Zach Arnett new Syracuse DC...or not.

[ForCuseSake]

Honest question though...First let me start by saying I appreciate your response. For the record I have only worked for 2 different companies in my 20 year career and only left the first one because they got bought out, split up, and re-purposed. I was with that company for almost 15 years and about to finish my 6th at my current company so I'm not a job jumper or renegotiater. But I am very curious...

You give a guy an offer, he accepts, gives notice at his company, they counter for a decent amount($2k is not worth burning bridges imo but I'm interested in the philosophy) like $5k. Would you rather:

1. Have the person ignore the counter altogether because they already accepted your offer

2. Blow you off and just accept the counter.

3. Re-negotiate

Those are really the only 3 options I see. That being said I see major issues with all 3.

1. Great you got your guy for what you offered and you have a committed loyal employee. Or do you? How long will that employee being truly engaged if he starts under the premise he is worth more somewhere else?

2. You now have to start over. I've been on search committees. It took us 6 months to find a qualified candidate. Sometimes starting over is not an option.

3. All the stuff you said

I'd evaluate your scenario the same if I were the hiring manager or the candidate accepting an offer. First as the candidate...

If I accept an offer to work someplace else that means I want to leave my current employer. Doesn't matter the reason (more money, better title/role, closer commute, new industry etc.), I've decided I'm out.

So when I give notice, I decline any notion of "what can we do to keep you?" because I've decided to leave. My logic is simple and ties to what JOC44 posted up-thread. The dynamic changes when a direct report goes to their boss and successfully leverages them. Many people have no problem with this, but I've never considered it worth the risk if I'm truly happy at that organization.

If I think I'm underpaid, and want to seek a pay raise with my current employer, I speak directly to my boss. If I have a good boss, and the organization values me, we'll work out a plan for me to achieve the compensation level I want (assuming they believe I haven't fully earned it yet).

I don't try to use someone else's opinion of my value to influence the opinion of my current employer. There are a million reasons why another company would value me more (or less) than my current employer. My salary could be at the maximum cost my company is willing to spend for the collection of tasks I perform. That would make deciding to leave a simpler decision if I was desperate for a pay increase.

As a hiring manager...

If someone accepts an offer to join my team, they've decided the opportunity I presented to them (i.e. salary, role, location, company, etc.) is superior to their current job.

If they attempt to squeeze me for a pay bump ($5k, $10k, whatever), because they've used my offer to leverage their current employer, it tells me their primary motivation is money and they're likely a bad fit for the team.

And none of my TL;DR post applies to football coaches because they're in a completely different universe. Or other fields that rely primarily on agents to source talent.

 

[UBSU]

he won't be, the BC game was the back breaker. Dino was more than patient with Ward but after that game, he clearly realized that we had to go in a different direction, as in a new scheme and a new voice from outside. We showed with Arnett that we will spend, you would think if a bigger name like Shoop or Barnett isn't interested, then a guy like Clayton White, David Reeves etc, would jump at a P5 job with what would be a huge pay raise(obviously not paying them $900K, however)

I understand Shoop has already (committed) signed to go to Michigan with Harbaugh. White has a lot of ACC experience formerly playing and coaching at NC State several years ago when their defense was much better. You would have to wait for either he or Reeves until after NLI. Although Barnett seems currently unemployed from FSU and available now.

 

[blizz]

I'd evaluate your scenario the same if I were the hiring manager or the candidate accepting an offer. First as the candidate...

If I accept an offer to work someplace else that means I want to leave my current employer. Doesn't matter the reason (more money, better title/role, closer commute, new industry etc.), I've decided I'm out.

So when I give notice, I decline any notion of "what can we do to keep you?" because I've decided to leave. My logic is simple and ties to what JOC44 posted up-thread. The dynamic changes when a direct report goes to their boss and successfully leverages them. Many people have no problem with this, but I've never considered it worth the risk if I'm truly happy at that organization.

If I think I'm underpaid, and want to seek a pay raise with my current employer, I speak directly to my boss. If I have a good boss, and the organization values me, we'll work out a plan for me to achieve the compensation level I want (assuming they believe I haven't fully earned it yet).

I don't try to use someone else's opinion of my value to influence the opinion of my current employer. There are a million reasons why another company would value me more (or less) than my current employer. My salary could be at the maximum cost my company is willing to spend for the collection of tasks I perform. That would make deciding to leave a simpler decision if I was desperate for a pay increase.

As a hiring manager...

If someone accepts an offer to join my team, they've decided the opportunity I presented to them (i.e. salary, role, location, company, etc.) is superior to their current job.

If they attempt to squeeze me for a pay bump ($5k, $10k, whatever), because they've used my offer to leverage their current employer, it tells me their primary motivation is money and they're likely a bad fit for the team.

And none of my TL;DR post applies to football coaches because they're in a completely different universe. Or other fields that rely primarily on agents to source talent.

"What's money really worth if it ain't love?" - JDRO

 

[orangecuse]

They can play that game, but SU can also say we have 3 other guys we're considering at a given price. We might also be the last open P5 DC job. Negotiations go both ways.

Of course negotiations goes both ways. However, as with all negotiations, whomever has the better/best leverage has the advantage and won't have to make as many concessions. In regards to your "we might also be the last open P5 DC job" sentiment, if that was one of your main arguments in the negotiations, and as a result were to hedge on that, perhaps you don't get the "best" candidate, not to mention any slight the person may feel that may have come from it, and bolts the minute a better offer comes his way.

 

[Pyle]

I'd evaluate your scenario the same if I were the hiring manager or the candidate accepting an offer. First as the candidate...

If I accept an offer to work someplace else that means I want to leave my current employer. Doesn't matter the reason (more money, better title/role, closer commute, new industry etc.), I've decided I'm out.

So when I give notice, I decline any notion of "what can we do to keep you?" because I've decided to leave. My logic is simple and ties to what JOC44 posted up-thread. The dynamic changes when a direct report goes to their boss and successfully leverages them. Many people have no problem with this, but I've never considered it worth the risk if I'm truly happy at that organization.

If I think I'm underpaid, and want to seek a pay raise with my current employer, I speak directly to my boss. If I have a good boss, and the organization values me, we'll work out a plan for me to achieve the compensation level I want (assuming they believe I haven't fully earned it yet).

I don't try to use someone else's opinion of my value to influence the opinion of my current employer. There are a million reasons why another company would value me more (or less) than my current employer. My salary could be at the maximum cost my company is willing to spend for the collection of tasks I perform. That would make deciding to leave a simpler decision if I was desperate for a pay increase.

As a hiring manager...

If someone accepts an offer to join my team, they've decided the opportunity I presented to them (i.e. salary, role, location, company, etc.) is superior to their current job.

If they attempt to squeeze me for a pay bump ($5k, $10k, whatever), because they've used my offer to leverage their current employer, it tells me their primary motivation is money and they're likely a bad fit for the team.

And none of my TL;DR post applies to football coaches because they're in a completely different universe. Or other fields that rely primarily on agents to source talent.

Appreciate the response. I'm glad you mention the part about this not applying to coaches. I see all the time on here in regards to both coaches/players having every right to get what they can while they can. And while I do appreciate alot of what you said, let's not forget that corporate America isn't as far from the field as we think. I've lost two jobs for no other reason than some exec made some bad choices and now the money's gone and so is my job. It had zero to do with my job performance. All this talk of loyalty and integrity don't mean squat when the Excel sheet isn't black. So maybe an employee should get all he can while he can. One bad decision could end your job and you have nothing to do with it.

 

[ForCuseSake]

Appreciate the response. I'm glad you mention the part about this not applying to coaches. I see all the time on here in regards to both coaches/players having every right to get what they can while they can. And while I do appreciate alot of what you said, let's not forget that corporate America isn't as far from the field as we think. I've lost two jobs for no other reason than some exec made some bad choices and now the money's gone and so is my job. It had zero to do with my job performance. All this talk of loyalty and integrity don't mean squat when the Excel sheet isn't black. So maybe an employee should get all he can while he can. One bad decision could end your job and you have nothing to do with it.

You'll notice "loyalty" wasn't mentioned in my evaluation or in any of my posts on this topic.

I agree with your points about decisions made by people in corporate America costing others (like us) their jobs.

I also lost a job due to an M&A transaction (stuff happens) and it removed loyalty from the equation for me.

People should "get all they can," I try to use the approach I described above as I think it doesn't burn bridges because the world is round.

 

[wfschrec]

I wouldn't be surprised if their better than private schools CNY. I live in Knoxville. Tennessee public schools aren't all that good. The rich people don't care. Since they pay low land taxes and no school tax, they have no problem paying tuition for well funded private schools that pay teachers better than the public schools, so they have no problem drawing good teachers. You don't see it in CNY because the public schools are so good private schools are unnecessary unless you have a religious reason.

The graduation rate in Rochester NY was at one point 43% in the public system ... there are a lot of myths around school systems across the country.

 

[orangezen]

how about going legacy and get Tom Coughlin for a year or two doesnt need the $ and has nothing to prove do it for alma mater

 

[FrancoPizza]

When are we going to update the OP to show that he’s no longer an SU commitment?

 

[Whitey23]

how about going legacy and get Tom Coughlin for a year or two doesnt need the $ and has nothing to prove do it for alma mater

Jaguars owner Shad Khan fired executive vice president of football operations Tom Coughlin on Wednesday, two days after the NFL Players Association warned players of potentially signing with the franchise because of excessive fines and player grievances.

Coughlin out as Jags' executive VP of football ops

Jaguars owner Shad Khan said his decision to fire Tom Coughlin immediately instead of after the season came "in recent days."

www.espn.com

Tom Coughlin's tyrannical approach has completely destroyed the Jaguars and it's time to move on

Tom Coughlin inherited a promising roster and needed only two years to ruin it and draw the ire of the NFLPA.

ftw.usatoday.com

 

[orangenauburn]

Coughlin out as Jags' executive VP of football ops

Jaguars owner Shad Khan said his decision to fire Tom Coughlin immediately instead of after the season came "in recent days."

www.espn.com

Tom Coughlin's tyrannical approach has completely destroyed the Jaguars and it's time to move on

Tom Coughlin inherited a promising roster and needed only two years to ruin it and draw the ire of the NFLPA.

ftw.usatoday.com

He'd fly like a fart in church with today's players

 

[AZOrange]

Honest question though...First let me start by saying I appreciate your response. For the record I have only worked for 2 different companies in my 20 year career and only left the first one because they got bought out, split up, and re-purposed. I was with that company for almost 15 years and about to finish my 6th at my current company so I'm not a job jumper or renegotiater. But I am very curious...

You give a guy an offer, he accepts, gives notice at his company, they counter for a decent amount($2k is not worth burning bridges imo but I'm interested in the philosophy) like $5k. Would you rather:

1. Have the person ignore the counter altogether because they already accepted your offer

2. Blow you off and just accept the counter.

3. Re-negotiate

Those are really the only 3 options I see. That being said I see major issues with all 3.

1. Great you got your guy for what you offered and you have a committed loyal employee. Or do you? How long will that employee being truly engaged if he starts under the premise he is worth more somewhere else?

2. You now have to start over. I've been on search committees. It took us 6 months to find a qualified candidate. Sometimes starting over is not an option.

3. All the stuff you said

I do this for a living so here are my random two cents. If a company counters my person I’ve offered, I’m not offended, I’m flattered. I made the right call. Now, I ask them to do me a solid and get the last counter. If I do and they don’t accept, bridge burned. If not, I’m not offended. I know the talent meter is dialed in and will find someone else. Any management level person that approaches this as personal and not business should not be in that position imo.

 

[AZOrange]

I'd evaluate your scenario the same if I were the hiring manager or the candidate accepting an offer. First as the candidate...

If I accept an offer to work someplace else that means I want to leave my current employer. Doesn't matter the reason (more money, better title/role, closer commute, new industry etc.), I've decided I'm out.

So when I give notice, I decline any notion of "what can we do to keep you?" because I've decided to leave. My logic is simple and ties to what JOC44 posted up-thread. The dynamic changes when a direct report goes to their boss and successfully leverages them. Many people have no problem with this, but I've never considered it worth the risk if I'm truly happy at that organization.

If I think I'm underpaid, and want to seek a pay raise with my current employer, I speak directly to my boss. If I have a good boss, and the organization values me, we'll work out a plan for me to achieve the compensation level I want (assuming they believe I haven't fully earned it yet).

I don't try to use someone else's opinion of my value to influence the opinion of my current employer. There are a million reasons why another company would value me more (or less) than my current employer. My salary could be at the maximum cost my company is willing to spend for the collection of tasks I perform. That would make deciding to leave a simpler decision if I was desperate for a pay increase.

As a hiring manager...

If someone accepts an offer to join my team, they've decided the opportunity I presented to them (i.e. salary, role, location, company, etc.) is superior to their current job.

If they attempt to squeeze me for a pay bump ($5k, $10k, whatever), because they've used my offer to leverage their current employer, it tells me their primary motivation is money and they're likely a bad fit for the team.

And none of my TL;DR post applies to football coaches because they're in a completely different universe. Or other fields that rely primarily on agents to source talent.

I disagree with this but could be industry specific stuff. Big companies underpay/value employees all the time until they’re tested. So if I’m unhappy with comp and I leave and they counter (which nearly always happens), everybody in their right mind should listen. If you’re an employee this should be about you and your family, not the best interest of employer.

heck if my offers aren’t countered then I worry...but again likely different industries.

 

[sufandu]

The graduation rate in Rochester NY was at one point 43% in the public system ... there are a lot of myths around school systems across the country.

The point was that wealthy people in CNY don't send their kids to private school as much as wealthy people in southern states because they can afford to live in locations with good well funded public schools. The post I responded too errantly thought private schools in the south are similar to those in CNY. That isn't the case. There are more large well funded private schools that wealthy people have access to.

If you follow the conversation, someone suggested Arnett was missing out on things like quality schools and housing by choosing to live in a poor state like Mississippi. I was pointing out that his wealth makes that a false assumption. He'll have access to things most Mississippi residents don't.

 

[ForCuseSake]

I disagree with this but could be industry specific stuff. Big companies underpay/value employees all the time until they’re tested. So if I’m unhappy with comp and I leave and they counter (which nearly always happens), everybody in their right mind should listen. If you’re an employee this should be about you and your family, not the best interest of employer.

heck if my offers aren’t countered then I worry...but again likely different industries.

Thanks for your posts on this subject.

I agree that job markets have different dynamics that make things I might not try, or agree with, commonplace.

If someone believes their best way to get a pay raise from their current employer is with an offer from another firm then have that conversation before accepting the opportunity to leave.

Maybe this is quibbling over semantics, but telling your current employer you have a competing offer and are considering leaving is different than accepting that offer first and entertaining a counter from your current organization.

To me, accepting an offer first and seeking counters from one (or both) sides says you don’t negotiate in good faith and intend to sell out to the highest bidder.

Again, this could be standard operating procedure in job markets where talent is in high demand (P5 defensive coordinators).

My last thought on this is it’s increasingly acceptable to switch jobs more frequently than it used to be. So why risk sullying a relationship, just leave.

And if your decision to leave turns out to be a mistake, (happened to me a few years back) then pound the pavement for a new offer.

 

[DownTheField]

The point was that wealthy people in CNY don't send their kids to private school as much as wealthy people in southern states because they can afford to live in locations with good well funded public schools. The post I responded too errantly thought private schools in the south are similar to those in CNY. That isn't the case. There are more large well funded private schools that wealthy people have access to.

If you follow the conversation, someone suggested Arnett was missing out on things like quality schools and housing by choosing to live in a poor state like Mississippi. I was pointing out that his wealth makes that a false assumption. He'll have access to things most Mississippi residents don't.

I was actually curious about this so I looked into it a few days ago. I’m sure there are some decent private high schools in the south but that doesn’t seem to be the case in Starkville. A quick search shows that there are two private high schools in town.

One is called Starkville Christian School. Based on their mission statement I’m guessing they teach Creationism so I don’t know if you can even consider it a real school. Tuition is $4k a year and the school looks like a big shed. The only sports are softball, baseball, and basketball.

OUR MISSION AND HISTORY

scschool.org

The other private school is called Starkville Academy which looks a little more legit. Their average ACT score is 22 while the Mississippi state average is 18.4. The New York state average is 24.5. The school was created to get around Brown vs Board of Education and the school is basically still segregated. A later court case said that private schools couldn’t discriminate so now the school is 96% white and 1% black.

I think CBA is the best private school in Syracuse and according to wiki their standardized test scores are in the top 15% of all schools in the country.

 

[qdawgg]

The graduation rate in Rochester NY was at one point 43% in the public system ... there are a lot of myths around school systems across the country.

That’s based on the assumption the standards to graduate are identical between NYS schools and southern schools. They aren’t and in some cases they aren’t even close. The socio-economic disparity between states that invest in education and states that don’t is pretty clear. So yes, Rochester and other schools across NYS have poor graduation rates. As a whole, the NYS education system is still one of the best and most rigorous in the country despite some flaws.

 

[sufandu]

I was actually curious about this so I looked into it a few days ago. I’m sure there are some decent private high schools in the south but that doesn’t seem to be the case in Starkville. A quick search shows that there are two private high schools in town.

One is called Starkville Christian School. Based on their mission statement I’m guessing they teach Creationism so I don’t know if you can even consider it a real school. Tuition is $4k a year and the school looks like a big shed. The only sports are softball, baseball, and basketball.

OUR MISSION AND HISTORY

scschool.org

The other private school is called Starkville Academy which looks a little more legit. Their average ACT score is 22 while the Mississippi state average is 18.4. The New York state average is 24.5. The school was created to get around Brown vs Board of Education and the school is basically still segregated. A later court case said that private schools couldn’t discriminate so now the school is 96% white and 1% black.

I think CBA is the best private school in Syracuse and according to wiki their standardized test scores are in the top 15% of all schools in the country.

Interesting. I don't agree that teaching creationism disqualifies a school from being legitimate, but that's a different debate for a different setting. It seems Starkville is behind Knoxville. I'm a little surprised the difference is so significant.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Interesting. I don't agree that teaching creationism disqualifies a school from being legitimate, but that's a different debate for a different setting. It seems Starkville is behind Knoxville. I'm a little surprised the difference is so significant.

If creationism is being taught in a science class, it absolutely delegitimizes that institution. If it's a public school, it's also a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

 

[sufandu]

If creationism is being taught in a science class, it absolutely delegitimizes that institution. If it's a public school, it's also a clear violation of the separation of church and state.

Actually, it's not a violation of separation of church and state anymore than teaching that there is no god would be. Teaching a theory is not the same as a mandated state sponsored requirement to believe a certain religion. People expand separation of church and state to be much more than it is because they are uncomfortable with religion.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Actually, it's not a violation of separation of church and state anymore than teaching that there is no god would be. Teaching a theory is not the same as a mandated state sponsored requirement to believe a certain religion. People expand separation of church and state to be much more than it is because they are uncomfortable with religion.

In a science class it absolutely is. The scientific method doesn't say anything about god whatsoever, which is not the same as saying there is no god. Spirituality plays no role. It's simply not the place... unless of course it is injected there by folks with a vested interest.

 

[sufandu]

In a science class it absolutely is. The scientific method doesn't say anything about god whatsoever, which is not the same as saying there is no god. Spirituality plays no role. It's simply not the place... unless of course it is injected there by folks with a vested interest.

If by the scientific method you mean developing a hypothesis and testing it, Darwinism is no more legitimate than creationism. We cannot recreate the conditions of evolution anymore than we can creation. Assumptions are made prior to believing either theory, often based on the background of the individual. Darwin himself stated he was wrong about his own theory before he died. There are legitimate recognized scientists that present evidence for creationism. Like I said before, this is not a topic for this thread. After this post I won't debate this via the internet any further. I know there is nothing that I can say that will change your opinion and there is nothing you can say that will change mine. I'm here to discuss sports related topics with the occasional brief digression.

 

[orange79]

Let's take the scientific method discussion to the OT forum and keep this thread about Zach Arnett. Thanks!

 

[OrangeinBoston]

If by the scientific method you mean developing a hypothesis and testing it, Darwinism is no more legitimate than creationism. We cannot recreate the conditions of evolution anymore than we can creation. Assumptions are made prior to believing either theory, often based on the background of the individual. Darwin himself stated he was wrong about his own theory before he died. There are legitimate recognized scientists that present evidence for creationism. Like I said before, this is not a topic for this thread. After this post I won't debate this via the internet any further. I know there is nothing that I can say that will change your opinion and there is nothing you can say that will change mine. I'm here to discuss sports related topics with the occasional brief digression.

What???? What? What? Oh man...

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

If by the scientific method you mean developing a hypothesis and testing it, Darwinism is no more legitimate than creationism. We cannot recreate the conditions of evolution anymore than we can creation. Assumptions are made prior to believing either theory, often based on the background of the individual. Darwin himself stated he was wrong about his own theory before he died. There are legitimate recognized scientists that present evidence for creationism. Like I said before, this is not a topic for this thread. After this post I won't debate this via the internet any further. I know there is nothing that I can say that will change your opinion and there is nothing you can say that will change mine. I'm here to discuss sports related topics with the occasional brief digression.

I'm a science teacher, and there are a lot of misunderstandings in that response. In fact, I actually teach a class aimed at dispelling almost exactly those types of misunderstandings. With respect to Orange79, I'd be happy to take this to OT if you'd like or you can send me a PM.