Which player would you prefer on your SU team?

[SBU72]

I mentioned before that I watch some past SU games during the summer. So far this summer I have watched the 2006 BET, 2004 NCCA vs BYU, 2013 BET vs PiTT, 2008 home game vs Georgetown, and 2008 NCAA 1st and 2n rd. Watching the Georgetown game I began to wonder a couple of things. Jonny Flynn had a great 2 years and was a 1st round pick. If you had a choice who would you want Flynn or MCW? Flynn was a better scorer and driver while MCW a better pg but then MCW had a better cast around him. Which brings me to Donte Greene. During that Gerogetwon game, Greene hit some real deep 3's. He was bascially the whole offense on that team until Jonny got in the grove late in the season. Who would you prefer on your SU team, Greene or Southerland and his shooting abilities? Greene was set to go pro right fromthe start. Southerland not so much but was a key member of the 2012-13 final four team.

 

[OttoMets]

When? The two points guards as sophomores? Freshman? Four-year players? Flynn was more offensively talented as a sophomore and more productive as a freshman, but I'd much rather have Mike coming season than Flynn at any time.

And South over Donte, all day.

 

[SBU72]

When? The two points guards as sophomores? Freshman? Four-year players? Flynn was more offensively talented as a sophomore and more productive as a freshman, but I'd much rather have Mike coming season than Flynn at any time.

And South over Donte, all day.

Fair question, but I think you have to answer based on the actual info, not on projections. So based on their carreers. We've way to many players not live up to our expectations. What you said about Flynn is true but MCW was a leader on a Final four team.

 

[stuckinbig11]

Flynn and Southerland

 

[rrlbees]

Greene is the easy pick. The other one is a toss up but I'll go with Flynn by a nose.


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[SoBeCuse]

Greene over James as well. No question. The guy had a nice mid-range game late in the season and rebounded well.

 

[Madbiker]

MCW over Flynn on defense alone before we ever get to passing ability. No contest. Greene slight edge over Southerland.

 

[jekelish]

I'd go with Greene and MCW. MCW gets the nod over Jonny primarily because he's half a foot taller than Flynn.

 

[OttoMets]

How could anyone pick Greene over Southerland? Worse shooter from 2 and 3, worse defender by an enormous margin. Better rebounder, not by much. Neither had much interior game to speak of.

 

[jordoo]

Greene was much better as a freshman than James ever was.
Flynn was a much better scorer than MCW and could get by anyone near the end of his sophmore campaign

That said I'd love the combination of Greene MCW which would be my choice if they came together. MCW was perhaps better on defense than Andy when he wanted to be. Greene just had a much more varied offensive game than James and would have thrived with MCW IMO.

 

[jordoo]

How could anyone pick Greene over Southerland? Worse shooter from 2 and 3, worse defender by an enormous margin. Better rebounder, not by much. Neither had much interior game to speak of.

Greene worse shooter on a team with NO experience and NO other shooters as freshman!!!! James was streakkkkkkkkkkky even as a senior and really had nothing close to Greene's all around offensive game especially off the bounce. Had Devo not gotten hurt you could add 4-5 ticks to Greene's shooting percentage maybe more because he would have operated out of the mid/high post much more with another shooter on the floor.

 

[RF2044]

I'd go with Greene and MCW. MCW gets the nod over Jonny primarily because he's half a foot taller than Flynn.

Agreed--MCW was perfect for the zone, Flynn was a below average defender in it.

 

[HOFCeluck]

MPG PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG BPG SPG
35.8 17.7 41.8 34.5 70.7 2.0 7.2 1.6 1.3

29.5 13.3 45.0 40.2 78.9 1.1 5.2 0.8 1.4

 

[HOFCeluck]

Closer than I thought, but I give the edge to South because of better defense and shot selection.

 

[Knicks411]

Do I get 4 years of James vs 1 year of Donte?

How could anyone pick Greene over Southerland? Worse shooter from 2 and 3, worse defender by an enormous margin. Better rebounder, not by much. Neither had much interior game to speak of.

I think the argument for Donte would be something like if he was asked to play the role in the offense that James was, his numbers would look closer to his. I'm not necessarily making that argument, especially because James did take a lot of shots last season, but Donte was probably asked to shoulder a lot more of the load than James was, to the detriment of his shooting numbers.

So it kinda goes back to my first question; I think if Donte stayed in school for 3 or 4 years, by the end of his run he would've have been a really good player, better than James and able to do a lot more on the court. But he didn't.

 

[jekelish]

The other thing to remember about Donte vs Dirty is that Donte had such a more well rounded game than Dirty, it's incredible. Dirty was a shooter, and only a shooter. If he wasn't on, he was pretty useless out there. I like the kid, but it's the truth. Donte had a solid handle and could create his own shot, which is something Dirty could never do. Hell, just compare Donte and Dirty at the same age and it's not even within the same realm of being a comparison.

I think a lot of the anti-Donte stuff is going into people picking Dirty over him. I'd take Donte every day of the week over James.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I know Donte had to shoulder a lot of the burden without Rautins and Devendorf.

But am I just imagining A LOT of threes jacked with about 25 secs on the shot clock?

 

[OttoMets]

Greene worse shooter on a team with NO experience and NO other shooters as freshman!!!! James was streakkkkkkkkkkky even as a senior and really had nothing close to Greene's all around offensive game especially off the bounce. Had Devo not gotten hurt you could add 4-5 ticks to Greene's shooting percentage maybe more because he would have operated out of the mid/high post much more with another shooter on the floor.

Jordoo, I love your posts (and know that we disagree on a lot related to 2008). But he did get hurt and we can't add any ticks.

Also, Greene and Devendorf did get to play 9 games (better than a quarter of the season) together. Devendorf's effect on Donte's three-point shooting: if he had an effect, it was bad. 17 for 59 for Donte in the first nine games for a complete (and still mediocre) 6-3 team. 28.8 percent, well worse than the 34.5% he recovered to shoot for the season.

And I don't agree that Donte had any game off the bounce. None that he demonstrated consistently in games, at least. He's even with South in that regard. His offensive game consisted of threes (some of them very deep) and, occasionally (as in the Marquette Senior Day game), a midrange jumper. And none of them went in as frequently as South's did.

Southerland's career numbers (44.9%/37.0%, assist/turnover slightly above 1.0) are a lot better than Donte's (41.8%/34.5%, 0.78 assist/turnover). His defense was so much better. And if we're going to play the "what if" game, I'd give more weight to South's inconsistent minutes for his first two seasons than I would to Donte's injured teammate. South proved he could shine without the quick hook (like most good shooters, see Cooney discussion in the other thread). Donte's production was worse with Devendorf on the floor.

 

[OttoMets]

Do I get 4 years of James vs 1 year of Donte?



I think the argument for Donte would be something like if he was asked to play the role in the offense that James was, his numbers would look closer to his. I'm not necessarily making that argument, especially because James did take a lot of shots last season, but Donte was probably asked to shoulder a lot more of the load than James was, to the detriment of his shooting numbers.

So it kinda goes back to my first question; I think if Donte stayed in school for 3 or 4 years, by the end of his run he would've have been a really good player, better than James and able to do a lot more on the court. But he didn't.

SBU corrected me on this, so apologies to all if I've misunderstood the exercise.

Donte could have been very good. Combine Donte's shooting stroke and build with Senior Rick Jackson's work ethic, Scoop's drive, or someone else's determination to work on his weaknesses and he'd have been an all-time great.

But I didn't see those things that year and no one seems to have seen them since. In six years as a collegian/pro, Donte hasn't developed a handle, shot selection, defensive instinct, or desire to crash the glass. So it's difficult to believe that he'd have done so in three or four college seasons and thus it's hard to believe he'd have honed his great stroke into great shooting percentage via discipline or learned to be a great wing defender or turned 6'11" into 10 rebounds a night.

So I agree.

 

[rrlbees]

The other thing to remember about Donte vs Dirty is that Donte had such a more well rounded game than Dirty, it's incredible. Dirty was a shooter, and only a shooter. If he wasn't on, he was pretty useless out there. I like the kid, but it's the truth. Donte had a solid handle and could create his own shot, which is something Dirty could never do. Hell, just compare Donte and Dirty at the same age and it's not even within the same realm of being a comparison.

I think a lot of the anti-Donte stuff is going into people picking Dirty over him. I'd take Donte every day of the week over James.

Exactly. People are still pissed he left. Love James but its not even close as to who is the better overall player. Donte's one and only year he was given the green light by JB to put it up since there was little else.


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[jekelish]

In six years as a collegian/pro, Donte hasn't developed a handle.

Donte Greene is Curly Neal compared to James Southerland.

 

[Knicks411]

Was just looking at some of Donte's career NBA numbers, its pretty crazy how close they are to Wes's. Donte is a career 40.6% shooter, Wes is 40%. Career 30.4% from 3, Wes is 33.6%, so he has him there. They are in kind of the same range in career rebond % (8 vs 6.7) and Assist% (6.7 vs 8.4), and they have the exact same block (2%) and steal (1.3%) rates. Donte career 10 PER, Wes 9.5.

All of this, by the way, means absolutely nothing. I just found it interesting.

 

[OttoMets]

Exactly. People are still pissed he left. Love James but its not even close as to who is the better overall player. Donte's one and only year he was given the green light by JB to put it up since there was little else.


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That's as flawed an argument as has been offered.

Tony Scott had a green light once, too. So did DeShaun Williams. Assumption of some green light doesn't make inferior production better than someone who actually make the shots.

And imputing some sort of bias against people who are pointing out facts doesn't hold much water, either.

 

[OttoMets]

Donte Greene is Curly Neal compared to James Southerland.

Neither demonstrated a handle at any point. No advantage for either player.

 

[rrlbees]

That's as flawed an argument as has been offered.

Tony Scott had a green light once, too. So did DeShaun Williams. Assumption of some green light doesn't make inferior production better than someone who actually make the shots.

And imputing some sort of bias against people who are pointing out facts doesn't hold much water, either.

Having a green light to put up 3's because there weren't many other options and you at least need a threat to keep defenses honest, is absolutely a valid reason for having taking more than he should have. JB never got on his case about it like he has many times with others. And you're probably too young to remember the over the top hate and outrage directed at Greene when he left. Greene was and is better than James.


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