When it Comes Down To It, SU's Problems are 2

[OrangeinBoston]

It seems to me that there are 2 major problems. (I'm putting aside place-kicking as a detail easily corrected.)

1. Poor offensive line play which hamstrings the running game, putting the offense in 3rd and long, and then failing to protect Nassib long enough to allow WRs to get separation (which also limits the play calling i.e. slants vs throwing the ball down field).

2. Inability to pressure opposing QBs putting DBs in a tough situation chasing WRs all over the field.

Don't know if there is a solution to #1 as the entire unit looks mediocre. Putting Alexander in place of Hay only addresses 1 of 5 problems.

On defense, having Jones back will help, put I'm concerned that his injury will limit him. Need some scheme that disguises blitzes more effectively.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Why is Hay now the problem? Not saying he isn't, just curious? I saw the 3 holding penalties but 1 was bs Two weeks ago everyone was all over Chibane, some say its Macky some say it isn't, Personally, I think everyone has been at fault

 

[suthrills]

The offensive line is the biggest disappointment.
Tiller, Hay and Chibane were all relatively highly recruited.
Pugh developed into an all league player.
Macky's a problem they have to work around.
Marrone is supposed to be an Oline guru and mold this unit into a strength of the team and it hasn't come close to happening.

Having Jones back will be nice, especially to continue keeping guys fresh, but I agree that Schaeffer will have to continue to dial up blitzes to get pressure on the QB.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Tiller, Hay and Chibane were all relatively highly recruited.

I thought Hay and Chibane were marginal recruits actually. Wasn't there some coach in Jersey that made a big stink about how Chibane wasn't a D-I player during his recruitment?

 

[Millhouse]

It seems to me that there are 2 major problems. (I'm putting aside place-kicking as a detail easily corrected.)

1. Poor offensive line play which hamstrings the running game, putting the offense in 3rd and long, and then failing to protect Nassib long enough to allow WRs to get separation (which also limits the play calling i.e. slants vs throwing the ball down field).

2. Inability to pressure opposing QBs putting DBs in a tough situation chasing WRs all over the field.

Don't know if there is a solution to #1 as the entire unit looks mediocre. Putting Alexander in place of Hay only addresses 1 of 5 problems.

On defense, having Jones back will help, put I'm concerned that his injury will limit him. Need some scheme that disguises blitzes more effectively.

totally disagree with 1. pass blocking is the least of their offensive worries. don't know if i'm alone in that opinion.

 

[Chip]

totally disagree with 1. pass blocking is the least of their offensive worries. don't know if i'm alone in that opinion.

Granted, I haven't watched the 2nd half of Tulane, and maybe I need to put myself through that painful exercise, but I do think the OL has improved a bit week to week, both run and pass blocking. Are they playing good football at either? Not sure I'd go that far, but I know they're not doing as badly as they did against Wake. A little inconsistent but more moments of functionality. And to answer Barrel, when they called holds on Hay on 2 straight plays in the 1st half, I thought they were both weak calls. Even the somewhat illiterate Tulane fan they hired to do color commentary agreed on one of them.

I think the biggest problem with the offense is that you have 11 guys who are very inconsistent, pretty much each player is mistake prone (less Pugh and Provo than anyone else). And we have an offense that is so dependent on perfect execution. It's going to be rare that we can get all 11 guys doing the right thing on an extended drive.

Hopefully we'll see more of Dorian getting the ball in space. A good way to mask mistakes by others is having the fastest guy being able to get up to speed with the football in his hands.

 

[realcusefan888]

The offensive line is the biggest disappointment.
Tiller, Hay and Chibane were all relatively highly recruited.
Pugh developed into an all league player.
Macky's a problem they have to work around.
Marrone is supposed to be an Oline guru and mold this unit into a strength of the team and it hasn't come close to happening.

Having Jones back will be nice, especially to continue keeping guys fresh, but I agree that Schaeffer will have to continue to dial up blitzes to get pressure on the QB.

think the oline has played relatively well. the origin of their struggles has been predictable play calling. too much old school thinking by marrone and hacket. we need to throw early, get people out of the box and then run! the line played well against a good rutgers dline! the play calling and nassibs lack of pocket awareness...his robotic drop and lack of moxy to slide and move to throwing lanes that has also not helped this group.

 

[ImperialOrange]

I thought Hay and Chibane were marginal recruits actually. Wasn't there some coach in Jersey that made a big stink about how Chibane wasn't a D-I player during his recruitment?

Chibane we flipped from USF IIRC. We were the only one after Hay.

 

[dollarbill44]

Granted, I haven't watched the 2nd half of Tulane, and maybe I need to put myself through that painful exercise, but I do think the OL has improved a bit week to week, both run and pass blocking. Are they playing good football at either? Not sure I'd go that far, but I know they're not doing as badly as they did against Wake. A little inconsistent but more moments of functionality. And to answer Barrel, when they called holds on Hay on 2 straight plays in the 1st half, I thought they were both weak calls. Even the somewhat illiterate Tulane fan they hired to do color commentary agreed on one of them.

That was Deuce McAllister. Btw, I saw at least 2 more holds on Hay that weren't called. He was the main problem last week on the OL as he was consistently beaten on the outside rush - and he wasn't even getting close in the 2nd half.

I thought they could have moved the pocket around more against Tulane to slow down some of the outside blitzes Tulane was bringing on every passing down in the 2nd half. This tactic has worked well in earlier games this season.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Why is Hay now the problem? Not saying he isn't, just curious? I saw the 3 holding penalties but 1 was bs Two weeks ago everyone was all over Chibane, some say its Macky some say it isn't, Personally, I think everyone has been at fault

I've bit my tongue about it forever but Hay has always been a big issue IMO. Tried to give him the benefit of the doubt last year with the ankle injury but at this point it's pretty obvious he lacks the foot work/speed to get into proper position.

Other teams always have a man free from the right side of our line. If the RB misses him Nassib is a sitting duck. That's why Nassib rolls left, that's why most of our successful run plays go left. There's no reason to have a right handed QB roll left and cut off 2/3rds of the field to throw to unless you know he's going to get drilled rolling right.

 

[bnoro]

think the oline has played relatively well. the origin of their struggles has been predictable play calling. too much old school thinking by marrone and hacket. we need to throw early, get people out of the box and then run! the line played well against a good rutgers dline! the play calling and nassibs lack of pocket awareness...his robotic drop and lack of moxy to slide and move to throwing lanes that has also not helped this group.

You run to set up the pass. It's not old school thinking.

 

[kingottoiii]

You run to set up the pass. It's not old school thinking.

Bad passing teams run to set up the pass. Bad running teams pass to set up the run.

 

[C Bomb]

Fwiw, i was at work and had to listen to the game online streaming it through a New Orleans station since SU's game aren't streamed by their affiliates in NY. It was interesting hearing the game from their homers perspectives. They repeatedly called out Hay numerous times for what they thought were uncalled holds. Apparently he was getting blown the freak up by that DE. Not good when you hear an OLineman's name so much.

I recall Hay having an ASU offer also.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Bad passing teams run to set up the pass. Bad running teams pass to set up the run.

Pretty sure if we could do one consistanly enough to set up the other we would.

 

[Millhouse]

Bad passing teams run to set up the pass. Bad running teams pass to set up the run.

so teams that are good at both can't be a pass first or run first team? interesting. good to know that stanford is a bad passing team

 

[kingottoiii]

so teams that are good at both can't be a pass first or run first team? interesting. good to know that stanford is a bad passing team

Good teams can do what ever the F they want. They don't need to set a damn thing up. You are missing my point which is something you are good at.

 

[Millhouse]

Good teams can do what ever the F they want. They don't need to set a damn thing up. You are missing my point which is something you are good at.

do you think that's what good teams do? whatever they feel like, whatever they prefer? I get your point, i just think it's dumb

 

[kingottoiii]

do you think that's what good teams do? whatever they feel like, whatever they prefer? I get your point, i just think it's dumb

You think it is dumb for a team that can't run to force the issue and run the ball? Interesting. Goes totally against 99.9% of your posts on here. Isn't trying to establish the run with an awful run game a "meathead" move?

 

[All4SU]

Fwiw, i was at work and had to listen to the game online streaming it through a New Orleans station since SU's game aren't streamed by their affiliates in NY. It was interesting hearing the game from their homers perspectives. They repeatedly called out Hay numerous times for what they thought were uncalled holds. Apparently he was getting blown the freak up by that DE. Not good when you hear an OLineman's name so much.

I recall Hay having an ASU offer also.

YEah, there is no doubt McCallister was calling the game like a homer for Tulane. At one point in the first half, he even said something like "Hopefully, we can get a touchdown out of this possession."

 

[suthrills]

I thought Hay and Chibane were marginal recruits actually. Wasn't there some coach in Jersey that made a big stink about how Chibane wasn't a D-I player during his recruitment?

Chibane flipped from USF and Hay had an ASU offer.
To me that's relatively highly recruited compared to the many years we beat the Akrons of the world for recruits.

 

[Millhouse]

You think it is dumb for a team that can't run to force the issue and run the ball? Interesting. Goes totally against 99.9% of your posts on here. Isn't trying to establish the run with an awful run game a "meathead" move?

i like systems. coaches can't know that many systems in depth. you're going to have bread and butter plays. the "setting up" comes from defenses cheating. teams might run a million bubble screens if the defense is getting sick of getting beat on zone runs, but you can't do bubble screens to set up runs (as much as spence wishes you could) doesn't mean you have a bad passing game and it doesn't mean that teams who are good at both can just call whatever they feel like.

most teams have identities. if oregon can't run the ball well (in some imaginary universe) they're still going to try. that's their offense. if it doesn't work for long enough, you bring in a new coach with a new system. you're not really setting up one vs the other, you just have the bread and butter and you have plays that constrains how much defense can cheat (play actions, bubble screens, fb dives, whatever)

damned if i know what our bread and butter is... part of our weakness.

 

[OrangeMojo]

Chibane we flipped from USF IIRC. We were the only one after Hay.

Chibane supposedly had an offer to greyshirt from USF - so a USF offer but for a greyshirt slot - definitely wouldn't call him somewhat highly recruited

With that in mind - kid is only a RS Soph, so I do think he'll end up being a solid OL for the program. I certainly never expected him to be starting so early in his career.

 

[Upstate]

Chibane we flipped from USF IIRC. We were the only one after Hay.

Hay was down to SU and ASU. He visited ASU before committing to Syracuse.

 

[rrlbees]

Chibane supposedly had an offer to greyshirt from USF - so a USF offer but for a greyshirt slot - definitely wouldn't call him somewhat highly recruited

With that in mind - kid is only a RS Soph, so I do think he'll end up being a solid OL for the program. I certainly never expected him to be starting so early in his career.

this is true.

 

[StillJimPA]

I recently rewatchedd both the Pinstripe and Tulane games specifically looking at the o line. Here is what I saw.

Both Hay and Chibane seemed adequate for run blocking but both are weak on pass protection. Hay gets beat often on the outside rush therefore he is holding.

Chibane seems to get his body slightly rotated or turned when pass blocking then it is all over with the defender running by him. At other times it is as if he doesn't see the guy right in front if him letting him get to Nassib?

DM ripped into him in the PSB for missing a man in pass protection..

The disappointing aspect of it is these two have not improved from what I saw since last year.

At center Bart looked huge compared to Macky and played well. Macky is undersized and that is an issue. Occasionally he is flattened by the attacker.

And, yeah we miss DC3 badly. He looked big, fast, and determined in the PBS. I have concluded Antwon is best used as a change of pace back or out in space. He can carry the ball 20 times ok but he lacks power.