A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Making the I81 Decision...

[xc84]

I'm actually curious how many people from Pennsylvania actually go to Destiny. I would think the King Of Prussia mall would be closer but I'm to lazy to google map it. All I know is that The tunnel is a dumb idea meant to appease all parties however it's a waste of money in a city like Syracuse. If the city was booming and there were lots of industry's coming in then I might see it. But Syracuse is a city that can't get out of its own way. Opportunities to correct wrongs are wasted because people don't like change. Like others have said, we lack vision and have politicians that are cowards.

Just for argument's sake, let's say I live in PA and want to go to Destiny. It is at least 70 minutes now, right? So how much effect is there if I now need to drive on an at-grade street for 1.4 miles? The rest will remain highway. If I am just driving through, I can drive around the city on a highway. If I want to go to e.g. Destiny, I take the 1.4 miles of at-grade street which takes maybe 3-4 minutes v. 1. If I want to go into downtown, it is easier than now.

 

[sutomcat]

Downtown Syracuse built on a swamp

The area where the armory is now was a swamp. That much is true.

I'd probably look into before wedding myself to an opinion that the engineers who previously evaluated the tunnel option are morons.

They already did and they stated the a tunnel option is too expensive and not feasible.

No, not according to this article.

Not an engineer, but the water table is between 5 and 10 feet from street level in the Almond Street corridor. And bedrock is 200 feet down. And the water is pretty high in salinity content.

It's not near an ocean, but it shares a lot of the same characteristics.

Interesting. Where do you get your information from?

I have seen dozens of excavations in various areas downtown and never seen one where there is water 5 feet from street level. Most were in the Onondaga Creek bedrock valley, unlike where the tunnel is proposed.

Check the map on page 3 of this document to learn more about that.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2000/0139/report.pdf

For a very specific example, there was an excavation at the Weighlock Building in particular that went well below 10 feet that had no water in it. This goes back to when they were doing renovations on the building a long time ago...maybe 20 or 30 years. What about all the tunnels underground downtown connecting the PSB, the Civic Center, the War Memorial, etc? All the buildings with basements in the area? Are they all pumping water out to keep things dry?

 

[shandeezy7]

Just for argument's sake, let's say I live in PA and want to go to Destiny. It is at least 70 minutes now, right? So how much effect is there if I now need to drive on an at-grade street for 1.4 miles? The rest will remain highway. If I am just driving through, I can drive around the city on a highway. If I want to go to e.g. Destiny, I take the 1.4 miles of at-grade street which takes maybe 3-4 minutes v. 1. If I want to go into downtown, it is easier than now.

You still wouldn't need to go on surface level streets even if you were going to the mall. You would just take 481 (re-branded as 81) to 690W and hop back on the old 81 at the current interchange downtown. It would add maybe 5-7 minutes tops for anyone coming from south of the city trying to get to the mall.

 

[OttoMets]

The area where the armory is now was a swamp. That much is true.

No, not according to this article.

Interesting. Where do you get your information from?

I have seen dozens of excavations in various areas downtown and never seen one where there is water 5 feet from street level. Most were in the Onondaga Creek bedrock valley, unlike where the tunnel is proposed.

Check the map on page 3 of this document to learn more about that.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2000/0139/report.pdf

For a very specific example, there was an excavation at the Weighlock Building in particular that went well below 10 feet that had no water in it. This goes back to when they were doing renovations on the building a long time ago...maybe 20 or 30 years. What about all the tunnels underground downtown connecting the PSB, the Civic Center, the War Memorial, etc? All the buildings with basements in the area? Are they all pumping water out to keep things dry?

That's a good question. I know of buildings with pumps, but to the best of my knowledge those State Street tunnels don't have pumps. Some of them have leaks, though.

The numbers I cited come from a work document, but I think it's fairly easy to find documentation for the bedrock depth.

 

[xc84]

You still wouldn't need to go on surface level streets even if you were going to the mall. You would just take 481 (re-branded as 81) to 690W and hop back on the old 81 at the current interchange downtown. It would add maybe 5-7 minutes tops for anyone coming from south of the city trying to get to the mall.

True...either way it's not a big deal. So you go 1.4 miles at-grade for 3-4 minutes or take a slightly longer highway route around the city.

 

[oldpinepoint]

True...either way it's not a big deal. So you go 1.4 miles at-grade for 3-4 minutes or take a slightly longer highway route around the city.

I agree, that's why I don't understand the whole idea of the tunnel

 

[Fly Rodder]

I agree, that's why I don't understand the whole idea of the tunnel

Because it is a chance for politicians to spend other people's money.

Where is the article that points out the difference between the 2014 Access Syracuse tunnel proposal and the new and improved ultra fancy one that makes sense to everyone but the residents of Syracuse and the DOT engineers? The first one (2014) was shot down because it failed to meet most of the substantive requirements of a new interstate. Thus they went to the deeper more expensive tunnel alternatives which were shot down for cost and construction reasons.

 

[KellySyracuse]

Honestly, this is a fight because suburban politicians think they and their districts are more important than the economic health and people that live in the city.

 

[xc84]

Honestly, this is a fight because suburban politicians think they and their districts are more important than the economic health and people that live in the city.

I think there are more factions than that. Dewitt is a suburb and wants a raised highway (and no change to 481). There is a North Side coalition that wants a raised highway or tunnel. There are downtown coalitions that want the at-grade / 481 option. There is the mall that wants the raised highway or tunnel.

 

[FrancoPizza]

It's being proposed as, essentially, a driveway to the mall, public be damned.

There's always two sides of the coin. Whether you like it or not, it is the leading tourist attraction in town, but more importantly, the mall's sales tax revenue is how the county pays most of their bills. It sends a weak message to prospective future tenants that a super-regional mall could not persuade community leaders to preserve its direct interstate access. You think Minneapolis officials would ever consider rerouting their highway away from Mall of America?

 

[shandeezy7]

I think there are more factions than that. Dewitt is a suburb and wants a raised highway (and no change to 481). There is a North Side coalition that wants a raised highway or tunnel. There are downtown coalitions that want the at-grade / 481 option. There is the mall that wants the raised highway or tunnel.

I think the mall, along with the PILOT owner and several other business owners make up the entirety of the north side coalition. Haven't seen where the North Salina Street group stands on this, aside from being vehemently opposed to expanding 81 north of 690 (which is completely unnecessary in my opinion).

 

[Fly Rodder]

There's always two sides of the coin. Whether you like it or not, it is the leading tourist attraction in town, but more importantly, the mall's sales tax revenue is how the county pays most of their bills. It sends a weak message to prospective future tenants that a super-regional mall could not persuade community leaders to preserve its direct interstate access. You think Minneapolis officials would ever consider rerouting their highway away from Mall of America?

Malls come and go ... Syracuse University is not going anywhere. Additionally Malls aren't these huge economic engines that politicians and mall owners like to make them out to be.

 

[shandeezy7]

There's always two sides of the coin. Whether you like it or not, it is the leading tourist attraction in town, but more importantly, the mall's sales tax revenue is how the county pays most of their bills. It sends a weak message to prospective future tenants that a super-regional mall could not persuade community leaders to preserve its direct interstate access. You think Minneapolis officials would ever consider rerouting their highway away from Mall of America?

I get what you are saying, but the highway isn't going anywhere. If 81 through downtown is torn down, the portion of 81 North of 690 and South of 481 will still remain there, and likely renamed. Yes, through traffic would be routed around it, but I would love to know how many people per day happen to randomly be driving by the mall and decide they are going to stop there. I would venture to guess that 98% of the patrons of the mall have purposefully decided that they were going there, and it wasn't some decision made on a whim because they saw it on the side of the road.

 

[OttoMets]

There's always two sides of the coin. Whether you like it or not, it is the leading tourist attraction in town, but more importantly, the mall's sales tax revenue is how the county pays most of their bills. It sends a weak message to prospective future tenants that a super-regional mall could not persuade community leaders to preserve its direct interstate access. You think Minneapolis officials would ever consider rerouting their highway away from Mall of America?

Mall of America doesn't have direct interstate access. It's on a stub, like what's proposed for the north side of Syracuse and the mall here.

It's also got a very useful light rail station. I'm envious of the leadership and planning decisions made out there, if only we were so lucky in Central New York. Making multi-generational regional transportation policy decisions based on the perceived desires of a shopping mall owner would be the height of foolishness.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Honestly, this is a fight because suburban politicians think they and their districts are more important than the economic health and people that live in the city.

The city is a district. There are multiple districts affected by this decision. Per surveys and polls, the majority of districts do not support the community grid without some compromise that preserves thru access where 81 currently lies. Just because the city is a liberal/welfare state doesn't mean they should get preferred status in this process.

 

[OttoMets]

Malls come and go ... Syracuse University is not going anywhere. Additionally Malls aren't these huge economic engines that politicians and mall owners like to make them out to be.

I can think of something else that comes and goes: the decision to drive a personal car.

It's funny -- in a very sad way -- that Central New York is having any trouble making a billion-dollar policy decision presuming the continued demand for indoor shopping malls and cars, two things that are very likely to be obsolete in 30 years.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The city is a district. There are multiple districts affected by this decision. Per surveys and polls, the majority of districts do not support the community grid without some compromise that preserves thru access where 81 currently lies. Just because the city is a liberal/welfare state doesn't mean they should get preferred status in this process.

Liberal welfare/state? You're just tacking on words here.

How does a $3 billion tunnel positively effect the City of Syracuse?

 

[FrancoPizza]

How does a $3 billion tunnel positively effect the City of Syracuse?

How does our taxpayer subsidized support for Pioneer Homes benefit the suburbanites? At the end of the day, billions will be wasted here or someplace else. Let's waste it here for once.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Build the tunnel. Everyone will be happy. Billions will be wasted here or someplace else. Let's waste it here for once.

Obviously not everyone will be happy. Which is why there is a 4 year process to determine the most effective alternative.

 

[OttoMets]

How does our taxpayer subsidized support for Pioneer Homes benefit the suburbanites? At the end of the day, billions will be wasted here or someplace else. Let's waste it here for once.

Because there are poor people in the region and they need to be housed somewhere? And every suburb is fortunate that one community bears the heavy burden of this social responsibility?

Jesus, that is the most ignorant sentiment I've ever seen expressed on this board.

 

[xc84]

There's always two sides of the coin. Whether you like it or not, it is the leading tourist attraction in town, but more importantly, the mall's sales tax revenue is how the county pays most of their bills. It sends a weak message to prospective future tenants that a super-regional mall could not persuade community leaders to preserve its direct interstate access. You think Minneapolis officials would ever consider rerouting their highway away from Mall of America?

The Mall of America is well outside of downtown Minneapolis and the interstate does not run through the center of downtown. Destiny will be located on a highway no matter the option chosen.

 

[KellySyracuse]

I think there are more factions than that. Dewitt is a suburb and wants a raised highway (and no change to 481). There is a North Side coalition that wants a raised highway or tunnel. There are downtown coalitions that want the at-grade / 481 option. There is the mall that wants the raised highway or tunnel.

the north side coalition does not want the viaduct. They disagree with the modifications to 81 north of the viaduct as the DOT wants to change the Butternut St. bridge so the north side loses it's connection to Armory Square.

 

[xc84]

the north side coalition does not want the viaduct. They disagree with the modifications to 81 north of the viaduct as the DOT wants to change the Butternut St. bridge so the north side loses it's connection to Armory Square.

Aren't they saying they want a tunnel?

 

[KellySyracuse]

The city is a district. There are multiple districts affected by this decision. Per surveys and polls, the majority of districts do not support the community grid without some compromise that preserves thru access where 81 currently lies. Just because the city is a liberal/welfare state doesn't mean they should get preferred status in this process.

and there it is, thanks for not disappointing me. Yes, we should base a 100 year decision on your desire to drive a car. That makes sense

 

[shandeezy7]

The city is a district. There are multiple districts affected by this decision. Per surveys and polls, the majority of districts do not support the community grid without some compromise that preserves thru access where 81 currently lies. Just because the city is a liberal/welfare state doesn't mean they should get preferred status in this process.

If you're all for wasteful money being spent in CNY, I can think of hundreds of things more worthy of spending $3 billion on than an unnecessary highway that results in the further destruction of the city.