Who will provide the fire next year?

[jordoo]

Good thread, Jordoo ... lots to think about. I agree with you and H/C that DC2 is a great kid to root for. We're all wishing the best for him after a couple of really frustrating years. That said, there are some serious concerns in the middle:

Defense:

Neither DC2 nor Obokoh has the explosive leaping or shot-blocking ability that we've been spoiled with the last few years. Diagne's coming in at around 6-8" - not exactly an intimidating presence in a league littered with 6-11/7 foot low post players. He's a beefy guy .. but I foresee problems with a center at that height -- especially when our 4 (TR) is 6-7, 205. So apart from DC2's rebounding (which is good), I think inside defense, rebounding and shot-blocking are big concerns.

Secondly, our zone requires the C to run out to defend the weakside corner sometimes. I'm having trouble imagining DC2 having the footspeed to do this. Same for Diagne. Question mark for Obokoh.

Offense:

DC2 has lots of potential as a scorer, let's hope he starts reaching it this year. He's a good O-rebounder and can get and keep position on the low block. He also has a short-range jumper and a soft touch around the rim. On the other hand, he has to rely on position because he doesn't play over the rim or dunk ferociously. So within his skillset, I don't think we can expect more than 10-12 ppg from him. Obokoh is not a scorer and has no b/b low block offensive game. So lack of inside scoring balance is probably going to be an issue.

Depth/Health

- Is DC2 fully recovered, moving well and can he run the court for 25 mpg?
- Can DC2 move his feet quickly enough to get out on a weakside corner shooter (as the zone occasionally requires)?
- Can Obokoh avoid fouls/position problems on D to play 10-15 mpg?
- Diange's got bulk (250), but can he move, adjust to D-1 speed, block shots ... or shoot some of those mid-range shots we've seen him hit in the vids?

I completely agree about the defensive concerns. Neither Coleman or Obokoh are going to be shot blockers nor can either really get to the corner IMO. Coleman will have to be more like Arinze was defensively to have success. He needs to use that body to keep post players outside their comfort distance and he needs to learn the angles to cut off drives down the lane. As far as Diange he is surprisingly agile for his size and may be OK at making the corner. He also has a huge wing span and blocks a lot of shots on the way up. How that transfers to D1 we will have to see.

 

[pearl31]

Maybe my cynicism is getting in the way, but my thoughts on those two positions are as follows:

Center: Coleman doesn't play. Obokoh starts and is as passable as any second-year Syracuse big man (i.e., adequate rebounder, not a part of the offense, defensively improved but foul-prone). I don't know anything about Diagne but fear that his first-year ceiling is right around Obokoh's - Boeheim won't want him to shoot the ball and his unfamiliarity with the defense will lead to yelling.

Off-guard: come hell or high water, Cooney will play 37 minutes a game. 40 down the conference stretch. If he doesn't have a career year, we're not getting good (to say nothing of efficient) production from this spot. I hope the talented freshman behind him is the patient type.

Here's hoping I'm wrong.

wow

 

[Cusefan0307]

wow

Personally I think Cooney has his best year in Orange and I also think DC2 will be able to produce. I trust their work ethic to prove people wrong.

I'm more worried about Kaleb and whether we will have to move G there which hurts his matchup advantages.

 

[Brooky03]

Maybe my cynicism is getting in the way, but my thoughts on those two positions are as follows:

Center: Coleman doesn't play. Obokoh starts and is as passable as any second-year Syracuse big man (i.e., adequate rebounder, not a part of the offense, defensively improved but foul-prone). I don't know anything about Diagne but fear that his first-year ceiling is right around Obokoh's - Boeheim won't want him to shoot the ball and his unfamiliarity with the defense will lead to yelling.

Off-guard: come hell or high water, Cooney will play 37 minutes a game. 40 down the conference stretch. If he doesn't have a career year, we're not getting good (to say nothing of efficient) production from this spot. I hope the talented freshman behind him is the patient type.

Here's hoping I'm wrong.

I will bet you money that you are wrong on both points.

 

[OttoMets]

I will bet you money that you are wrong on both points.

I made it clear that I'd like to be wrong about this (which would suggest that I'm not interested in a bet).

It'd be more fun for someone on a basketball message board to discuss the substance of my post (like jordoo always does) instead of replying with one-liners.

I can cite a lot of instances in which Boeheim sits a talented freshman behind his limited but preferred upperclass player, and Syracuse fans have seen 30 years of allegedly skilled freshman big men coming in and producing very little. If anyone wants to convince me why that will change in 2016, I'm all ears.

 

[Brooky03]

I made it clear that I'd like to be wrong about this (which would suggest that I'm not interested in a bet).

It'd be more fun for someone on a basketball message board to discuss the substance of my post (like jordoo always does) instead of replying with one-liners.

I can cite a lot of instances in which Boeheim sits a talented freshman behind his limited but preferred upperclass player, and Syracuse fans have seen 30 years of allegedly skilled freshman big men coming in and producing very little. If anyone wants to convince me why that will change in 2016, I'm all ears.

wow, you took my post as much more hostile than it was intended.

lighten up and try not to be so defensive. We're all Syracuse fans able to cite a lot of different crap about the program's history.

 

[jordoo]

I made it clear that I'd like to be wrong about this (which would suggest that I'm not interested in a bet).

It'd be more fun for someone on a basketball message board to discuss the substance of my post (like jordoo always does) instead of replying with one-liners.

I can cite a lot of instances in which Boeheim sits a talented freshman behind his limited but preferred upperclass player, and Syracuse fans have seen 30 years of allegedly skilled freshman big men coming in and producing very little. If anyone wants to convince me why that will change in 2016, I'm all ears.

I may not be able to convince you otherwise but I encourage you to check Diange out. Lots of highlights and stats. He's done very well in general against higher rated taller bigs that he has competed against. He's still going to be a freshman and you simply cannot argue that his is a little undersized height wise for a center but no more so than Obokoh and Diange has tree trunks for legs and will not be moved off his spot. I'm not saying he will come in and be a scoring option but his offensive base is good enough that at some point in his college career I expect him to be exactly that. Again if you picture freshman Rick Jackson who played a little 4 but mostly backed up Arinze at the 5 I think that's a good low threshold for Diange as a freshman. Jackson struggled at times and got JB all agitated with his defense but he mixed it up inside, blocked some shots, competed on the boards and was a capable garbage man around the rim.

 

[OttoMets]

wow, you took my post as much more hostile than it was intended.

lighten up and try not to be so defensive. We're all Syracuse fans able to cite a lot of different crap about the program's history.

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across as defensive. Just aiming for a hoops discussion.

 

[iommi]

We are going to be severely limited by the fact that Boeheim will ride Trevor Cooney into the ground once again. Trevor is what he is: a mediocre high volume shooter. He doesn't do anything particularly well. He certainly doesn't pass well; he's literally the worst Syracuse guard in transition that I have ever watched. I would put his defense at average. The problem is JB apparently doesn't view him this way. (Cue the posts about JB being a Hall of Famer and knowing more than I do...) TC is a 5th year senior; to expect him to improve at this juncture is a laugh. I'd play TC 20-25 mpg at the 2 and pull him if he goes into hero mode with his shooting. TC's shot selection and shooting % should determine if he gets any more minutes than that.

If Malachi shows in the early games that he's ready to help us, JB absolutely has to play him 10-15 mpg at the 2 in order for us to be good.

 

[moqui]

Maybe my cynicism is getting in the way, but my thoughts on those two positions are as follows:

Center: Coleman doesn't play. Obokoh starts and is as passable as any second-year Syracuse big man (i.e., adequate rebounder, not a part of the offense, defensively improved but foul-prone). I don't know anything about Diagne but fear that his first-year ceiling is right around Obokoh's - Boeheim won't want him to shoot the ball and his unfamiliarity with the defense will lead to yelling.

Off-guard: come hell or high water, Cooney will play 37 minutes a game. 40 down the conference stretch. If he doesn't have a career year, we're not getting good (to say nothing of efficient) production from this spot. I hope the talented freshman behind him is the patient type.

Here's hoping I'm wrong.

Coleman is a huge question mark, to be sure. By the time SU begins playing real games, it will be nearly 2 full years since he has played in a competitive environment. We certainly have to cross our fingers on that, because we do have unknowns behind him. Indeed, given his history, the 5 spot is a complete unknown.

And the 4 spot is not much better. TR was adequate and showed flashes of being much more, but we don't have anything proven behind him. He might have to go 35 minutes a game, 40 on a lot of nights.

We have only 1 proven rotation player at the 4-5, everything else is a question mark. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is just not being realistic.

I disagree with you on Cooney. He won't have to play 37 minutes a night. I wouldn't be surprised to see the guard minutes end up roughly 30-30-20 between TC, MR & KJ. Gibinije's versatility is the key here. His ability to run the offense means that we can play both MR & TC together - G running the point on offense but the back line of the zone on defense, Cooney & Mal on the wings on offense & up top on the other end. And with a second shooter on the floor, presumably Cooney will benefit both from fewer minutes and more open looks.

Presumably.


The best question about next year might be who is not going to play. Assuming JB goes his typical 7.5 (8 if you prefer) rotation, then only 2 guys will be out. If DC comes back strong and Diagne is what we hope, then Obokoh is going to be one of them. I would think Howard will be the other, unless KJ really does not improve and he is forced into the rotation.

 

[OttoMets]

I may not be able to convince you otherwise but I encourage you to check Diange out. Lots of highlights and stats. He's done very well in general against higher rated taller bigs that he has competed against. He's still going to be a freshman and you simply cannot argue that his is a little undersized height wise for a center but no more so than Obokoh and Diange has tree trunks for legs and will not be moved off his spot. I'm not saying he will come in and be a scoring option but his offensive base is good enough that at some point in his college career I expect him to be exactly that. Again if you picture freshman Rick Jackson who played a little 4 but mostly backed up Arinze at the 5 I think that's a good low threshold for Diange as a freshman. Jackson struggled at times and got JB all agitated with his defense but he mixed it up inside, blocked some shots, competed on the boards and was a capable garbage man around the rim.

Jackson never really got fit (at least not "high D-I, my career rests on my work ethic" fit) until he was a senior, but he did surprise me as a freshman - I thought he'd be a bruising undersized center in the Pittsburgh mold (or like our own Eric Williams), but he showed some decent offensive skill right off the bat. He never developed great touch with his shot, but he clearly grew up learning how to play the game. Good vision and passing and OK footwork, even as a young guy. He was really lucky to come in with Sean Williams in the depleted-roster year - he got steady minutes at a time in his development when people like Fab or Richard Manning were riding pine.

I bet Diagne can do that and more (shooting included) on a healthier frame. But I'm seeing Boeheim get more conservative by leaps and bounds as he gets older. My hunch is that the young guy will show some nice things in November, get blasted for defensive lapses (or his teammates' lapses), and get buried on the bench. Then as a junior he'll show the same incredible moves, score in double-figures, and jordoo and a small group of others will say "SEE? He's been an obvious talent all along!"

We've seen this movie once or twice before. I'd love to see the young bigs get a chance right away, but that opportunity isn't usually there in the Syracuse seniority system.

 

[Brooky03]

Sorry, didn't mean it to come across as defensive. Just aiming for a hoops discussion.

To your points, I think Cooney will play more than 30mpg but I don't think he'll be in the high 30's or 40 for any game. I'm also of the unpopular opinion that he's earned the PT. He's not as poor of a shooter as some think and he's going to thrive if we can get other shooting threats (Malachi and a more assertive Gbinije) on the court with him. Speaking of Malachi, if he can pick up the defense quickly, Boeheim will give him double digit minutes in conference play. He's practically the only backup for SG and SF, unless Lydon shows up ready to go from day 1 (which he might).

Diagne is my favorite player in the incoming class. He's going to be a big time contributor here eventually and his physical maturity will help tremendously in terms of getting PT as a frosh. If Coleman can't go at all, I fully expect Diagne will be able give us productive minutes at the 5. As it is, he might really impress people as Roberson's backup at the 4. He's really light on his feet and has above average ball-handling for a player his size.

 

[pearl31]

Jackson never really got fit (at least not "high D-I, my career rests on my work ethic" fit) until he was a senior, but he did surprise me as a freshman - I thought he'd be a bruising undersized center in the Pittsburgh mold (or like our own Eric Williams), but he showed some decent offensive skill right off the bat. He never developed great touch with his shot, but he clearly grew up learning how to play the game. Good vision and passing and OK footwork, even as a young guy. He was really lucky to come in with Sean Williams in the depleted-roster year - he got steady minutes at a time in his development when people like Fab or Richard Manning were riding pine.

I bet Diagne can do that and more (shooting included) on a healthier frame. But I'm seeing Boeheim get more conservative by leaps and bounds as he gets older. My hunch is that the young guy will show some nice things in November, get blasted for defensive lapses (or his teammates' lapses), and get buried on the bench. Then as a junior he'll show the same incredible moves, score in double-figures, and jordoo and a small group of others will say "SEE? He's been an obvious talent all along!"

We've seen this movie once or twice before. I'd love to see the young bigs get a chance right away, but that opportunity isn't usually there in the Syracuse seniority system.

usually appreciate what you bring, OM, but... are you counting down the hours/minutes until JB is gone? From alot of your posts, you do not seem to enjoy SU basketball due to the head coach. :noidea:

 

[OttoMets]

Coleman is a huge question mark, to be sure. By the time SU begins playing real games, it will be nearly 2 full years since he has played in a competitive environment. We certainly have to cross our fingers on that, because we do have unknowns behind him. Indeed, given his history, the 5 spot is a complete unknown.

And the 4 spot is not much better. TR was adequate and showed flashes of being much more, but we don't have anything proven behind him. He might have to go 35 minutes a game, 40 on a lot of nights.

We have only 1 proven rotation player at the 4-5, everything else is a question mark. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is just not being realistic.

I disagree with you on Cooney. He won't have to play 37 minutes a night. I wouldn't be surprised to see the guard minutes end up roughly 30-30-20 between TC, MR & KJ. Gibinije's versatility is the key here. His ability to run the offense means that we can play both MR & TC together - G running the point on offense but the back line of the zone on defense, Cooney & Mal on the wings on offense & up top on the other end. And with a second shooter on the floor, presumably Cooney will benefit both from fewer minutes and more open looks.

Presumably.


The best question about next year might be who is not going to play. Assuming JB goes his typical 7.5 (8 if you prefer) rotation, then only 2 guys will be out. If DC comes back strong and Diagne is what we hope, then Obokoh is going to be one of them. I would think Howard will be the other, unless KJ really does not improve and he is forced into the rotation.

Presumably indeed. I agree that Cooney doesn't have to play 37 a night (just like Triche didn't have to in 2013, when Cooney should have been taking sharing more of his minutes), but history suggests that he will anyway. Scoop's senior year aside, I just can't think of many times when Boeheim benched the senior in favor of a young guy (especially a freshman).

Regarding Roberson, I'm very high on him, but perhaps jordoo could help fill us in on the depth question:

I may not be able to convince you otherwise but I encourage you to check Diange out. Lots of highlights and stats. He's done very well in general against higher rated taller bigs that he has competed against. He's still going to be a freshman and you simply cannot argue that his is a little undersized height wise for a center but no more so than Obokoh and Diange has tree trunks for legs and will not be moved off his spot. I'm not saying he will come in and be a scoring option but his offensive base is good enough that at some point in his college career I expect him to be exactly that. Again if you picture freshman Rick Jackson who played a little 4 but mostly backed up Arinze at the 5 I think that's a good low threshold for Diange as a freshman. Jackson struggled at times and got JB all agitated with his defense but he mixed it up inside, blocked some shots, competed on the boards and was a capable garbage man around the rim.

Can Diagne back up the 4? It's an easier defensive assignment than the center position.

 

[iommi]

Can Diagne back up the 4? It's an easier defensive assignment than the center position.[/QUOTE]

Yes, he's very mobile, even with his very thick frame. He also has a huge wingspan and closes out well.

 

[OttoMets]

To your points, I think Cooney will play more than 30mpg but I don't think he'll be in the high 30's or 40 for any game. I'm also of the unpopular opinion that he's earned the PT. He's not as poor of a shooter as some think and he's going to thrive if we can get other shooting threats (Malachi and a more assertive Gbinije) on the court with him. Speaking of Malachi, if he can pick up the defense quickly, Boeheim will give him double digit minutes in conference play. He's practically the only backup for SG and SF, unless Lydon shows up ready to go from day 1 (which he might).

Diagne is my favorite player in the incoming class. He's going to be a big time contributor here eventually and his physical maturity will help tremendously in terms of getting PT as a frosh. If Coleman can't go at all, I fully expect Diagne will be able give us productive minutes at the 5. As it is, he might really impress people as Roberson's backup at the 4. He's really light on his feet and has above average ball-handling for a player his size.

I certainly agree that Cooney's a better shooter than some think. He hasn't helped himself, but he's also been stuck in a bad position for almost two seasons.

I'm intrigued by the idea of some of these freshmen as subs at multiple positions - while some guys are going to play a lot, there are going to be minutes available for some of the freshmen. If Joseph gets a break, someone's going to sub at the 1 or the 3. And some center reserve is going to see the court.

 

[moqui]

Can Diagne back up the 4? It's an easier defensive assignment than the center position.

It's only easier if you have the lateral quickness to help out in the lane and still close out on wing shooters. The game is a lot faster than the one they have played in the high school, prep and AAU ranks.

but the larger point is that we should all know by now that freshmen are rarely as good as we want them to be, no matter how highly they are ranked nor how good their highlight reels look. That's what makes guys like Ennis so special.

AFAIAC, all freshman are question marks until proven otherwise against quality competition. I haven't always felt this way, but bitter experience has taught me.

 

[jordoo]

I'm holding my breath on Cooney's minutes. As others have pointed out he absolutely shouldn't have to play more than say 30/32 minutes. BUT as has also been pointed out JB seems to love playing Cooney as much as possible. I really think an Ideal amount of minutes for Cooney is somewhere in the high 20's to low30's. He is a shooter so he does need some rhythm but that doesn't mean you can't play him in 7 or 8 minute stretches and sit him for 4 or 5.

 

[OttoMets]

usually appreciate what you bring, OM, but... are you counting down the hours/minutes until JB is gone? From alot of your posts, you do not seem to enjoy SU basketball due to the head coach. :noidea:

No, most of the reason we all enjoy the program is because of the head coach. I do think a couple of his weaknesses have been more pronounced in the last two seasons, though (more 2014, since this year was probably irredeemable).

The offense has just been so horrific and player personnel is clearly not our only problem. I'm not wishing Boeheim away by any means, but his consistency has become rather frustrating in that his approach has struck me as incompatible with some of our recent personnel.

Also, my predictions about roster management in this thread are much more historically-based observations than they are a judgment of the merits of that management. Right or wrong (I'll leave that judgment for other threads), Boeheim's known for the seniority system.

 

[Brooky03]

I certainly agree that Cooney's a better shooter than some think. He hasn't helped himself, but he's also been stuck in a bad position for almost two seasons.

I'm intrigued by the idea of some of these freshmen as subs at multiple positions - while some guys are going to play a lot, there are going to be minutes available for some of the freshmen. If Joseph gets a break, someone's going to sub at the 1 or the 3. And some center reserve is going to see the court.

I think KJ will be much improved from last season. But I'm in love with a Gbinije, Cooney, Malachi, Roberson, Diagne lineup. This could really break a game wide open if we get out in transition (which I've missed over the past 2-3 years).

 

[Brooky03]

Jackson never really got fit (at least not "high D-I, my career rests on my work ethic" fit) until he was a senior, but he did surprise me as a freshman - I thought he'd be a bruising undersized center in the Pittsburgh mold (or like our own Eric Williams), but he showed some decent offensive skill right off the bat. He never developed great touch with his shot, but he clearly grew up learning how to play the game. Good vision and passing and OK footwork, even as a young guy. He was really lucky to come in with Sean Williams in the depleted-roster year - he got steady minutes at a time in his development when people like Fab or Richard Manning were riding pine.

I bet Diagne can do that and more (shooting included) on a healthier frame. But I'm seeing Boeheim get more conservative by leaps and bounds as he gets older. My hunch is that the young guy will show some nice things in November, get blasted for defensive lapses (or his teammates' lapses), and get buried on the bench. Then as a junior he'll show the same incredible moves, score in double-figures, and jordoo and a small group of others will say "SEE? He's been an obvious talent all along!"

We've seen this movie once or twice before. I'd love to see the young bigs get a chance right away, but that opportunity isn't usually there in the Syracuse seniority system.

What is working in Diagne's favor is the lack of seniority ahead of him. Coleman's minutes will be limited whether or not he has more injury problems. There's no use pushing him for 30mpg and tempting fate. So that opens the door at center because Obokoh barely has any seniority and it's still up in the air how productive he can be.

This is not to mention his natural position, PF. Roberson is certainly capable of playing big minutes which could take away from Diagne's PT but, once Roberson has to sit, Diange is I think literally the only other option. Unless Boeheim wants to go small and play another freshman, Richardson, he'll have no choice but to put Diagne in the game.

 

[OttoMets]

What is working in Diagne's favor is the lack of seniority ahead of him. Coleman's minutes will be limited whether or not he has more injury problems. There's no use pushing him for 30mpg and tempting fate. So that opens the door at center because Obokoh barely has any seniority and it's still up in the air how productive he can be.

This is not to mention his natural position, PF. Roberson is certainly capable of playing big minutes which could take away from Diagne's PT but, once Roberson has to sit, Diange is I think literally the only other option. Unless Boeheim wants to go small and play another freshman, Richardson, he'll have no choice but to put Diagne in the game.

I like this; it's really a win-win: Roberson (probably our best player) is backed up by the kid many are calling the gem of this class. Makes me excited for basketball. season.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think KJ will be much improved from last season. But I'm in love with a Gbinije, Cooney, Malachi, Roberson, Diagne lineup. This could really break a game wide open if we get out in transition (which I've missed over the past 2-3 years).

Or it's a team with average at best ballhandling which we can ill afford to see these days especially with no Rak to dump the ball down low to for almost guaranteed buckets. If Malachi comes in with a better handle than advertised then I'll breathe a little easier.

 

[reedny]

To your points, I think Cooney will play more than 30mpg but I don't think he'll be in the high 30's or 40 for any game. I'm also of the unpopular opinion that he's earned the PT. He's not as poor of a shooter as some think and he's going to thrive if we can get other shooting threats (Malachi and a more assertive Gbinije) on the court with him. Speaking of Malachi, if he can pick up the defense quickly, Boeheim will give him double digit minutes in conference play. He's practically the only backup for SG and SF, unless Lydon shows up ready to go from day 1 (which he might).

Diagne is my favorite player in the incoming class. He's going to be a big time contributor here eventually and his physical maturity will help tremendously in terms of getting PT as a frosh. If Coleman can't go at all, I fully expect Diagne will be able give us productive minutes at the 5. As it is, he might really impress people as Roberson's backup at the 4. He's really light on his feet and has above average ball-handling for a player his size.

I like your enthusiasm. Jordoo seems to think Diagne's going to surprise, also. And that may be the case, but I doubt it will be at Center. If in fact he's 6'8, unless he's a pogo stick like Otis Hill, I don't see how we can expect a player that size to anchor the zone. In this day and age, the bigs we face in the ACC will have a 3-4 inch height advantage. That will pose problems at both ends, even if he's "long".

More likely, Diagne will back up TR at the 4. And this is intriguing, since he seems to have an established mid-range, rather than a low block, game. Also, having him on the other side of the basket from DC would give us some badly-needed beef on the boards.

Don't sleep on Lydon either. At 6'9 and mobile, he might also get some time behind MG .. another spot where we're thin.

 

[iommi]

I like your enthusiasm. Jordoo seems to think Diagne's going to surprise, also. And that may be the case, but I doubt it will be at Center. If in fact he's 6'8, unless he's a pogo stick like Otis Hill, I don't see how we can expect a player that size to anchor the zone. In this day and age, the bigs we face in the ACC have a 3-4 inch height advantage. That will pose problems at both ends, even if he's "long". More likely, Diagne will back up TR at the 4. And he could help us, since he seems to a established mid-range, rather than a low block, game. Also, having him on the other side of the basket from DC would give us some badly-needed beef on the boards.

If Diagne is not at center when Coleman is not in the game, then who is going to play center...Obokoh????