What will it take?

Orangezoo

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I know every game is different but I am really interested to see how UVA looks vs JMU Sunday. I saw some great defense vs us but also a team that looked like they might have failed to put up 40 vs a solid mtm team. I really hope I'm wrong but I could see them get stunned at home giving up 60 pts. That might shed a light on us. I really hope this UVA game is not the foreshadowing the Maryland game was for football.
 

Alsacs

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I really don't care if we struggle to win games this year as long as the product on the court is entertaining.

Most rationale fans didn't have big expectations this year. The meltdown IMO is because of how we looked offensively and how our offense looked so disorganized. If we lost to UVA 75-70 I think people are upset but the board isn't so pessimistic.
 

Orangezoo

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I really don't care if we struggle to win games this year as long as the product on the court is entertaining.

Most rationale fans didn't have big expectations this year. The meltdown IMO is because of how we looked offensively and how our offense looked so disorganized. If we lost to UVA 75-70 I think people are upset but the board isn't so pessimistic.
A better offensive product on the court means we are better positioned to grow and improve. I am at least glad even JB mentioned setting better screens. It would also be good to know just how good or bad UVA is per my previous post. Not that both teams can't get better but did we get smacked by another top 10 version of UVA or a fringe top 25 - nearly bubblelicious version of UVA? Plenty of the story to be told.
 

BaccoRdHoo

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I think Duke could've looked good against them, Louiville probably too, oh, maybe UNC as well.
I don't see why Syracuse fans are so upset after this game. This was the worst possible game a Syracuse team looking for an offensive identity could have opened with. As for UNC .. UVA has won 5 of 6 and TWICE HAVE HELD THEM UNDER 45 POINTS in that span. As for Louisville they have beaten UVA once since joining the ACC on a last second shot. UVA's average margin of victory over them has been by 20 plus points a game. Cuse should just forget this game and move on. No way you can judge your team by this game. Hell UVA has held 24 teams under 40 points since Bennet has been at UVA. EIGHT ACC teams have been held to historic lows during that span. Over half of the league. No way you can judge JB or your team after this game.
 

Cusedad2X

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Let's all draw final judgements on the team based on the opening season game against the defending national champions who have the best defense in college basketball while SU is trying to replace all of their scorers from last season. No team in the ACC would have looked good against them which is why they used Syracuse to take the hit while still getting a boost for the ACC network. Thanks again ACC.
C'mon...enough of that Virginia 2019-20 elite talk. They lost their 3 top players from last year. All of which (arguably) were better than what we lost. They did not have a super star recruit walk into their starting lineup. THEY DID NOT PLAY A SINGLE EXHIBITION GAME. They beat us with talent on par with what we have. Except, they have a point guard. There's that often repeated theme ......
 

Alsacs

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I don't see why Syracuse fans are so upset after this game. This was the worst possible game a Syracuse team looking for an offensive identity could have opened with. As for UNC .. UVA has won 5 of 6 and TWICE HAVE HELD THEM UNDER 45 POINTS in that span. As for Louisville they have beaten UVA once since joining the ACC on a last second shot. UVA's average margin of victory over them has been by 20 plus points a game. Cuse should just forget this game and move on. No way you can judge your team by this game. Hell UVA has held 24 teams under 40 points since Bennet has been at UVA. EIGHT ACC teams have been held to historic lows during that span. Over half of the league. No way you can judge JB or your team after this game.
Syracuse fans who aren’t complete JB fans first then Syracuse fans second are sick and tired of the lack of change from our program.
99.9% of us love and appreciate Jim Boeheim but he refuses to do change our pathetic half court offfensice philosophy of running an isolation based on offense where we don’t recruit skilled any offensive skilled big men and rely on combo guards to handle the point guard position strictly because he wants length at the guard position for our zone based defense.
Also fans support the zone defense as the defense we run but get frustrated when our opponent knows how to beat the zone and we never change defense for a possession or couple to try and change motivation and see if that confuses the defense.
Opponents know we don’t change all we do is ISO based offense where it’s all 1 on 1 and on defense 2-3 zone every time unless we spring a full court press if we are behind to try and speed up the opponent.

Most of our fanbase didn’t have any expectations for this season. All we wanted was to see a team that looked better on offense and develop our young players.

Our systems have caused us to play low possession, low scoring ugly basketball games that have had us mediocre in the regular season 5 years in a row.
Watching ugly basketball has hurt the product. Losing to Virginia wasn’t the issue it was our problems are the same and it appears we are headed for another low possession, low scoring basketball that will white knuckle enough wins to be on the bubble and hard on the eyes to watch.

Virginia has the recipe to beat us. You have a smart coach who prepares your team for our system we don’t change and then play tough defense that gives effort and packs the paint. We can’t score on teams with equal talent who give effort.

That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.
 

Cusedad2X

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Syracuse fans who aren’t complete JB fans first then Syracuse fans second are sick and tired of the lack of change from our program.
99.9% of us love and appreciate Jim Boeheim but he refuses to do change our pathetic half court offfensice philosophy of running an isolation based on offense where we don’t recruit skilled any offensive skilled big men and rely on combo guards to handle the point guard position strictly because he wants length at the guard position for our zone based defense.
Also fans support the zone defense as the defense we run but get frustrated when our opponent knows how to beat the zone and we never change defense for a possession or couple to try and change motivation and see if that confuses the defense.
Opponents know we don’t change all we do is ISO based offense where it’s all 1 on 1 and on defense 2-3 zone every time unless we spring a full court press if we are behind to try and speed up the opponent.

Most of our fanbase didn’t have any expectations for this season. All we wanted was to see a team that looked better on offense and develop our young players.

Our systems have caused us to play low possession, low scoring ugly basketball games that have had us mediocre in the regular season 5 years in a row.
Watching ugly basketball has hurt the product. Losing to Virginia wasn’t the issue it was our problems are the same and it appears we are headed for another low possession, low scoring basketball that will white knuckle enough wins to be on the bubble and hard on the eyes to watch.

Virginia has the recipe to beat us. You have a smart coach who prepares your team for our system we don’t change and then play tough defense that gives effort and packs the paint. We can’t score on teams with equal talent who give effort.

That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.
+MEGA -POST!!! Well thought out and presented analysis/opinion.
 

Cuse1055

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Syracuse fans who aren’t complete JB fans first then Syracuse fans second are sick and tired of the lack of change from our program.
99.9% of us love and appreciate Jim Boeheim but he refuses to do change our pathetic half court offfensice philosophy of running an isolation based on offense where we don’t recruit skilled any offensive skilled big men and rely on combo guards to handle the point guard position strictly because he wants length at the guard position for our zone based defense.
Also fans support the zone defense as the defense we run but get frustrated when our opponent knows how to beat the zone and we never change defense for a possession or couple to try and change motivation and see if that confuses the defense.
Opponents know we don’t change all we do is ISO based offense where it’s all 1 on 1 and on defense 2-3 zone every time unless we spring a full court press if we are behind to try and speed up the opponent.

Most of our fanbase didn’t have any expectations for this season. All we wanted was to see a team that looked better on offense and develop our young players.

Our systems have caused us to play low possession, low scoring ugly basketball games that have had us mediocre in the regular season 5 years in a row.
Watching ugly basketball has hurt the product. Losing to Virginia wasn’t the issue it was our problems are the same and it appears we are headed for another low possession, low scoring basketball that will white knuckle enough wins to be on the bubble and hard on the eyes to watch.

Virginia has the recipe to beat us. You have a smart coach who prepares your team for our system we don’t change and then play tough defense that gives effort and packs the paint. We can’t score on teams with equal talent who give effort.

That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.
Fantastic post and analysis. I’m right there with ya. I also think the success of Hop at Washington and wondering “what if” has fueled the fire as well.
 

Townie72

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Syracuse fans who aren’t complete JB fans first then Syracuse fans second are sick and tired of the lack of change from our program.
99.9% of us love and appreciate Jim Boeheim but he refuses to do change our pathetic half court offfensice philosophy of running an isolation based on offense where we don’t recruit skilled any offensive skilled big men and rely on combo guards to handle the point guard position strictly because he wants length at the guard position for our zone based defense.
Also fans support the zone defense as the defense we run but get frustrated when our opponent knows how to beat the zone and we never change defense for a possession or couple to try and change motivation and see if that confuses the defense.
Opponents know we don’t change all we do is ISO based offense where it’s all 1 on 1 and on defense 2-3 zone every time unless we spring a full court press if we are behind to try and speed up the opponent.

Most of our fanbase didn’t have any expectations for this season. All we wanted was to see a team that looked better on offense and develop our young players.

Our systems have caused us to play low possession, low scoring ugly basketball games that have had us mediocre in the regular season 5 years in a row.
Watching ugly basketball has hurt the product. Losing to Virginia wasn’t the issue it was our problems are the same and it appears we are headed for another low possession, low scoring basketball that will white knuckle enough wins to be on the bubble and hard on the eyes to watch.

Virginia has the recipe to beat us. You have a smart coach who prepares your team for our system we don’t change and then play tough defense that gives effort and packs the paint. We can’t score on teams with equal talent who give effort.

That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.
Alsacs is probably basing all this on the posts on this board and assumes that this group is representative of the fan base in general.

The 100 or so regular posters on this board, I submit, contains a much higher percentage of the deeply-interested and frustrated than the fan base in general.

Among the non-CNY resident, SU alumni --- the group to which I belong --- the figures are 90% in Group 1, 9% in group 2 and 1% in Group 3.

Wildhack knows this as does the Chancellor.
 

Ghost

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In all honesty, what will it take for people on this board to realize this program is in free fall?

A sixth straight year of 13+ losses?

Awful loss to Colgate or Cornell?

Losing record in ACC play?

NIT again?
It is, and always will be, a quick fix.

Recruit fewer point guards (evidence says anyone can be made into a PG), and less dynamic off guards (being able to get your own shot is an overrated skill).
 

orange79

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Alsacs is probably basing all this on the posts on this board and assumes that this group is representative of the fan base in general.

The 100 or so regular posters on this board, I submit, contains a much higher percentage of the deeply-interested and frustrated than the fan base in general.

Among the non-CNY resident, SU alumni --- the group to which I belong --- the figures are 90% in Group 1, 9% in group 2 and 1% in Group 3.

Wildhack knows this as does the Chancellor.
You present these numbers as facts. They are not.

IMO (and based on reading every post on this board), your Group 1 number is way too high, and Groups 2 and 3 too low.
 

moqui

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That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.
there is a 4th category: those who recognize that college basketball is a dynamic system and the fortunes of teams are subject to both endogenous and exogenous variables. persons in this category cover a wide spectrum of degrees of anxiousness and/or impatience

surveying the forum, i think it is apparent that there is almost nobody in your first category; that is a tendentious construct you have included into which you think you can toss all who object to your thesis without having to deal with their actual arguments

there are a lot of people in your category 2 at the moment who are raw from the uva game but who will move back into my category 4 as the season progresses

you are closer to a category 3 who is pretending to be category 2. just look at this obvious falsehood:
offense where we don’t recruit skilled any offensive skilled big men
for what role was taurean thompson recruited? thomas bryant? isaiah stewart? the fact that none of these recruitments worked out is immaterial; your contention is that boeheim does not even recruit such players and is a naked but necessary lie without which your argument is weakened.

i would say the board right now is nearly 0% category 1, temporarily close to 40% category 2, a vocal & permanent 3 to 5% category 3 and ~55% category 4

but that's just my $.02, ymmv
 

007

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Alsacs is probably basing all this on the posts on this board and assumes that this group is representative of the fan base in general.

The 100 or so regular posters on this board, I submit, contains a much higher percentage of the deeply-interested and frustrated than the fan base in general.

Among the non-CNY resident, SU alumni --- the group to which I belong --- the figures are 90% in Group 1, 9% in group 2 and 1% in Group 3.

Wildhack knows this as does the Chancellor.
Do you have direct access to what Wildhack and the Chancellor "know," or are you making an educated guess? How else would you know with such absolute certainty those are the percentages?

I wonder because the trend around here is to speak with 99% certainty, yet knowing 1% of the "facts."
 

chugg21

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The coaches just reloaded the program with a lot of nice young talent that will develop this season and for the next several years.
That's to be seen. The expected development arc of players that we were accustomed to for decades seems not to be a sure thing anymore. You would have expected development from Tyus, Frank, Oshae, Marek, Chukwu etc last year and there was none and some would argue regression occurred.
 

CousCuse

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That's to be seen. The expected development arc of players that we were accustomed to for decades seems not to be a sure thing anymore. You would have expected development from Tyus, Frank, Oshae, Marek, Chukwu etc last year and there was none and some would argue regression occurred.
Tyus developed as much as possible, Frank broke his foot, Chuk didn't really have it and OB's mind was on the NBA too much, but who could blame him with all that money up for grabs. I like the gus we have now and we have enough of them to get some real upside.
 

SUbear

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Do you have direct access to what Wildhack and the Chancellor "know," or are you making an educated guess? How else would you know with such absolute certainty those are the percentages?

I wonder because the trend around here is to speak with 99% certainty, yet knowing 1% of the "facts."
Many on the board have overreacted to this loss, myself included. It was an ugly game in every way, however it was only one loss.
The one thing I am certain about is JB hates to lose, and that things on the team will change both big and small. Everyone needs to take a breath, and see how this very young team developes. It is way too early for all these dire thoughts.
I do agree that Virginia was not very impressive, and is far from a dominant team this year, we were worse in this one game sample.
 

Alsacs

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there is a 4th category: those who recognize that college basketball is a dynamic system and the fortunes of teams are subject to both endogenous and exogenous variables. persons in this category cover a wide spectrum of degrees of anxiousness and/or impatience

surveying the forum, i think it is apparent that there is almost nobody in your first category; that is a tendentious construct you have included into which you think you can toss all who object to your thesis without having to deal with their actual arguments

there are a lot of people in your category 2 at the moment who are raw from the uva game but who will move back into my category 4 as the season progresses

you are closer to a category 3 who is pretending to be category 2. just look at this obvious falsehood:

for what role was taurean thompson recruited? thomas bryant? isaiah stewart? the fact that none of these recruitments worked out is immaterial; your contention is that boeheim does not even recruit such players and is a naked but necessary lie without which your argument is weakened.

i would say the board right now is nearly 0% category 1, temporarily close to 40% category 2, a vocal & permanent 3 to 5% category 3 and ~55% category 4

but that's just my $.02, ymmv
No offense and you are entitled your 2 cents but if you think I am a group 3 I can’t bother with you on the topic of Syracuse basketball.

All I want is a watchable product. When we were winning in 2012 I was the one the fighting the morons complaining.
Since 2015 our offense has been garbage. Our product is unwatchable and I want to watch it as I am supporter.
Sorry my gruff bothers you. I don’t think our HC is willingly to change and that is a problem.
 

chugg21

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Many on the board have overreacted to this loss, myself included. It was an ugly game in every way, however it was only one loss.
The one thing I am certain about is JB hates to lose, and that things on the team will change both big and small. Everyone needs to take a breath, and see how this very young team developes. It is way too early for all these dire thoughts.
I do agree that Virginia was not very impressive, and is far from a dominant team this year, we were worse in this one game sample.
Depends what early is. It's been about 5 straight years of 13+ losses. Think we had 5 total in the previous 30 years now it's the new normal. People keep making excuses that VA is a brutal 1st game. Well wouldn't you think that with all of the preparation time that they should have been prepared for what was coming and not look like an embarrassing disaster?
 

CousCuse

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Many on the board have overreacted to this loss, myself included. It was an ugly game in every way, however it was only one loss.
The one thing I am certain about is JB hates to lose, and that things on the team will change both big and small. Everyone needs to take a breath, and see how this very young team developes. It is way too early for all these dire thoughts.
I do agree that Virginia was not very impressive, and is far from a dominant team this year, we were worse in this one game sample.
Diakite and Huff will both be NBA players. They lost their scorers from last year but have guys ready to step up. It was their first gamer with a lot of new offensive parts, but Huff and Diakite are very strong anchors we don't have. Plus that little point guard who is very good.
 

SUbear

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Depends what early is. It's been about 5 straight years of 13+ losses. Think we had 5 total in the previous 30 years now it's the new normal. People keep making excuses that VA is a brutal 1st game. Well wouldn't you think that with all of the preparation time that they should have been prepared for what was coming and not look like an embarrassing disaster?
You are not wrong and I do not want to excuse that, however those NCAA sanctions hurt us more than anyone wants to admit. I still like this teams potential, and expect them to be better by midseason, if they are not then there is plenty of time and reason for gnashing of teeth and pulling out your hair, until then lets just let the team develop and see where we are at the end.
I expect some really big swings in performance and fans being driven slightly(or maybe more) insane by this team, I know I was, my happiness level was at zero during and after the Virginia game.
 

HoustonCuse

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I think the criticism of JB or the staff tends to be unrealistic on the whole. Most people believe that this is a lot easier than it really is, so I tend to defend the staff on the principle that most fan criticism comes from rote ignorance and emotion.
But what I saw against UVA has me very critical of the staff. I know UVA plays a great defense but our team had 2 exhibition games, multiple games overseas and more practice time than most teams. It’s not that we lost, it’s that after that prep we were not competent in any aspect of offense. Our players have more offensive skills than our fans think they do, but nobody short of a Battle level player will look anything but silly in this offense. That is a strategy failure or a teaching failure and I do expect a lot better from our veteran staff.
 

br801

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Maybe he surprises everyone and does whats right for the program. He has a brilliant basketball mind. He has to be disappointed in how his program is deteriorating.
Yeah, I'm sure he bemoans the deteriorating state of the program everyday over breakfast with Juli. You're in midseason form.
 

Cusefan0307

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I like to think I’m overall pretty reasonable with my takes, but it’s frustrating that we lose to UVA the same way every time and it doesn’t appear that we’ve made any sort of adjustments playing against them. I know they dominate a lot of teams, but the most frustrating aspect of it to me is Bennett does it for the most part without signing any blue chip prospects and I thought this UVA team was ripe to be picked off. I think many feel the only way we can win with JB’s system is if we have elite Isolation basketball players and that is not this teams strength. The lack of cutting and movement off the ball is disappointing especially since we have been practicing since the end of July!!!

Now I’ve never coached at JB’s level, but I would think we would want constant motion with this group to get these guys open shots as that is their strength. We’ve run the same high ball screen against them for 6 years and we know it doesn’t work. Why keep doing the same thing? Make an adjustment!!!
 

Cusefan0307

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Tyus developed as much as possible, Frank broke his foot, Chuk didn't really have it and OB's mind was on the NBA too much, but who could blame him with all that money up for grabs. I like the gus we have now and we have enough of them to get some real upside.
Battles shooting got worse and I could count one one hand the number of times he passed when going to the bucket.
 

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