Either get on the Dino train or shut the hell up

[CousCuse]

Here's the problem, Shafer had worse performance every year he was here. Those other guys, not so much.

None of those guys were internal hires that took over a winning team and the proceeded to decline across the board in wins, offense, defense.

Shafer was also tasked with bringing the team up in class from the BigEast to the ACC . Then having every QB he put in get injured for 2 years in a row was an impossible obstacle to deal with and still progress .

 

[DPCuse]

Would you rather see anger or apathy? Because 3-9 or 2-10 is gonna lead to a lot of both.

I'd rather see restraint on a public message board. It's fine to be disappointed. I am, you are, the coaches and players are. But cmon, let's not publicly start criticizing the staff 6 games in to year one when admittedly he said it's going to take a few years to turn around.

 

[GoSU96]

That is not why I bring this up . I bring this up because Shafer was a good coach and now Baber's is a good coach and the same serial dating psychology will happen again unless it is confronted and exposed . I think this comes from the basketball recruiting where the next class is always so much better than the previous ones , which is not always the case . In any event , this is going to be very difficult and success is not guaranteed .

SU total offense under Shafer after being 17th the year before.

85th, 113th, 118th. See a trend?

Under Babers after six games: 36th.

These guys will be fine.

 

[SWC75]

Please put this on the "shut-the-hell-up" board.

 

[Bayside44]

Shafer could have won against ND , USF , WF ,and UCONN .

As Doug Marrone's DC in year 8 of Marrone, yeah.

On his own no way.

 

[CousCuse]

As Doug Marrone's DC in year 8 of Marrone, yeah.

On his own no way.

The team was close in a lot of games last year , with the QB issue .

 

[Bayside44]

The team was close in a lot of games last year , with the QB issue .

I went to the UVa game where he got outcoached by another guy in over his head. That game ended it for him.

Like Go said, everything got worse under him. He abandoned Marrone's approach, it's really more Gross's folly to hire him instead of say Hackett and keep the O going.

 

[CousCuse]

I went to the UVa game where he got outcoached by another guy in over his head. That game ended it for him.

Like Go said, everything got worse under him. He abandoned Marrone's approach, it's really more Gross's folly to hire him instead of say Hackett and keep the O going.

Virginia IS stocked with real talent and their coach couldn't get them to perform . And yet , they did get a gift TD on a forward incompletion which is the only reason they won that game .

 

[Bayside44]

Virginia IS stocked with real talent and their coach couldn't get them to perform . And yet , they did get a gift TD on a forward incompletion which is the only reason they won that game .

Shafer got himself fired that day, that's how outcoached he was.

If he gets another P5 head coaching job and succeeds then I'll happily be wrong.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

SU total offense under Shafer after being 17th the year before.

85th, 113th, 118th. See a trend?

Under Babers after six games: 36th.

These guys will be fine.

Love the total offense numbers argument without taking into account the additional 25 plays per game. Reeks of desperation to find something good to this point in the season.

Reality is that this team is no better this year than last year (probably worse) and that's a tough pill to swallow after many said we would be better if we just had a competent staff.

 

[CousCuse]

Love the total offense numbers argument without taking into account the additional 25 plays per game. Reeks of desperation to find something good to this point in the season.

Reality is that this team is no better this year than last year (probably worse) and that's a tough pill to swallow after many said we would be better if we just had a competent staff.

That was the narrative , at that time . The new one is the cupboard is bare and it is the previous coaches fault . Of course , how could the previous coach recruit when the prospect of his firing was constantly being used against him om the recruiting trail .

 

[GoSU96]

Love the total offense numbers argument without taking into account the additional 25 plays per game. Reeks of desperation to find something good to this point in the season.

Reality is that this team is no better this year than last year (probably worse) and that's a tough pill to swallow after many said we would be better if we just had a competent staff.

Who said it doesn't take it into account? It's part of the package.

As a macro relative measurement the total offense and defense rankings are good measurements of basic capability.

Are you really arguing that removing Shafer falls into the "change for change" sake category or that replacing him with Babers isn't a clear upgrade?

 

[Ish88888]

The scheming may have been atrocious, but there is no way the talent was 'equal'. Just because you say that in multiple threads does not make it true. Stop it. Please.

The talent gap is alot closer, the closest in p5. MAC teams compete with less talent every week by out scheming their opponents.

 

[Dodger44]

Either get on the dino train or shut the hell up????? Didn't you people say the same thing about Robinson, Marrone, Shafer ?

 

[orange79]

The talent gap is alot closer, the closest in p5.
The closest in P5? How can you even claim that? What criteria are you using?

MAC teams compete with less talent every week by out scheming their opponents.
Yes, mostly against other MAC teams.

 

[orange79]

Either get on the dino train or shut the hell up????? Didn't you people say the same thing about Robinson, Marrone, Shafer ?

 

[Alsacs]

Marrone set it back...Shafer is a good coach who was put in a tough situation due to Marrone and the SU AD not spending money while everyone else did.

We disagree which is fine. I think Marrone bailed and the AD went cheap and we hired a guy who was in over his head. Shafer was a decent DC. We overrate his performance as DC. We were playing a Big East schedule. They played well in 2010 but that schedule was weak as heck and when we faced Washington and Kansas State were shredded.
Shafer is liked because he was blue collar IMO but the guy was nothing special and we are paying for seasons right now.

 

[OrangeDW]

Either get on the dino train or shut the hell up????? Didn't you people say the same thing about Robinson, Marrone, Shafer ?

Well, Marrone was a good coach so they were right on that one.

I don't remember many having much faith in Robinson, even from early on in his first season.

 

[Alsacs]

Either get on the dino train or shut the hell up????? Didn't you people say the same thing about Robinson, Marrone, Shafer ?

No, I didn't I hated the Robinson and Shafer hires. I never got on their trains because they to me where horrible hires. I gave Marrone a chance because after 2009 he showed obvious progress from the Gerg nightmare.

Marrone got heat from me in 2011 and early 2012. However, I would take his crap over Shafer/Gerg.

Babers is the real deal and deserves time. So if people can't see that then I say shut the hell up.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Who said it doesn't take it into account? It's part of the package.

As a macro relative measurement the total offense and defense rankings are good measurements of basic capability.

Are you really arguing that removing Shafer falls into the "change for change" sake category or that replacing him with Babers isn't a clear upgrade?

It hasn't been an upgrade to date. I have been very skeptical of the fast approach based upon our talent level (which I don't see changing dramatically for many reasons). I believe if you have less talent you should slow the game down versus speed it up (in any sport) in order to have a chance to win. It's statistical odds at work. Imo, more possessions usually will default to the team with more talent winning. When are we going to consistently be the more talented team?

As I've stated I'm behind the program and my time and wallet back me up but am still very skeptical this approach is workable here. In the interim, we have figured out a more exciting way to lose to this point except for last night's debacle.

I want it to work I just can't see it yet.

 

[Deuga]

WF is 5 -1. They are what a team looks like in their third year when you are well coached and patient. There are other examples: Colorado under Mike MacIntyre in their 4th year. They are 4 - 2 this year so far. They've been dismal for years. When Mac arrived the cupboard was empty, hence it took 4 years. Peterson at Washington is another example of a turnaround from mediocre to great. The Huskies used to be Oregon's doormat for years.

We've had 2 full recruiting classes the last 4 years. That's why I only root for progress this year. When you play most of a game in a monsoon I'm going to toss that one in the garbage bin and move on. I'm not going to waste energy getting upset over a result in freak conditions with an offense not built for those conditions. Our offense is built for the dome.

I think our natural position if we are diligent and patient with Babers is to be near the top of the 2nd tier of ACC teams in football. We have the chance to become the top tier team NE recruits look to. Meanwhile WF will always be begging for scraps in the Carolinas. Yes, I know recruiting is national these days but your backyard matters.

 

[anomander]

Marrone set it back...Shafer is a good coach who was put in a tough situation due to Marrone and the SU AD not spending money while everyone else did.

Idk Mark. I have to disagree. I truly believe that if we were in year 8 of Marrone we would be looking at a program that is expected to make a bowl every year. I really liked Marrone's long term plan and most importantly his ability to game plan. Shafer got away from that game plan and proved to be a far inferior manager. Shafer had very questionable recruiting classes since he took over. If there is any blame to go around it's on him, but I definitely can't see how the only HC who managed to win here over the past 2 decades is responsible for what we are dealing with now?

 

[TheCusian]

Love the total offense numbers argument without taking into account the additional 25 plays per game. Reeks of desperation to find something good to this point in the season.

Reality is that this team is no better this year than last year (probably worse) and that's a tough pill to swallow after many said we would be better if we just had a competent staff.

I think if you're going to use those numbers to describe past O/D performance, you can't throw them out totally now.

Plus, and this has been said multiple times ... if you're measurement is YPP and you're saying "hey it's the same, so we are not better" your missing out on the increase in possessions and the correlated "more chances to score" (which IS VERY important to this style of offense). No small thing and not desperate.

And another is the view that potential recruits have of the numbers we're putting up. Real positive. (Especially in relation to Rutgers 35 total yards).

As to your final point. We will be better with a competent staff, but change takes time. Patience.

 

[TheCusian]

Idk Mark. I have to disagree. I truly believe that if we were in year 8 of Marrone we would be looking at a program that is expected to make a bowl every year. I really liked Marrone's long term plan and most importantly his ability to game plan. Shafer got away from that game plan and proved to be a far inferior manager. Shafer had very questionable recruiting classes since he took over. If there is any blame to go around it's on him, but I definitely can't see how the only HC who managed to win here over the past 2 decades is responsible for what we are dealing with now?

But recruiting? The ACC and the IPF would help, no doubt. But he seemingly hated it. It's hard to maintain success with talent deficiencies year over year.

 

[anomander]

But recruiting? The ACC and the IPF would help, no doubt. But he seemingly hated it. It's hard to maintain success with talent deficiencies year over year.

imo one of the biggest board myths was how bad of a recruiter Marrone was. Sure he didn't like it, but it stil doesn't mean his staff was ineffective. I'm not even going to try and judge was first 2 classes because we were dealing with probably the worst facilities in the country and were coming out of the worst period of football in the history of the program. Still, Marrone implemented the groundwork for his strategy the first couple years and I think we were just going to start seeing the results of working the plan. It's well known that Marrone set certain parameters before even extending an offer. He also targeted certain regions and was developing relationships with the programs in the region. I thought his 2012 recruiting class was the best one we had to date and more importantly had very few misses top to bottom. His 2013 class was shaping up to be even better before he left. Our facilities weren't totally renovated until 2012. I truly believe that if he had everything we have at our disposal now he would be recruiting at just as good a clip as we had since he left and probably better. Plus, not to be taken for granted, is his ability to finding hidden gems, especially on the OL. I know it's what if, but I would have loved to see the end result of his rebuild if he followed it through to the end. For the record I really do think Babers is the man to get this turned around and Shafer wasn't. Unfortunately we're going to need a year or 2 while he once again overhauls the roster.