2023-24 NBA Season | Page 5 | Syracusefan.com

2023-24 NBA Season

Cusefan0307 said:
Typical Boomer!
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Exactly. Makes it tough for Baby Boomers (born same day as Samuel L. Jackson) like little ol’ me.

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OrangeDW said:
8 players in history have made at least 9 All NBA and 9 All Defensive teams, so presumably the best “2 way” players:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Gary Payton

And yes, I broke my “impossible to compare across positions and across eras” rule and ranked them in order. Agree with me, or fight me and lose! (Very loose Gus Fring reference)
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I feel like Kobe was gifted a bunch of those all defensive teams (though granted I guess a lot of them were but I just remember him standing out.

It sure is a hell of a list though. Is it somewhat interesting that no one who you'd consider a small forward appears on the list? Lebron 6x all defense, and I do think he would deserve to be in the conversation. Kawhi also, but he's not going to have the length of career to really make it work.

Though I do like the emphasis on offense, because it seems like a lot of the time the conversation around two way players gravitates to focusing on guys who are more defensive minded, and it's important, but I would still say offense is almost always much more important on an individual level than defense.
 
Knicks411 said:
I feel like Kobe was gifted a bunch of those all defensive teams (though granted I guess a lot of them were but I just remember him standing out.

It sure is a hell of a list though. Is it somewhat interesting that no one who you'd consider a small forward appears on the list? Lebron 6x all defense, and I do think he would deserve to be in the conversation. Kawhi also, but he's not going to have the length of career to really make it work.

Though I do like the emphasis on offense, because it seems like a lot of the time the conversation around two way players gravitates to focusing on guys who are more defensive minded, and it's important, but I would still say offense is almost always much more important on an individual level than defense.
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Kareem made his between when Russell left and Olajuwon came on the scene? He was the most surprising name to me on that list - I think Chris Paul got more gifts than Kobe but I see your point for sure.
 
Knicks411 said:
I feel like Kobe was gifted a bunch of those all defensive teams (though granted I guess a lot of them were but I just remember him standing out.

It sure is a hell of a list though. Is it somewhat interesting that no one who you'd consider a small forward appears on the list? Lebron 6x all defense, and I do think he would deserve to be in the conversation. Kawhi also, but he's not going to have the length of career to really make it work.

Though I do like the emphasis on offense, because it seems like a lot of the time the conversation around two way players gravitates to focusing on guys who are more defensive minded, and it's important, but I would still say offense is almost always much more important on an individual level than defense.
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1) I would put Duncan over Kobe and Hakeem.
2) Kawhi doesn't have 9 and 9, but man when he was healthy, he was a monster. 5 All NBAs and 7 All D teams.
3) Pippen is 7 All NBA and 8 All D.
 
MikeSU02 said:
1) I would put Duncan over Kobe and Hakeem.
2) Kawhi doesn't have 9 and 9, but man when he was healthy, he was a monster. 5 All NBAs and 7 All D teams.
3) Pippen is 7 All NBA and 8 All D.
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Also, has the nickname Scottie "No Tippin'" Pippen.
 
MikeSU02 said:
1) I would put Duncan over Kobe and Hakeem.
2) Kawhi doesn't have 9 and 9, but man when he was healthy, he was a monster. 5 All NBAs and 7 All D teams.
3) Pippen is 7 All NBA and 8 All D.
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Yeah I looked at Kawhi, the peak was just so (relatively) short but at his best he was maybe the single best defensive wing in nba history? The guy would just swallow people up and became a great offensive player as well.

Pippen strikes me as sort of the platonic ideal of what most people consider a great 2 way player. Like a B+/A- offensive player (on a relative scale, he's getting compared to like MJ and Lebron here) and an A+ defensive player.
 
Knicks411 said:
Yeah I looked at Kawhi, the peak was just so (relatively) short but at his best he was maybe the single best defensive wing in nba history? The guy would just swallow people up and became a great offensive player as well.

Pippen strikes me as sort of the platonic ideal of what most people consider a great 2 way player. Like a B+/A- offensive player (on a relative scale, he's getting compared to like MJ and Lebron here) and an A+ defensive player.
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I get what you're saying, and agree with that re: Pippen.
 
Knicks411 said:
Yeah I looked at Kawhi, the peak was just so (relatively) short but at his best he was maybe the single best defensive wing in nba history? The guy would just swallow people up and became a great offensive player as well.

Pippen strikes me as sort of the platonic ideal of what most people consider a great 2 way player. Like a B+/A- offensive player (on a relative scale, he's getting compared to like MJ and Lebron here) and an A+ defensive player.
Expand...

I think, at his peak, Kawhi is the best defensive wing of all time, yes.
 
MikeSU02 said:
1) I would put Duncan over Kobe and Hakeem.
2) Kawhi doesn't have 9 and 9, but man when he was healthy, he was a monster. 5 All NBAs and 7 All D teams.
3) Pippen is 7 All NBA and 8 All D.
Expand...
Spots 3-5 were the toughest to rank for me.

Hakeem vs. Duncan is a matchup I’d love to see if time travel was a thing.
 
OrangeDW said:
Spots 3-5 were the toughest to rank for me.

Hakeem vs. Duncan is a matchup I’d love to see if time travel was a thing.
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Yeah, I'm a huge Duncan fan so I always have him rated high. But I get the Kobe/Hakeem part. There are definitely credible arguments for all of them.

Would be very cool to see Dream vs Duncan.
 
Knicks411 said:
Yeah I looked at Kawhi, the peak was just so (relatively) short but at his best he was maybe the single best defensive wing in nba history? The guy would just swallow people up and became a great offensive player as well.

Pippen strikes me as sort of the platonic ideal of what most people consider a great 2 way player. Like a B+/A- offensive player (on a relative scale, he's getting compared to like MJ and Lebron here) and an A+ defensive player.
Expand...
Heard a guy on NBA Sirius channel the other day - Pippen's legacy totally changes without the phantom foul against the Knicks. Bulls had won 55 games that year, more than they had with MJ up to that time according to this guy. He was at worst the 2nd best player in the league. IF they get by the Knicks that year...

I think his reputation is tarnished because off court he's been ...odd. In his prime he could guard 1-4. Greg Anthony could barely get the ball in the front court when Pippen would pick up full. I love Kawhi but in his prime, Pippen was a tremendous defender - on the ball, off the ball, front court, back court. Tremendous.
 
Newhouser said:
Heard a guy on NBA Sirius channel the other day - Pippen's legacy totally changes without the phantom foul against the Knicks. Bulls had won 55 games that year, more than they had with MJ up to that time according to this guy. He was at worst the 2nd best player in the league. IF they get by the Knicks that year...

I think his reputation is tarnished because off court he's been ...odd. In his prime he could guard 1-4. Greg Anthony could barely get the ball in the front court when Pippen would pick up full. I love Kawhi but in his prime, Pippen was a tremendous defender - on the ball, off the ball, front court, back court. Tremendous.
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His one contract with the Bulls really capped his overall career earnings.

Re Kawhi, I do think he's the best wing defender of all time. I think Pippen is #2.

Back to Pippen, I was told by someone who would know that he wasn't in great financial standing, relative to what someone may expect an ex nba player/all star/commentator to be in, hence why you would see him popping up on everything on top of starting to sell whatever booze brand that was, etc.

I think Bill Simmons has him as a level 4 (out of five levels) and around #30 or #31 in his latest pyramid. I think he has him right behind Wade and ahead of CP3.
 
Pippen was incredible and I think the one full season MJ was gone showed he could have the lead dog on a really good team.
 
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