You Want To Keep The Stars in College?

[mantonio]

I wouldn't be worried about the zone too much longer. I think Hoppy will change a few things when he takes over. You might see a combination of defenses & hybrids.

The smart coaches know how to adjust to the times, & I am sure Hoppy knows what he must do if he wants the best players. JB knows too, & don't think he won't make the necessary changes if need be...

 

[CaptainJ]

I'm open to these new ideas, that is what America used to be about. I like Mantonio's mention of things being more incentive driven than punishment driven as well, which seems to bring out the best in people for the right reasons.

As for the zone, I'm not an expert on how recruits would feel about it. What I do know is, if you are the #1 school for something year in and year out, it sets you apart in the minds of people and I think that would be helpful in getting some recruits at least. With all the money networks and apparel companies make from college sports(in other words from the work of the athletes), it wouldn't bother me to see them paid. It also wouldn't bother me to see some of it spread around to lower tuition costs or provide a lot more scholarships for regular students. In a time when money is tight, it seems this mega stream could be put to better use than what it currently is. That's my opinion, anyhow.

 

[SBU72]

I understand all the misgivings, but we have to come up with new ideas, or it will continue to be like this. I think it is better to give more incentives than punishments, because, after all, this is America.

I think the NBA would prefer a system that closely resembles the farm clubs, & that is what College basketball has become at the major level.

A good partnership between the NCAA & NBA would be better for the fans of college & pro sports.

read long ago that kids left early to get to free agency earlier. It use to be that it wasn't necessarily the first contract money that kids were looking towards but the second/free agent contract. I have maintained for years that the NBA should change their rules about first contract. (if they haven't already). It use to be that the first contract was for 4 or 5 years. Something like that. After which a player became a free agent where the real money is made. If the NBA would lengthen the first contract to 7 or 8 years then subtract a year for every year of developement (ie college) a kid had,it would negate some of the rush to being pro. A freshmen gets a 7 year contract. A soph a 6 yr, jr 5 year and sr a 4 yr. Also part of the problem in the NBA is that that small market teams who get the high draft picks would get the kids young and un-developed. They would spend millions to develop the kids only to see them leave at the first opportuinty of free agency. Extending the first contrat would give these teams a chance to recoup their development costs. IF the first contract are now 7 to 10 years long, then this all makes no sense, so forget I said anything.

 

[Alsacs]

Mantonio I believe you make an interesting discussion, maybe the NCAA should allow the players to own their own Intellectual property rights. So that if Nike sells 129.99 dollar #11 Platinum Syracuse jerseys that the kid gets a portion of the profit the NCAA, Syracuse, and Nike are making off those jerseys. If the NCAA let kids own their IP rights kids would be getting money from the video games sold, jerseys sold, and could hold organized autograph sessions and make money for themselves. Instead, the NCAA owns their IP rights and kids only get an education.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I wouldn't be worried about the zone too much longer. I think Hoppy will change a few things when he takes over. You might see a combination of defenses & hybrids.

The smart coaches know how to adjust to the times, & I am sure Hoppy knows what he must do if he wants the best players. JB knows too, & don't think he won't make the necessary changes if need be...

Off-topic and I know this argument gets lots of airtime. Boeheim has always said that the zone defense works at the college level and also it works because it helped bridge the talent gap between Syracuse and the big basketball schools (Kentucky, UNC, Duke, UCLA, Kansas, etc.). However that seems to be changing and Syracuse gets plenty of top talent. True/false? If you run out a team with 5 or 6 McDonald's AAs on there who are all talented enough to play man, why stick with zone exclusively?

 

[Fly Rodder]

As to the topic, I think the baseball model is the way to go - combined with the D league. In baseball, a talent like Gerrit Cole can be drafted out of high school, negotiate with the team that drafts him, and if the money isn't right, he can refuse to sign and go to college for three years and reenter the draft after increasing his value. It works for some players and can also backfire (injuries and failure to reach potential can decrease a player's value), but it gives a lot of control to the player. The one and done rule is silly and doesn't do anything but increase shady recruiting.

 

[pfister1]

It's not perfect, but I think the best solution would be the baseball rule. A kid can go pro straight out of highschool or choose to go to college. If he chooses college he has to stay for three years. However, as someone else already pointed out, any change would have to be driven by the NBA.

I really think if you want to change the college game, then the impetus for change needs to be on the college system, not on limiting or restricting the options of the players playing in that system. King Otto proposed in a different thread that scholarships be treated as four year commitments. A team gets 13 scholarships and once awarded, it cannot be awarded again for four years, whether the player it was originally awarded to is using it in a particular year or not.

I don't know that it would work, but I think the idea heads in the right direction. It places the onus on the schools to get to the result they are trying to achieve by shaping their rosters in a manner that reflects their goal. Not trying to get to the result by telling the kids they can't chase their dream. Under that type of system colleges presumably wouldn't give their scholarships to one and done players, because the risk of having a one done and a diminished roster after he leaves would exceed the benefit from the one year you had him. Best example might be a guy like Donte Greene. Did we get enough from having him for one year that it would be worth it to not be able to award his scholarship for the next three years after he left. Obviously you can't always predict who will leave early.....JB probably would not have predicted Donte would only be a one year player or that Jonny would only be here two, so the idea might need some refinement.

 

[Eric15]

Basketball needs to go to Baseball rules, either get drafted out of HS or college for 3 years.

Not sure how I feel about that. The idea of forcing someone to stay in college when they have an employable skill that they want to make a living off of seems un-American to me.

 

[MCuse44]

I feel like kentucky is on the verge of finally ruining college basketball. if they get the top 5 guys every year whos going to beat them?

 

[All4SU]

Yes. Yes. Yes. I will continue advocating for NCAA changes until these very talented athletes get a piece of the multi-multi-million dollar deals that schools and networks enjoy.

And I will continue to believe that colleges should emphasize student athletes, and kids who just want to play professional basketball should do so.

 

[Oakland]

Yes. Yes. Yes. I will continue advocating for NCAA changes until these very talented athletes get a piece of the multi-multi-million dollar deals that schools and networks enjoy.
---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?s0fiuz

Wouldn't be more appropriate to advocate that the NBA allow these players the right to work? I'm surprised there hasn't been a court challenge to the NBA's self serving rules.

I see no reason for colleges to pay players - the players choose to go to school for free and get high level training in their career choice (basketball). If they want to make money, they can play BB around the world or they can get a regular job.

 

[Scooch]

Why do we want to keep the "stars" in college basketball?

So you can selfishly see better quality games?

The "problem" is that basketball is a sport where 18 year olds can compete at the highest level with 28 year olds and 38 year olds. That's rarely the case in baseball and hockey, and never the case in football.

There is no way around this "problem".

 

[SmilinBob]

So let me get this straight, because coaches like Cal skirt the system to the nth degree, we should punish the players...yep that sounds like the perfect NCAA type of a move.

 

[mantonio]

Off-topic and I know this argument gets lots of airtime. Boeheim has always said that the zone defense works at the college level and also it works because it helped bridge the talent gap between Syracuse and the big basketball schools (Kentucky, UNC, Duke, UCLA, Kansas, etc.). However that seems to be changing and Syracuse gets plenty of top talent. True/false? If you run out a team with 5 or 6 McDonald's AAs on there who are all talented enough to play man, why stick with zone exclusively?

Now that Syracuse is finally getting the top prospects annually, the defense will morph into something befitting this new paradigm. However, we must realize it took a long time to get here.

I still believe the zone can work in key situations with the top talent, especially JB's trapping style. We can't completely abandon it, because it is a nice weapon in the arsenal.

 

[All4SU]

So let me get this straight, because coaches like Cal skirt the system to the nth degree, we should punish the players...yep that sounds like the perfect NCAA type of a move.

Who is advocating "punishing" the players? And how?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Then, of course, you would have to set an age limit for those who forego college to enter the draft, to encourage kids to go to school & play ball.If you tell a person they have to meet all these requirements as a student to be drafted, most of them will simply go right into the NBA after high school.

Yes. Either by age, or by number of years past HS graduation.

I'm sitting next to the head of the NBA Players Association... i guess i should be discussing this with him...

 

[mantonio]

And I will continue to believe that colleges should emphasize student athletes, and kids who just want to play professional basketball should do so.

The problem with your theory is, there is no money in that.

These schools, the conferences, the media, & many other peripheral enterprises make their living from the top quality of talent that plays at the college level. If the NCAA decides to alienate the pro level talent, college basketball is officially dead. You might as well watch Division 2 basketball on local TV, because that is essentially the low level of interest that shall be garnered by the viewing public.

You must also remember, many other school programs rely on that money, including academic interests & research projects.

The NBA has all the leverage here, regardless of what the NCAA decides to do. In the best interest of the bigger picture, we MUST generate a partnership with the NBA that will benefit everyone, or it's more than just the Universities that will lose.

 

[sufandu]

I really think if you want to change the college game, then the impetus for change needs to be on the college system, not on limiting or restricting the options of the players playing in that system. King Otto proposed in a different thread that scholarships be treated as four year commitments. A team gets 13 scholarships and once awarded, it cannot be awarded again for four years, whether the player it was originally awarded to is using it in a particular year or not.

I don't know that it would work, but I think the idea heads in the right direction. It places the onus on the schools to get to the result they are trying to achieve by shaping their rosters in a manner that reflects their goal. Not trying to get to the result by telling the kids they can't chase their dream. Under that type of system colleges presumably wouldn't give their scholarships to one and done players, because the risk of having a one done and a diminished roster after he leaves would exceed the benefit from the one year you had him. Best example might be a guy like Donte Greene. Did we get enough from having him for one year that it would be worth it to not be able to award his scholarship for the next three years after he left. Obviously you can't always predict who will leave early.....JB probably would not have predicted Donte would only be a one year player or that Jonny would only be here two, so the idea might need some refinement.

I don't think you can place responsibility on a school to predict when a player may want to leave for whatever reason. What happens if a kid decides to transfer because he is unhappy with playing time, when a kid decides to not do his homework, when he decides to slap his girlfriend around and gets expelled? Does the school then pay what would amount to a penalty?

Any changes would have to be on the NBA's end. The pro game is definitely a better one when players enter having already matured and learned to play a team game with/against other players of similar skill level. The exceptions may be the Lebrons or Dwight Howards, but they are few and far between and I could make an argument that they would've benefited from some college coaching too. Colleges can't make kids stay, but an employer has the right to require whatever credential or prior work experience they choose. When the NBA decides it's in their best interest, and can convince the player's association to go along with it, a change will be made.

 

[All4SU]

The problem with your theory is, there is no money in that.

These schools, the conferences, the media, & many other peripheral enterprises make their living from the top quality of talent that plays at the college level. If the NCAA decides to alienate the pro level talent, college basketball is officially dead. You might as well watch Division 2 basketball on local TV, because that is essentially the low level of interest that shall be garnered by the viewing public.

You must also remember, many other school programs rely on that money, including academic interests & research projects.

The NBA has all the leverage here, regardless of what the NCAA decides to do. In the best interest of the bigger picture, we MUST generate a partnership with the NBA that will benefit everyone, or it's more than just the Universities that will lose.

I don't really agree. If you took everyone in the NBADL and added 20 - 30 kids straight from High School, there are still thousands of kids currently playing D1 basketball who would be fun to watch. And frankly, I go and cheer for the name on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. If the game is competitive, fans will watch.

Over time, it would be my hope that there would be a positive effect on the kids coming up through high school. If we devalue the education, why would kids have any perception of value for it. If we reinforce the value of a college education, maybe, just maybe, and increasing number of kids will realize that they are never going to make it in the NBA. But they stand a really good chance of being an accountant, or an engineer, or a educator, or a banker. Doesn't that provide a better service to our young people and the communities from which they come? Throwing money at one-and-dones or kids who have no interest in an education simply devalues an education and perpetuates an attitude that basketball is more important than a career and the ability to earn a good living.

 

[orangenirvana]

From the perspective of a free market capitalist though, it really goes against the grain of most things in our society. If they are good enough and teams want their services, its sort of BS to not allow them to be drafted just so college coaches and fans will be satisfied.

That's not true at all. The free market capitalist would tell you that the association can provide any measures it wants to improve its bottom line.

If allowing 18 year olds into the league hurts the quality of play and in turn hurts income, then they have every right to require an age limit. It's smart business.

 

[Jaka]

i think people need to realize that the talented kids always should have the right to go pro. It comes with the territory for programs (like SU) who want the top talent. Another things people fail to realize is that for most of the kids on our team, basketball is their career. Not necessarily the NBA, but oversees and coaching. Think of how much the fans on this board expect these kids to win. We lost three games this year and you would have thought sometimes that we weren't gonna make the NCAA's. It takes A LOT of practice in order to compete for a national title. You don't want the best kids? Then have fun becoming Buffalo. We want them to be "student athletes", well how easy is it for them to take a serious course of study and put the practice in to compete for a national title? Lord knows how some of our fans scrutinize the players and coaches for not making more final fours. We don't expect normal students to be in top shape and be skilled in a sport. So why should we demand the same from our players?

Bottom line, there is a big difference between "BCS level schools" and other Div 1 schools. There needs to be a split for basketball and football because there has been cheating as long as its been important to win. Allowing the players to make money would get rid of the "fear of rule breaking" that the NCAA creates. Especially when most of the violations are ridiculous. There is enough revenue generated by the players to allow them to make money and for them to still be educated. But as for as keeping kids in the college game, maybe allowing them to earn money would keep some kids around, but there would still be a lot who want to go to the NBA. Just simply put yourself in their shoes, for 32 kids an NBA contract is life changing money for them and their family. We as fans shouldn't want to hold them from that just because it makes our team worse for the next year. Like I said it comes with wanting to be a top level program. The good thing is we can reload the next year.

 

[SmilinBob]

Who is advocating "punishing" the players? And how?

By making them stay in college for X amount of years while paypalcal abuses the system and does as he pleases. It's up to the NBA regarding who they deem qualified to join their league just like any company/corporation.