You guys dreaming about new OC's and new offensive systems

[Millhouse]

Agreed, he misses them on a consistent basis, but hey he has a strong arm!!! I can hit a golf ball 3oo yards doesn't mean I am a good golfer!

curt b hits his pitching wedges 300

 

[IthacaBarrel]

curt b hits his pitching wedges 300

Golf technology is ridiculous, I was 10 times stronger 10 years ago then I am now yet I am hitting a golf ball further than ever

 

[billsin01]

fwiw sunseri had 1 more td than nassib did against AQ schools last year

don't get fooled by new england fcs teams

I think this only underscores my point -- they had relatively similar years statistically with Nassib nursing an injury and throwing to injured van chew with a porous OL. Baldwin alone means a few more TDs for any QB, IMO

I'm not trying to say Nassib is free from criticism (he does seem to have an advanced degree from the RJ Anderson School of Deep Ball Throwing), but I've seen Sunseri a bunch and I don't think Pitt is any better off. Maybe worse.

 

[billsin01]

Tend to agree. Did anyone watch Geno Smith throw the ball against us last year? Children have looked better. Suddenly he's an efficient 400 yard per game passer.

If everything is broken (system isn't great, playcalling isn't making a lot of sense, RB can't hold the ball, OL collectively isn't very good, WRs have no YAC ability, WRs can't get off bump, QB isn't accurate enough), it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to focus on the QB part. Leach and his disciples are showing that they make QBs, QBs don't make them.

Yeah, I think even the more critical Nassib folks tend to agree he is somewhere approaching average as a QB and I think a majority tend to agree that this system -- at least the way it is currently being run, even if by necessity in Marrone's mind -- leaves something to be desired. I also believe -- to varying degrees -- everyone is hoping an upgrade in personnel is necessary and coming soon. Given all those factors, Nassib is of far less of a concern to me than the system.

 

[RF2044]

Tend to agree. Did anyone watch Geno Smith throw the ball against us last year? Children have looked better. Suddenly he's an efficient 400 yard per game passer.

If everything is broken (system isn't great, playcalling isn't making a lot of sense, RB can't hold the ball, OL collectively isn't very good, WRs have no YAC ability, WRs can't get off bump, QB isn't accurate enough), it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to focus on the QB part. Leach and his disciples are showing that they make QBs, QBs don't make them.

Completely agree. Nassib behind a functional line that gives him time to throw would be more than adequate and trend towards above average.

Hell, Sunseri was an absolute bum last season leading up to our game, but when we played Pitt and generated no pass rush to pressure him, he had time to sit back there and pick us a part. That didn't suddenly make him Kellen Moore.

The recruiting part of this thread is interesting. Clearly, we need to overhaul the offensive talent in the pipeline in the same fashion as what Marrone and staff have done on the defensive side of the ball. Some of the shifting of the more athletic players over to defense was done out of necessity, when the roster overall was depleted. That's beginning to level out, so will we see the same talent / athleticism infusion on the offensive side of the ball?

 

[Millhouse]

Yeah, I think even the more critical Nassib folks tend to agree he is somewhere approaching average as a QB.

...

 

[Upstate]

Big deal what the ranking of big east qbs are.

but fwiw i'd take collaros, sunseri, and smith over nassib. jury is out on louisville, i don't know what they're doing. after than you're left with a bunch of unwatchable scrubs (the uconn student body, dodd, us, bj)

You can ask, but I don't think Louisville even knows what Louisville is doing.

 

[billsin01]

...

No? I mean, even taking out URI, he's completed well over 60%, thrown 6 TDs vs. 3 INTs and averaged about 200 ypg. Those aren't somewhat average numbers for a team that may be the definition of average ( or below) across the field on offense?

 

[Chip]

bad qbs in bad systems should still be able to complete a deep pass from time to time when guys happen to be wide open

So if we get a QB who can throw deep we shouldn't have to overhaul the offense. Because we would score more points. It would be a lot easier to not have to change the offense since we've spent 2 year installing it.

 

[Millhouse]

So if we get a QB who can throw deep we shouldn't have to overhaul the offense. Because we would score more points. It would be a lot easier to not have to change the offense since we've spent 2 year installing it.

that's the lowest of the low hanging fruit. next would be to bag the clusterbunch. baby steps

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

why don't you care about offensive rankings? do you have a better way of comparing offenses?

Just because I am more concerned with what we are doing here, and less so with how many points everyone else is putting up. If we start playing some fun, cohesive football, the fans will be happy, the players will be happy, and our offensive rankings will go up. All great, I'm just saying I don't care what that number might be, as long as we are back to moving forward and showing some swagger.

 

[SU2NASA]

Trick plays, every down. Each one trickier than the one before it.

 

[Fjoinkay]

What's interesting to me is that the offense this year is scoring about the same amount of points per game as it did in 2009 and 2010 and the same goes for yards per game. I do believe we could see improvement for a number of reasons, but I don't have time to go into that right now.

Nassib is a solid college QB. I'd take him over Sunseri. I was shocked when AA at ESPN named Sunseri in her preseason top 25 players. Her rationale was mainly that Todd Graham runs such an effective system that Sunseri would have a great season. That may pan out, but Sunseri struggles mightily and he's had the benefit of playing with a lot of very talented and healthy skill position players.

I'm encouraged because Nassib appears to be working hard on his issues, and I expect him to continue to improve. I think the offensive line has improved. The blitzing pressure is what seems to bother Nassib. Any kind of breakdown whether it's picking up a blitz or a receiver being bumped at the line of scrimmage seems to throw Nassib off. A good mantra for a QB: expect the unexpected and when it happens find the advantage and take it (if the unexpected doesn't happen then take the advantage). Sometimes it seems like Nassib has an idea of how wants the play to be in his mind and when it doesn't transpire he forces things.

Nassib struggles to throw screens imo. Maybe that's why spends a lot of time looking down field at covered receivers and misses Harris or Bailey. The clock in his head should be ticking because checking down to a back involves timing too. And if you check down to the back and the back is covered then you move around to buy time and allow the receivers or back to make a play to get open. I think he struggles when rolling out. He seems to enjoy the open space when he's out there because he often takes too long imo to make decisions. He often throws to the receiver when the receiver or the TE has already run out of room on the sideline. I've seen several receivers and the RBs shaking their heads. What is truly frustrating, however is that Nassib can and sometimes does do all of these things very well. He just needs to grow into consistency. I feel like he's on the verge of another breakthrough, and hopefully he will continue to have more breakthroughs because he has a lot of potential.

 

[Scooch]

Just because I am more concerned with what we are doing here, and less so with how many points everyone else is putting up. If we start playing some fun, cohesive football, the fans will be happy, the players will be happy, and our offensive rankings will go up. All great, I'm just saying I don't care what that number might be, as long as we are back to moving forward and showing some swagger.

Umm, I don't know how to say this in a non-snarky way, but you do realize that if other teams are scoring more points that means we lose. A lot.

Losing isn't fun.

How the heck do we "move forward" without looking at things like yardage and points to determine that?!

 

[SUFan44]

I love how a lot of people here think Nassib is an "average college QB".

He has averaged 5.85 yards/attempt against the BIG EAST and big six conference opponents. That's including the K-State game. If you take that out, it goes down to 5.53 yards/attempt. That's pretty atrocious. Especially in a wide-open type college game. That would rank him in the lower third of D1 QB's.

As it stands now, even with the Toledo/Rhode Island games included this year, he's chasing Johnny McEntee of UConn who is completing just 50.4% of his passes.

So despite completing 40 more passes than McEntee, in 29 more attempts, he is averaging LESS yards-per-pass than he is.

Reminds of me of Trent Edwards with the Bills. Captain Checkdown.

You can have an extravagant completion percentage, yet still be less effective than a player who takes more chances and completes more deep balls.

 

[billsin01]

I love how a lot of people here think Nassib is an "average college QB".

He has averaged 5.85 yards/attempt against the BIG EAST and big six conference opponents. That's including the K-State game. If you take that out, it goes down to 5.53 yards/attempt. That's pretty atrocious. Especially in a wide-open type college game. That would rank him in the lower third of D1 QB's.

Trent Edwards drove me insane. But I'll counter a couple of your points on Nassib:

1. His yards per attempt are to some degree based on the offense and, to some degree, based on who he is throwing to. I like Lemon but he's an underneath guy who's tough but not necessarily shifty. Chew is a threat deep but doesn't make a lot of plays with the ball in his hands. Provo had a real nice catch and run vs. Toledo but doesn't do it often. So this is an offense full of 3-step drops and short routes -- perhaps by necessity and perhaps partially due to Nassib's long-ball struggles. But it's going to be hard to put up big ypa numbers if you're rarely taking shots and don't have a Woods or Page on the field.

2. Many of those numbers are from last year. He's at 7.01 ypa this year, 6.53 if you take URI out of the equation (though since they won by a TD I'm not sure it's fair to strip him of that game). Collaros, who we'd all kill for, is at 7.78 ypa, so significantly better but not otherworldly considering he also plays with an RB averaging 6.6 ypc.

I don't know, I just think Nassib has improved and should be considered somewhere around average. I also think he has the potential to be better than average. Of all the concerns I have, he ranks pretty low on the list.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Umm, I don't know how to say this in a non-snarky way, but you do realize that if other teams are scoring more points that means we lose. A lot.

Losing isn't fun.

How the heck do we "move forward" without looking at things like yardage and points to determine that?!

I don't really get what is so difficult. I don't care what the NUMBER is that gets associated with where we rank. We do not play 95% of those other teams, so when it comes to Syracuse, I could care less what they are doing, cause it doesn't have anything to do with the points our defense is giving up. Nor do I see Marrone running up scores, even when we do reach the next level. Just too many teams and too much variation to get much out of a ranking like that... All I need to do is watch a game to know our offense sucks, is there really any great epiphanies to be gained by seeing a rank too?

 

[Millhouse]

Umm, I don't know how to say this in a non-snarky way, but you do realize that if other teams are scoring more points that means we lose. A lot.

Losing isn't fun.

How the heck do we "move forward" without looking at things like yardage and points to determine that?!

compare to old syracuse teams!

 

[GoSU96]

I love how a lot of people here think Nassib is an "average college QB".

He has averaged 5.85 yards/attempt against the BIG EAST and big six conference opponents. That's including the K-State game. If you take that out, it goes down to 5.53 yards/attempt. That's pretty atrocious. Especially in a wide-open type college game. That would rank him in the lower third of D1 QB's.

As it stands now, even with the Toledo/Rhode Island games included this year, he's chasing Johnny McEntee of UConn who is completing just 50.4% of his passes.

So despite completing 40 more passes than McEntee, in 29 more attempts, he is averaging LESS yards-per-pass than he is.

Reminds of me of Trent Edwards with the Bills. Captain Checkdown.

You can have an extravagant completion percentage, yet still be less effective than a player who takes more chances and completes more deep balls.

Captain checkdown is 44th in passes between 10 and 20 yds against BCS teams, 18th in passes between 20 and 30, in all games, 66th and 22nd at each range. Last year he was in the 80's in both.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I want to convert red zone opportunities into TD's. I want to start out a game with a statement play and continue with that momentum throughout the game. Unfortunately, even with the big defensive Td to start last game we faded into repetitive mediocre playcalling..

 

[Millhouse]

Captain checkdown is 44th in passes between 10 and 20 yds against BCS teams, 18th in passes between 20 and 30, in all games, 66th and 22nd at each range. Last year he was in the 80's in both.

no skepticism at all, just curious where you got those numbers.

it's not as bad as the trent edwards years. nassib's not dumping off that much, they're able to hit the slants past the LOS, he's done fine at that. and nassib's not terrified to throw the ball to someone who's being covered like edwards was.

 

[suloyalfan]

I don't want to speak for others, but I'm guessing it's probably because ranking 99th in yards/game and 87th in PPG is realllly ******* boring.

The difference between ranking where we are and a "Top 50" offense in yards and points is doing better on ONE drive per game! It's taking one of the 3 and outs from our 20 yard line and turning it into an 80 yard drive for a Touchdown (actually 80 more yards per game only gets us to 56th). Do we really think we're that far off from that happening? I can think of multiple drives in each of the first 5 games this season where drives were stopped by turnovers, dropped passes, and penalties. Converting on those drives instead of stalling or being stopped is the difference in where we are to where we all want to be.

For the record, we had the following 3 and out drives so far this season:

- 6 vs. Wake Forest (out of 14 possessions, with 5 scoring drives), a couple of these drives stalled on dropped 3rd down passes, still scored 36 points, but only 299 yards
- 3 vs. Rhode Island (out of 10 possessions, with 3 scoring drives), plus a 3 play drive that ended in an interception, 21 points, 354 yards
- 3 vs. USC (out of 10 possessions, with 3 scoring drives) and 1 drive of 1 play that we fumbled, 17 points, 331 yards
- 3 vs. Toledo (out of 12 possessions, with 7 scoring drives) and 1 drive of 4 plays that we fumbled on first down, managed 33 points, 366 yards
- 4 vs. Rutgers (out of 15 Offensive possessions, only 2 scoring drives including FG in OT), plus 1 drive with a fumble on the first play, plus 1 drive with an interception on the first play, plus a 3 play drive starting deep in Rutgers territory that ended with a missed FG, plus a 4 play drive that ended with an interception at the goal line, plus a 5 play drive that ended in a blocked FG, plus a drive that ended in a fumble in OT, only 16 points, 295 yards

For me, taking a look at the details of each game it's clear that we're not far off from "Top 50" numbers... maybe it's lack of a big time playmaker. Maybe it's lack of execution. Maybe it's conservative playcalling when we start out deep (inside our own 35 yard line) in our end of the field (this is when the vast majority of our 3 and outs occur)...

I think it's a combination of these 3 factors that are holding back the offense. We all saw the spark that PTG gave the offense when he came in on 3rd down vs. Toledo. That's the kind of difference maker that we need in the offense to pick up the 1st down and keep drives going. I think that the conservative playcalling when we're in our end of the field hampers the offensive production in each game because it's a lost opportunity to roll up yards and a "wasted" possession losing the chance to score points. Lastly, the players need to execute. Penalties, dropped passes, and fumbles have killed alot of drives this year so far. Those are wasted opportunities to score and run up more yardage. I know that the goal is not to have more yardage, but it's important to keep moving the ball to increase time of possession, improve field position, and establish a rhythm on offense.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think now that the defense is playing better Nassib will be more relaxed and may take more chances with longer passes, not always the proverbial bomb but 20-30 yard passes and less checkdowns.

I w/suloyal, a little rhythm on offense is needed and those 3 and outs really kill that. Obviously you need to produce and avoid the 3 and outs and to me it's been a missed assignment, dropped pass, a jump offsides that have hurt and these things have to be fixed.

I think SU is trying to have 3rd and manageable too often instead of just going after the 1st down on second down. Again, it's never just one thing but a combo of circumstances.

 

[Millhouse]

The difference between ranking where we are and a "Top 50" offense in yards and points is doing better on ONE drive per game! It's taking one of the 3 and outs from our 20 yard line and turning it into an 80 yard drive for a Touchdown (actually 80 more yards per game only gets us to 56th). Do we really think we're that far off from that happening? I can think of multiple drives in each of the first 5 games this season where drives were stopped by turnovers, dropped passes, and penalties. Converting on those drives instead of stalling or being stopped is the difference in where we are to where we all want to be.

For the record, we had the following 3 and out drives so far this season:

- 6 vs. Wake Forest (out of 14 possessions, with 5 scoring drives), a couple of these drives stalled on dropped 3rd down passes, still scored 36 points, but only 299 yards
- 3 vs. Rhode Island (out of 10 possessions, with 3 scoring drives), plus a 3 play drive that ended in an interception, 21 points, 354 yards
- 3 vs. USC (out of 10 possessions, with 3 scoring drives) and 1 drive of 1 play that we fumbled, 17 points, 331 yards
- 3 vs. Toledo (out of 12 possessions, with 7 scoring drives) and 1 drive of 4 plays that we fumbled on first down, managed 33 points, 366 yards
- 4 vs. Rutgers (out of 15 Offensive possessions, only 2 scoring drives including FG in OT), plus 1 drive with a fumble on the first play, plus 1 drive with an interception on the first play, plus a 3 play drive starting deep in Rutgers territory that ended with a missed FG, plus a 4 play drive that ended with an interception at the goal line, plus a 5 play drive that ended in a blocked FG, plus a drive that ended in a fumble in OT, only 16 points, 295 yards

For me, taking a look at the details of each game it's clear that we're not far off from "Top 50" numbers... maybe it's lack of a big time playmaker. Maybe it's lack of execution. Maybe it's conservative playcalling when we start out deep (inside our own 35 yard line) in our end of the field (this is when the vast majority of our 3 and outs occur)...

I think it's a combination of these 3 factors that are holding back the offense. We all saw the spark that PTG gave the offense when he came in on 3rd down vs. Toledo. That's the kind of difference maker that we need in the offense to pick up the 1st down and keep drives going. I think that the conservative playcalling when we're in our end of the field hampers the offensive production in each game because it's a lost opportunity to roll up yards and a "wasted" possession losing the chance to score points. Lastly, the players need to execute. Penalties, dropped passes, and fumbles have killed alot of drives this year so far. Those are wasted opportunities to score and run up more yardage. I know that the goal is not to have more yardage, but it's important to keep moving the ball to increase time of possession, improve field position, and establish a rhythm on offense.

any bad team could say that. bad offenses have more 3 and outs. good offenses have less.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

any bad team could say that. bad offenses have more 3 and outs. good offenses have less.

agree, if we were that close to being average we would be ranked 65TH in offense, geeze not that tough to comprehend