and playing CJ and Jerami all 40 minutes a night is "throwing sh/t against the wall and hoping something sticks."

Can you honestly say giving CJ a five minute breather the way he was playing tonight could have hurt ???

Tired legs hurt shooters, but in CJ's case, I think a 1-2 minute break on the bench in a game like tonight's could also work wonders for his head. He was obviously off...let him sit on the bench, decompress, watch the defense...then come in following a tv timeout, ready to turn things around. It worked in a game earlier this year...CJ was off...JB sat him for a little while and he wound up draining a couple huge shots, including one or two threes...the specific game alludes my memory right now...maybe our first game against NC State? I don't think so...but maybe someone else will remember.

 

[jec1521]

2010: Triche, Rautins, Wes, Rick, AO, Scoop, Joseph. You are right--we only played 7.
2011: Scoop, Triche, Kris, Rick, Fab, CJ, Dion, BMK, Southerland. 9 players.
2012: Scoop, Triche, Kris, Rak, Fab, CJ, Dion, BMK, Southerland. 9 players, all of whom played big minutes. Rak was token starter.
2013: MCW, Triche, CJ, Rak, Coleman, Southerland, Cooney, Grant. 8 players. Coleman, token starter.

Okay, so it hasn't been 9 every year those four years. But it wasn't 7.5 either.

So take away the token starters and...

2010 - 7
2011 - 7.5 if you want to count southerland as a .5
2012 - 8 only year we had a great bench and we were still down to 7.5 by tourney time (southerland as a .5 and fab suspension forced jb to play rak)
2013 - 7

So yeah. 7.5 is right in the ballpark