What will it take?

[Cusefan0307]

Alsacs is probably basing all this on the posts on this board and assumes that this group is representative of the fan base in general.

The 100 or so regular posters on this board, I submit, contains a much higher percentage of the deeply-interested and frustrated than the fan base in general.

Among the non-CNY resident, SU alumni --- the group to which I belong --- the figures are 90% in Group 1, 9% in group 2 and 1% in Group 3.

Wildhack knows this as does the Chancellor.

That’s the problem. Your takes constantly reek of the Beltway martini crowd.

Anyway there’s a lot of locals/alums frustrated after Wednesday.

 

[Alsacs]

M

That’s the problem. Your takes constantly reek of the Beltway martini crowd.

Anyway there’s a lot of locals/alums frustrated after Wednesday.

If Townie just conceded the frustration wasn’t out of whack it would be fine.
He acts like his opinion is the only legit one.
I concede I am not always right but the opinions on the style of play and lack of change are on point.

 

[Townie72]

You present these numbers as facts. They are not.

IMO (and based on reading every post on this board), your Group 1 number is way too high, and Groups 2 and 3 too low.

I’m surprised you could so completely miss my point which is that the posters on this board are not even close to being representative of the fan base.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I’m surprised you could so completely miss my point which is that the posters on this board are not even close to being representative of the fan base.

I agree to an extent but one of the things that stood out to me after leaving CNY (born and raised there), is how generally pessimistic upstate NYers are. Leaving and either going back or being around someone from there,it is stark. So how does the average non-posting Syracusian feel about this? My guess would be: not too enthusiastic.

 

[CousCuse]

Battles shooting got worse and I could count one one hand the number of times he passed when going to the bucket.

My larger point was that there weren't any options on the bench, which we now have.

 

[br801]

there is a 4th category: those who recognize that college basketball is a dynamic system and the fortunes of teams are subject to both endogenous and exogenous variables. persons in this category cover a wide spectrum of degrees of anxiousness and/or impatience

surveying the forum, i think it is apparent that there is almost nobody in your first category; that is a tendentious construct you have included into which you think you can toss all who object to your thesis without having to deal with their actual arguments

there are a lot of people in your category 2 at the moment who are raw from the uva game but who will move back into my category 4 as the season progresses

you are closer to a category 3 who is pretending to be category 2. just look at this obvious falsehood:

for what role was taurean thompson recruited? thomas bryant? isaiah stewart? the fact that none of these recruitments worked out is immaterial; your contention is that boeheim does not even recruit such players and is a naked but necessary lie without which your argument is weakened.

i would say the board right now is nearly 0% category 1, temporarily close to 40% category 2, a vocal & permanent 3 to 5% category 3 and ~55% category 4

but that's just my $.02, ymmv

Thanks for the much needed injection of nuance into the conversation.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

In all honesty, what will it take for people on this board to realize this program is in free fall?

A sixth straight year of 13+ losses?

Awful loss to Colgate or Cornell?

Losing record in ACC play?

NIT again?

It's the Boiling Frog scenario.

Boiling frog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kinda odd, that some people are objecting to the phrase "free fall," rather than reacting to the actual concept. Whether or not "free fall" is hyperbolic or not shouldn't change the dialog.

 

[CousCuse]

Also, a number of guys developed so fast that they went right to the NBA after one or two years. But, because of reduced scholarships, there was no one behind therm. Those are facts, not feelings.

 

[Alsacs]

Also, a number of guys developed so fast that they went right to the NBA after one or two years. But, because of reduced scholarships, there was no one behind therm. Those are facts, not feelings.

You really don’t get the NBA draft.
They didn’t develop in one or two years.
The NBA drafts on upside. None of the guys who have left early for the NBA draft since 2010 except Wes Johnson were developed for the NBA.
They all left because they had shown enough on tape in form of upside to get drafted and the NBA team saw enough upside to garner a selection.

Player development has been poor.

 

[Cuseball]

You’re explaining it wrong. It’s consistent mediocrity. We are the basketball version of BC football.

Frustration is fine and i am too. However, we are nothing like BC. 2 finals fours in last 7 years plus a sweet sixteen is light years better than BC has ever done in football. We are in a rough stretch and talent is lower than we have been used to but talk of losing seasons and utter hopelessness are way overboard.

Cuse!

 

[CousCuse]

You really don’t get the NBA draft.
They didn’t develop in one or two years.
The NBA drafts on upside. None of the guys who have left early for the NBA draft since 2010 except Wes Johnson were developed for the NBA.
They all left because they had shown enough on tape in form of upside to get drafted and the NBA team saw enough upside to garner a selection.

Player development has been poor.

Lydon, Ennis, Mal, Grant all developed as the season went on. You just don't want to admit it and give the staff credit.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Frustration is fine and i am too. However, we are nothing like BC. 2 finals fours in last 7 years plus a sweet sixteen is light years better than BC has ever done in football. We are in a rough stretch and talent is lower than we have been used to but talk of losing seasons and utter hopelessness are way overboard.

Cuse!

The first final four isn’t included in the mediocrity. That was the end of the last great run when we averaged like 30 wins for 6 years. That team had 2 current NBA players and 3 fantastic upperclassmen. Fans need to stop bringing up that run. It’s disingenuous to that group to lump them in with our current issues.

 

[Alsacs]

Lydon, Ennis, Mal, Grant all developed as the season went on. You just don't want to admit it and give the staff credit.

Those players were not ready for the NBA when they left. They were not fully developed.
Grant and Ennis are 5 years ago.
Malachi Richardson left because his stock was sky high off the NCAA. Please tell how he developed?
He started the season off hot, got ice cold during conference play and then went hot at the most important time of the year.
You think he was developed product?
Your opinions are your opinion you say ridiculous things because you want reactions. I have no clue why but god bless you.
Lydon left because Hop left. He developed how? The guards never fed him the ball in the post. He was pick and pop player because our offense was so easy to defend.

None of those kids were fully developed. They left because that is how the NBA drafts it’s all upside.

 

[Cuseball]

The first final four isn’t included in the mediocrity. That was the end of the last great run when we averaged like 30 wins for 6 years. That team had 2 current NBA players and 3 fantastic upperclassmen. Fans need to stop bringing up that run. It’s disingenuous to that group to lump them in with our current issues.

Ok so choose your years and make your argument. Still BC in football is not a good comparison.

Cuse!

 

[CousCuse]

Those players were not ready for the NBA when they left. They were not fully developed.
Grant and Ennis are 5 years ago.
Malachi Richardson left because his stock was sky high off the NCAA. Please tell how he developed?
He started the season off hot, got ice cold during conference play and then went hot at the most important time of the year.
You think he was developed product?
Your opinions are your opinion you say ridiculous things because you want reactions. I have no clue why but god bless you.
Lydon left because Hop left. He developed how? The guards never fed him the ball in the post. He was pick and pop player because our offense was so easy to defend.

None of those kids were fully developed. They left because that is how the NBA drafts it’s all upside.

There are endless players across the country that show potential. We didn't have players behind them because of sanctions. We could of kept BJ if it wasn't for sanctions, for one and I'm sure we could have had more.

 

[jgeorge322]

a phoenix rises from the ashes. Tiger woods has had to remake his swing. Jb has rebuilt the program from lows before. Anyone recall craig davis or james theus? So it will be.

 

[Alsacs]

There are endless players across the country that show potential. We didn't have players behind them because of sanctions. We could of kept BJ if it wasn't for sanctions, for one and I'm sure we could have had more.

B.J. Johnson was pushed out because Jim Boeheim wanted to use his scholarship in the future and we were losing scholarships.
While we got overpunished the NCAA penalties are still the result of misconduct.
I don’t why I am wasting time and energy on you. You just say things to rile things up. Think whatever you want.

 

[CousCuse]

B.J. Johnson was pushed out because Jim Boeheim wanted to use his scholarship in the future and we were losing scholarships.
While we got overpunished the NCAA penalties are still the result of misconduct.
I don’t why I am wasting time and energy on you. You just say things to rile things up. Think whatever you want.

I'm offering plausible reasons as to our current plight.

 

[alphaorange]

The entire landscape will change in a couple of years. Once players can go directly to the draft from HS, a large portion of the 5 stars will never play college ball. IMO, that means that when the top 10-15 players aren't available for Duke, Kentucky, UNC, and Kansas, everyone will be fighting for the next level of players which will be mostly the same level. It should lead to more parity, albeit a lower level of performance.

 

[SUbear]

I’m surprised you could so completely miss my point which is that the posters on this board are not even close to being representative of the fan base.

If you mean they are more invested and more knowledgable than the casual fan I would agree.

 

[rrlbees]

That is the frustration of Syracuse basketball. We have 3 groups of fans.
1, Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated.
2. Syracuse Basketball fans who support what JB has done 100% but are sick of the status quo and lack of change. Who just want a watchable product.
3. Syracuse fans who just want to complain and feel the need to be negative no matter.

I would say this board right now is 20% number 1, 70% number 2 and 10% number 3.

For the record I am number 2.

you serious here?

1. i don’t know a single fan that doesn’t care if we lose, as long as JB is coach.

2. you sure you want to be in this group? What you just said here is I support JB 100% but he sucks.

3. I don’t think the number is that high, but there are some here. We call them the dirty dozen. Posters who don’t say much when we win or things are going well (b-ball or football) but if we lose or something is going wrong, their posting increase by 10x or more.

 

[SUbear]

Those players were not ready for the NBA when they left. They were not fully developed.
Grant and Ennis are 5 years ago.
Malachi Richardson left because his stock was sky high off the NCAA. Please tell how he developed?
He started the season off hot, got ice cold during conference play and then went hot at the most important time of the year.
You think he was developed product?
Your opinions are your opinion you say ridiculous things because you want reactions. I have no clue why but god bless you.
Lydon left because Hop left. He developed how? The guards never fed him the ball in the post. He was pick and pop player because our offense was so easy to defend.

None of those kids were fully developed. They left because that is how the NBA drafts it’s all upside.

Look at players from other programs, none are being developed any more, college ball is now just a minor league showcase of potential for 90 per cent of players. Our program is no different, we are not now getting the highest level recruits, and there are many reasons why that happened including but not limited to sanctions.

 

[rrlbees]

You really don’t get the NBA draft.
They didn’t develop in one or two years.
The NBA drafts on upside. None of the guys who have left early for the NBA draft since 2010 except Wes Johnson were developed for the NBA.
They all left because they had shown enough on tape in form of upside to get drafted and the NBA team saw enough upside to garner a selection.

Player development has been poor.

we must have gotten real lucky to have 6 straight years with a 1st round draft pick when none of them were considered sure fire nba players when they go here. Yes the nba drafts on potential quite often. But to have 6 straight guys shows some development took place otherwise they would have been talked about as future nba players when they were in high school.

 

[moqui]

It's the Boiling Frog scenario.

Boiling frog - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kinda odd, that some people are objecting to the phrase "free fall," rather than reacting to the actual concept. Whether or not "free fall" is hyperbolic or not shouldn't change the dialog.

or, it's neither

 

[Eric15]

1. i don’t know a single fan that doesn’t care if we lose, as long as JB is coach.

I would personally reword Alsacs #1 group from "Those that don’t care no matter what the product is JB is the program and he can never do wrong and nobody can be frustrated" to "People who have convinced themselves that anyone who comes after JB is automatically a downgrade."

That group is at least a plurality of posters here.