Why can't we run a real offense?

HoustonCuse

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Yep, people talk on here like Boeheim has an answer and plan to address the problems. What evidence is there for that over the past half decade? The rest is wishful thinking.
I just look at this way: we have one of the best coaches to ever roam the college sidelines. Period. He has over 1000 wins, he's done it all and seen it all. He pays attention to college, NBA, and International ball and so while he is old, he is up on the state of the art.

So I have zero explanation of why he has absolutely no offense. This offense requires an individual heroic effort for every single basket. We don't have the players for that. Duke might. UK might. One or two other schools might, but we don't. JB has to see this. If I can see it, he sees it. He also must know that the shooting percentage of a guy trying to create a 3 point shot flat-footed from a dribble closely guarded is about 10% and the same guy could probably hit 40-60% when an offense creates a squared up clean shot for him off a pass. He MUST know all this right??

Our players aren't good enough? Hell no that is not it. They are not good enough for what he gives them to work, but they are plenty good enough to run a simplistic basic offense that could at least generate, say 10 - 12 quality shots per game. Hilariously, that would a massive improvement, 10 - 12 quality shots.

I'm mind blown with disappointment to know we're looking at yet another season like this.
 

NKR1978

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I just look at this way: we have one of the best coaches to ever roam the college sidelines. Period. He has over 1000 wins, he's done it all and seen it all. He pays attention to college, NBA, and International ball and so while he is old, he is up on the state of the art.

So I have zero explanation of why he has absolutely no offense. This offense requires an individual heroic effort for every single basket. We don't have the players for that. Duke might. UK might. One or two other schools might, but we don't. JB has to see this. If I can see it, he sees it. He also must know that the shooting percentage of a guy trying to create a 3 point shot flat-footed from a dribble closely guarded is about 10% and the same guy could probably hit 40-60% when an offense creates a squared up clean shot for him off a pass. He MUST know all this right??

Our players aren't good enough? Hell no that is not it. They are not good enough for what he gives them to work, but they are plenty good enough to run a simplistic basic offense that could at least generate, say 10 - 12 quality shots per game. Hilariously, that would a massive improvement, 10 - 12 quality shots.

I'm mind blown with disappointment to know we're looking at yet another season like this.
We've been putrid to below average on offense, with "bad" being our standard, for 5+ seasons. We aren't developing anyone. We aren't fixing problems. JB is an all time great, but he might not be a top 75 coach in all of college basketball right now.
 

phil77

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We don't have a "real" PG because we don't run an offensive system or set proper screens. If we set proper screens at the top then pick and roll would be our offense but because we never set a proper screen we don't allow our guards to get into the paint. It is bad coaching. Not the players it is the coaching.

And in college blaming the players is blaming the coach as they are the ones bringing in the players.
 

OrangePA

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I am so sick of the hero ball one man offense.

Why can't we pass the ball. Work inside. Drive the lane. Play the post game. Instead, one dribble and a contested 3. Nearly every time.

Are the players incapable? Are the coaches incapable? I feel like this has been a hallmark of the JB offense but it has gotten much much worse in recent years.

34 points? Sigh.

The ball never gets tired!!!

Move the friggin ball!

And set picks and screens till it hurts!!

That is all.
 

Alsacs

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To run an offense you need a PG who can penetrate and then a big who can be a threat in the post.
Nobody wants Shaq or Tim Duncan those bigs aren’t in basketball anymore.
However Eric Paschal and Daniel Ochefu were very important on Villanova’s good teams.

These are the type of bigs who excel in college basketball. Arinze Onuaku and Rick Jackson were these type of bigs for us.
 

phil77

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To run an offense you need a PG who can penetrate and then a big who can be a threat in the post.
Nobody wants Shaq or Tim Duncan those bigs aren’t in basketball anymore.
However Eric Paschal and Daniel Ochefu were very important on Villanova’s good teams.

These are the type of bigs who excel in college basketball. Arinze Onuaku and Rick Jackson were these type of bigs for us.
To penetrate you have to set proper screens. Unless you want to play 1 on 1 hero ball from our PG every time down. Our bigs do not set proper screens at the top either because that is what they are coached to do or they just don't want to.
 

OttoinGrotto

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I just look at this way: we have one of the best coaches to ever roam the college sidelines. Period. He has over 1000 wins, he's done it all and seen it all. He pays attention to college, NBA, and International ball and so while he is old, he is up on the state of the art.

So I have zero explanation of why he has absolutely no offense. This offense requires an individual heroic effort for every single basket. We don't have the players for that. Duke might. UK might. One or two other schools might, but we don't. JB has to see this. If I can see it, he sees it. He also must know that the shooting percentage of a guy trying to create a 3 point shot flat-footed from a dribble closely guarded is about 10% and the same guy could probably hit 40-60% when an offense creates a squared up clean shot for him off a pass. He MUST know all this right??

Our players aren't good enough? Hell no that is not it. They are not good enough for what he gives them to work, but they are plenty good enough to run a simplistic basic offense that could at least generate, say 10 - 12 quality shots per game. Hilariously, that would a massive improvement, 10 - 12 quality shots.

I'm mind blown with disappointment to know we're looking at yet another season like this.
This is all very well said.
 

OrangePA

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I just look at this way: we have one of the best coaches to ever roam the college sidelines. Period. He has over 1000 wins, he's done it all and seen it all. He pays attention to college, NBA, and International ball and so while he is old, he is up on the state of the art.

So I have zero explanation of why he has absolutely no offense. This offense requires an individual heroic effort for every single basket. We don't have the players for that. Duke might. UK might. One or two other schools might, but we don't. JB has to see this. If I can see it, he sees it. He also must know that the shooting percentage of a guy trying to create a 3 point shot flat-footed from a dribble closely guarded is about 10% and the same guy could probably hit 40-60% when an offense creates a squared up clean shot for him off a pass. He MUST know all this right??

Our players aren't good enough? Hell no that is not it. They are not good enough for what he gives them to work, but they are plenty good enough to run a simplistic basic offense that could at least generate, say 10 - 12 quality shots per game. Hilariously, that would a massive improvement, 10 - 12 quality shots.

I'm mind blown with disappointment to know we're looking at yet another season like this.

In my opinion, no team at the college level can win consistently with clear outs and one-on-one play.
 

Alsacs

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In my opinion, no team at the college level can win consistently with clear outs and one-on-one play.
Duke has with its NBA OADs but that is because they have recruited top 3 NBA draft picks the last 6 years.

We don't recruit those type of talents but our Final Four team in 2013 won with clearouts for CJ Fair, one on one play by MCW and 3 point shooting from James Southerland accompanied by the best zone defense this team has ever had.
 

Cusefan0307

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Duke has with its NBA OADs but that is because they have recruited top 3 NBA draft picks the last 6 years.

We don't recruit those type of talents but our Final Four team in 2013 won with clearouts for CJ Fair, one on one play by MCW and 3 point shooting from James Southerland accompanied by the best zone defense this team has ever had.
Triche carried us for a good portion of that season, especially when Southerland was suspended.
 

OrangePA

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Duke has with its NBA OADs but that is because they have recruited top 3 NBA draft picks the last 6 years.

We don't recruit those type of talents but our Final Four team in 2013 won with clearouts for CJ Fair, one on one play by MCW and 3 point shooting from James Southerland accompanied by the best zone defense this team has ever had.
I guess I would have to review the film.

Can Zion Williamson take on a guy like Sidibe?

Of course.

But to win consistently at any level, you need to share the ball, move without the ball and go body on body to create good shots.
 
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Alsacs

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I guess I would have to review the film.

Can Zion Williamson take on a guy like Sidibe?

Of course.

But to win consistently at any level, you need to you need to share the ball, move without the ball and go body on body to create good shots.
Duke only scored in its elite 8 game against Michigan State when Zion or Barrett beat their guy off the dribble ans scored or they made a play after beating their guy.
They didn't have any shooting around them and thus teams packed the paint but nobody in the college game could stay in front of Zion when he got his first step.

If Duke had Buddy Boeheim type shooters around Zion/Barrett they win the NC. Coach K constructed his roster awfully with all the NBA talent he has had.

In the NBA players like Giannis/LeBron are surrounded on the perimeter with players like Kyle Korver/James Jones/Kris Middleton who can drill open 3's so they can drive the ball to the rim.
 

OrangePA

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Duke only scored in its elite 8 game against Michigan State when Zion or Barrett beat their guy off the dribble ans scored or they made a play after beating their guy.
They didn't have any shooting around them and thus teams packed the paint but nobody in the college game could stay in front of Zion when he got his first step.

If Duke had Buddy Boeheim type shooters around Zion/Barrett they win the NC. Coach K constructed his roster awfully with all the NBA talent he has had.

In the NBA players like Giannis/LeBron are surrounded on the perimeter with players like Kyle Korver/James Jones/Kris Middleton who can drill open 3's so they can drive the ball to the rim.

Like I said, a generational player like a Zion or a Lebron can use their physical dominance to score - and to help create shots.

I agree with that.

But, in the long run - on a consistent basis - the teams that play the game the right way win more often than teams that rely on a dominant player getting the ball on a clear out.

And, of course, we do not have a generational player within a time zone of our program right now so our discussion is pretty much moot.
 

OrangeDW

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If we just put our 4 best defenders in and packed it in and let Virginia take outside jumpers all game, and had one guy not play defense and just cherry pick all game long - would we have been better off? How would Virginia have countered that? By playing 4 on 4 on offense and keeping someone back? How much would that screw them up?

Yes, it’s come to this. I AM this bored with watching these games, and our offense IS this broken.
 

Alsacs

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If we just put our 4 best defenders in and packed it in and let Virginia take outside jumpers all game, and had one guy not play defense and just cherry pick all game long - would we have been better off? How would Virginia have countered that? By playing 4 on 4 on offense and keeping someone back? How much would that screw them up?

Yes, it’s come to this. I AM this bored with watching these games, and our offense IS this broken.
I swear to god on my Life I said we should think about doing in this second half of the game but my girlfriend who was reading a book thought I was nuts when I said it she barely follows sports though.
 

007

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My favorite play was Girard driving to the hoop and doing a wrap around back to the perimeter. Great play but Girard assumed the perimeter player would read his drive and slide to a place in anticipation where he would have the best passing angle... our guy just stood there. Not sure why Girard did a my bad there... that’s on the perimeter guy for not moving.
This is a great observation. Girard did exactly what you should do when you beat your man off the dribble and 2 guys rotate over to provide help. Just about every team at this level would have a player from the weak side cutting to the basket to fill the void left by the D rotating. Or, they would have a shooter sliding to the weak side corner for an uncontested 3. You can not defend the weak side corner on dribble penetration from the opposite wing because of the way help side rotations are made in just about every defense, including the zone.

Girard's instincts were correct. The problem is no one else on the floor seemed to recognize what they needed to do in this situation. This may sound subtle, but it's not. And there are multiple examples of this kind of thing every game.
 

Sherman20

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I just look at this way: we have one of the best coaches to ever roam the college sidelines. Period. He has over 1000 wins, he's done it all and seen it all. He pays attention to college, NBA, and International ball and so while he is old, he is up on the state of the art.

So I have zero explanation of why he has absolutely no offense. This offense requires an individual heroic effort for every single basket. We don't have the players for that. Duke might. UK might. One or two other schools might, but we don't. JB has to see this. If I can see it, he sees it. He also must know that the shooting percentage of a guy trying to create a 3 point shot flat-footed from a dribble closely guarded is about 10% and the same guy could probably hit 40-60% when an offense creates a squared up clean shot for him off a pass. He MUST know all this right??

Our players aren't good enough? Hell no that is not it. They are not good enough for what he gives them to work, but they are plenty good enough to run a simplistic basic offense that could at least generate, say 10 - 12 quality shots per game. Hilariously, that would a massive improvement, 10 - 12 quality shots.

I'm mind blown with disappointment to know we're looking at yet another season like this.
Excellent post. Rec rec rec.
 

kcsu

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JB doesn't,hasn't, wont,never will change the way he coaches. Period end of story. Since Hop was pushed out things have steadily deteriorated. Hopefully
I think that we bottomed out last season. From this point forward until JB retires we will remain a team that wins more than it loses, plays the zone, plays an ISO offense and occasionally wins a big game. Nothing is ever going to change cause
Jimmy be Jimmy so strap in enjoy the slide and hope that Buddy graduates on time.
 

orange79

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JB doesn't,hasn't, wont,never will change the way he coaches. Period end of story. Since Hop was pushed out things have steadily deteriorated. Hopefully
I think that we bottomed out last season. From this point forward until JB retires we will remain a team that wins more than it loses, plays the zone, plays an ISO offense and occasionally wins a big game. Nothing is ever going to change cause
Jimmy be Jimmy so strap in enjoy the slide and hope that Buddy graduates on time.
Stop pushing the "Hop was pushed out" BS.

It. Is. Not. True.
 

CousCuse

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Never in past seasons would Syracuse open against such a strong opponent. Almost every year the team will have many new players that have to be tried and see how they fit and play together, and this team has more than most other years. How do people think the offense was supposed to get on track against a defensive juggernaut like the Cavs? I'm sure the young players had it in their head that, "hey, these are the defending national champions". That alone threw a variable into the mix that can take the focus away from the task at hand. They will come back strong, always have.
 

OrangeMojo

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Would love to know What they talk about in film sessions after games the last 5 years. “OK- we need to win with defense, so the 4 of you without the ball need to be outside the arc - as soon as that guy chucks up his contested 3 you all need to sprint down so you’re ready on the defensive end. Just need those shots to fall boys.”
 

OrangeMojo

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Never in past seasons would Syracuse open against such a strong opponent. Almost every year the team will have many new players that have to be tried and see how they fit and play together, and this team has more than most other years. How do people think the offense was supposed to get on track against a defensive juggernaut like the Cavs? I'm sure the young players had it in their head that, "hey, these are the defending national champions". That alone threw a variable into the mix that can take the focus away from the task at hand. They will come back strong, always have.
I don’t know - maybe they could’ve gone on a trip to Europe and played a bunch of games over there to get a head start over their competition?

This wasn’t their first game together - that excuse is nonsense.
 

Alsacs

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Never in past seasons would Syracuse open against such a strong opponent. Almost every year the team will have many new players that have to be tried and see how they fit and play together, and this team has more than most other years. How do people think the offense was supposed to get on track against a defensive juggernaut like the Cavs? I'm sure the young players had it in their head that, "hey, these are the defending national champions". That alone threw a variable into the mix that can take the focus away from the task at hand. They will come back strong, always have.
We played Memphis in MSG in 2002 and San Diego State on the way ship in 2012.
We won one and lost one but both of those teams are on the level of the Virginia team we played Wednesday.
Our offense didn’t look pathetic in those games and in one of them the game was played outside on a windy ship deck.

We looked like a bunch of pickup basketball players on offense who never played before in their lives as everyone went 1 on 1 and just chucked up shots.

Coach Mac and UMass would have done better amirite?
 

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