everyone needs to remember

[tep624]

It may be distasteful, but I think we need to over recruit on offense, and then "conveniently" switch a few of those guys to defensive backfield...

We did it during the 90's - T Buck immediately comes to mind - I have no problem with that whatsoever. You give them a legitimate shot on the offensive side of the ball - just like we did more recently with Hogue, Ferri, Derrell Smith, etc.

 

[tep624]

One thing that is glaringly obvious on defense is our size. LB's are all undersized and have a very hard time getting off blocks. The whole defensive backfield is tiny. The only group that has some size is the DL, but that is the most inexperienced unit. I understand that these guys were recruited for an entirely different defense, that emphasized more speed over size, but even their speed (which is questionable) can't make up for their lack of size in this defense. We really need to upgrade the talent...and size on that side of the ball. If there are some blue chip recruits that want to come in and play right away at DB, LB, or DE, then Syracuse is the place because we need a major overhaul with that unit. The cupboards are definitely bare.

I think DE will be ok since we've got 4 young guys that this staff recruited in the last class. I didn't get the feel those guys were fliers - and some like Nelson had legit SEC offers. DT is pretty strong IMO. I expect by mid season the D Line should be in a position where it can function well in the new defensive system.

The back 7 though - it's going to be tough week in, week out. Especially when we play teams that have high end speed at the WR position.

 

[RF2044]

No -- Raymon wasn't on the 2015 team; Ealey & Shepperd did not play much (true frosh, barely scratching the two deep -- Shepperd certainly had potential); Carter did not play; Arciniega was a converted LB playing back up at DE for the first time. The starting DEs graduated (Simmons) or left for the NFL (Thompson -- undrafted).

We have the same talent back in 9 positions (now minus Cordy to injury). Add Wilson & Coleman -- who match up very well with the back up DEs you listed. Add McKinley Williams who is far better than Carter. Adjust the DL so Slayton, Clark & Samuels all start. Replace one starter (Hodge) with a better LB (Thomas). Add another year of S&C for the 9 returning starters, and another year of experience with the coaching in the Spring and in August. You have 9 positions better than in 2015, and the DEs (even with Slayton) not so much.

The defense should not regress compared to last season.

There is very little in your post that I agree with.

If you don't think that Shepperd / Ealy would have both been positioned to have important, contributing roles on this year's squad, I'm not sure what to tell you. They would be the stabilizing components to our desperate need at DE. Arcinega was another guy playing very well last year after the conversion to DE until injuries derailed his season. Have all three [or even TWO] of those guys on this year's roster, and the defense improves quite a bit IMO.

Don't even get me started on how much of a difference Thompson would have made, had he elected to return. "Undrafted" = irrelevant; he would have been the one defender on this team that OCs would have had to game plan around.

Right now, we are solid at DT, incredibly weak / inexperienced at DE, and significantly undersized at both LB / the secondary--a situation compounded by depleted depth / injury considerations at both CB and S.

Most of these issues were known / universally recognized prior to the season beginning, so I'm at a loss to understand how someone would expect the defense to be better than last season.

 

[storange]

I understand, but Im getting very impatient with having patience after 4 coaches in 12 years. And i"m not getting any younger!

 

[Chip]

No -- Raymon wasn't on the 2015 team; Ealey & Shepperd did not play much (true frosh, barely scratching the two deep -- Shepperd certainly had potential); Carter did not play; Arciniega was a converted LB playing back up at DE for the first time. The starting DEs graduated (Simmons) or left for the NFL (Thompson -- undrafted).

We have the same talent back in 9 positions (now minus Cordy to injury). Add Wilson & Coleman -- who match up very well with the back up DEs you listed. Add McKinley Williams who is far better than Carter. Adjust the DL so Slayton, Clark & Samuels all start. Replace one starter (Hodge) with a better LB (Thomas). Add another year of S&C for the 9 returning starters, and another year of experience with the coaching in the Spring and in August. You have 9 positions better than in 2015, and the DEs (even with Slayton) not so much.

The defense should not regress compared to last season.

I thought the defense was pretty bad last year. We were 99th in yards per game. With an offense that scared no one (i.e. no one was worried about continuing to score because we might come back).

Between the defections you noted, we have certainly downgraded at DE, if nothing else. And we have made the decision to play up tempo on offense, which means more time for the defense on the field.

I'm frustrated as well, but this is something we should have seen coming. Especially against what might be the best offense, and best offensive minds in all of college football (top 5 easy).

 

[RF2044]

I think DE will be ok since we've got 4 young guys that this staff recruited in the last class. I didn't get the feel those guys were fliers - and some like Nelson had legit SEC offers. DT is pretty strong IMO. I expect by mid season the D Line should be in a position where it can function well in the new defensive system.

The back 7 though - it's going to be tough week in, week out. Especially when we play teams that have high end speed at the WR position.

Agree about the DEs ... down the road. We have four frosh [three of whom are true frosh] in Pickard, Coleman, Black, and Newton. at some point in the not too distant future, we'll view DE as a strength instead of the liability it is this year, but every one of those guys is at least a year away from actualizing their potential.

Major talent infusions required at LB and in the secondary. I like the prospects we've lined up at LB in this class [the kid from Ohio, and Fagan]. Jones is a step in the right direction at CB. And I like the potential of class of 2017 prospects like Coley and the kid from MA. Anyone know if Pierre is in prep school, and an option for December enrollment?

 

[SoBristol]

There is very little in your post that I agree with.

If you don't think that Shepperd / Ealy would have both been positioned to have important, contributing roles on this year's squad, I'm not sure what to tell you. They would be the stabilizing components to our desperate need at DE. Arcinega was another guy playing very well last year after the conversion to DE until injuries derailed his season. Have all three [or even TWO] of those guys on this year's roster, and the defense improves quite a bit IMO.

Don't even get me started on how much of a difference Thompson would have made, had he elected to return. "Undrafted" = irrelevant; he would have been the one defender on this team that OCs would have had to game plan around.

Right now, we are solid at DT, incredibly weak / inexperienced at DE, and significantly undersized at both LB / the secondary--a situation compounded by depleted depth / injury considerations at both CB and S.

Most of these issues were known / universally recognized prior to the season beginning, so I'm at a loss to understand how someone would expect the defense to be better than last season.

To return the point, there is not much in your post or your arguments I can agree with. You can replace guys like Arcinega, and Shepperd & Ealey were not significant to how the defense performed last season. I am not comparing how the defense would have improved with them back. I am comparing what we have in 2016 to what we had in 2015.

Yes, Thompson would have made a difference if he returned. And that is basically it, on what we lost of those who were in the line-up last season. Add Simmons if you want -- two DEs, that's it.

Secondary -- same as last season, plus a year of S&C for guys like Hudson, Winfield & Whitner. LBs -- improved with Thomas stepping in for Hodge (who is now the key reserve). DTs -- all back and improved. Shore up the DEs with Slayton and our best true frosh in Coleman -- not a full equivalent, admittedly, but 9 spots are better.

But overall, if that cupboard is bare -- it was more bare in 2015 for Shafer/Bullough. So, no regression.

 

[SoBristol]

That's just not reasonable. You have a coach that has brought in a staff that is implementing two new systems on both sides of the ball - they aren't catering these systems to the talent, they are instilling the systems and letting the chips fall where they may (and we can debate the merits of that until the cows come home but that is DB's way clearly based upon what he has done in his past and what he communicated prior to this season). That's why we're playing a Tampa 2 with a 5'8 safety (love Cordy but let's get real here - if Babers was in a gym class picking players for a team he's not picking a 5'8 to play safety in his system). There was a reason why this staff rolled the dice on adding two late additions, at least from a size perspective, prototypical DB's for their system in Moore and Pierre who both unfortunately didn't qualify. There's a reason why Carl Jones is playing as a true frosh.

We shouldn't have regressed if this was Shafer's staff using the same systems as last year and the players they recruited for those systems. ...

Well, the secondary was a weak point last season as well. There was a reason Shafer tried hard to land Prater and Blair, for his system. Jones is playing as the 3rd CB because we didn't have anyone better, after the injury to Dowels.

But look -- the defense played well against Colgate. Much better than we played against our FCS opponent the prior year, and Colgate returned almost its entire offense from a playoff contending team. The same undersized defensive players won games last season, and 9 starters are back. I have yet to understand why converting to a Tampa 2 means the defense regresses and we get rolled by teams we beat or should have beaten last season. (Yes, Louisville is loaded, so that is a different point.)

 

[baggerbob]

To return the point, there is not much in your post or your arguments I can agree with. You can replace guys like Arcinega, and Shepperd & Ealey were not significant to how the defense performed last season. I am not comparing how the defense would have improved with them back. I am comparing what we have in 2016 to what we had in 2015.

Yes, Thompson would have made a difference if he returned. And that is basically it, on what we lost of those who were in the line-up last season. Add Simmons if you want -- two DEs, that's it.

Secondary -- same as last season, plus a year of S&C for guys like Hudson, Winfield & Whitner. LBs -- improved with Thomas stepping in for Hodge (who is now the key reserve). DTs -- all back and improved. Shore up the DEs with Slayton and our best true frosh in Coleman -- not a full equivalent, admittedly, but 9 spots are better.

But overall, if that cupboard is bare -- it was more bare in 2015 for Shafer/Bullough. So, no regression.

Your original post was wrong, Raymon did play last year, and started a couple of games, so if you can't even remember that, why should we agree with You? Raymon missed most of the previous season 2014, with injury.

 

[tep624]

Well, the secondary was a weak point last season as well. There was a reason Shafer tried hard to land Prater and Blair, for his system. Jones is playing as the 3rd CB because we didn't have anyone better, after the injury to Dowels.

But look -- the defense played well against Colgate. Much better than we played against our FCS opponent the prior year, and Colgate returned almost its entire offense from a playoff contending team. The same undersized defensive players won games last season, and 9 starters are back. I have yet to understand why converting to a Tampa 2 means the defense regresses and we get rolled by teams we beat or should have beaten last season. (Yes, Louisville is loaded, so that is a different point.)

I agree they played well against Colgate - but teams with elite size/speed at WR (L'ville, Clemson, FSU, ND) are going to burn this system until we get the right players in the back 7.

 

[RF2044]

To return the point, there is not much in your post or your arguments I can agree with. You can replace guys like Arcinega, and Shepperd & Ealey were not significant to how the defense performed last season. I am not comparing how the defense would have improved with them back. I am comparing what we have in 2016 to what we had in 2015.

Yes, Thompson would have made a difference if he returned. And that is basically it, on what we lost of those who were in the line-up last season. Add Simmons if you want -- two DEs, that's it.

Secondary -- same as last season, plus a year of S&C for guys like Hudson, Winfield & Whitner. LBs -- improved with Thomas stepping in for Hodge (who is now the key reserve). DTs -- all back and improved. Shore up the DEs with Slayton and our best true frosh in Coleman -- not a full equivalent, admittedly, but 9 spots are better.

But overall, if that cupboard is bare -- it was more bare in 2015 for Shafer/Bullough. So, no regression.

No offense, but your logic is extremely faulty. You look at true frosh campaigns for Ealy / Shepperd and conclude that since they didn't make an impact last year, that they wouldn't have a bigger role moving forward? Okay...

Your take on Arcinega couldn't be more off, IMO.

Also, the secondary stunk last year. Did you not watch the team? Winfield was the best out of a fairly lousy group of corners, and he is undersized for the new system.

Speaking of said system--you know, the one that is NEW and vastly different from the previous one we ran--our personnel aren't suited for it [yet], and the kids are still learning it. So, even being undersized, if they had been immersed in it longer, then maybe--with an emphasis on "maybe"--we might be able to expect them to play faster and have better results.

But personnel limitations coupled with not being familiar with the new system @ game 2 is what's holding them back.

"9 spots are better" is frankly a ridiculous assertion. We are OK [not great] at DT, and subpar everywhere else from a personnel standpoint for this defensive system. Case in point: I love Franklin / Bennett, but they are too small for Tampa 2.

I think the viewpoints you're expressing fail to take into account how decidedly subpar the defense was last year, and looks at our personnel through the undeserved orange goggles lens where the personnel are better than they actually are.

If they were--especially the back 7--then we wouldn't be so poor defensively. Or if we could generate more pass rush from the DEs--which we undoubtedly would be better equipped to do with a proven commodity like Arcinega and two ascending sophomores [one of whom ended up at an SEC school when he transferred].

 

[ejz555]

No -- Raymon wasn't on the 2015 team; Ealey & Shepperd did not play much (true frosh, barely scratching the two deep -- Shepperd certainly had potential); Carter did not play; Arciniega was a converted LB playing back up at DE for the first time. The starting DEs graduated (Simmons) or left for the NFL (Thompson -- undrafted).

We have the same talent back in 9 positions (now minus Cordy to injury). Add Wilson & Coleman -- who match up very well with the back up DEs you listed. Add McKinley Williams who is far better than Carter. Adjust the DL so Slayton, Clark & Samuels all start. Replace one starter (Hodge) with a better LB (Thomas). Add another year of S&C for the 9 returning starters, and another year of experience with the coaching in the Spring and in August. You have 9 positions better than in 2015, and the DEs (even with Slayton) not so much.

The defense should not regress compared to last season.

Raymon was on the team. Box scores can be easily found. More experience and depth last year. I'll leave it at that.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

Let's not go overboard with the excuses.
2015 team won 4 games, should have beat UVa, played Pitt to a 3 point game, and wasn't embarrassed against LSU or Clemson, playing with a walk-on qB. Essentially the same talent back (other than Ron Thompson), except we have a soph Dungey (much better) and a WR in Etta Tawo who is better than anyone we had last season. 17 starters back -- not nearly so young overall as in 2015; better off-season S&C; better offensive coaching staff.

No reason we should regress.

Hahaha, except for the complete change in defensive scheme and presence of players on the squad who aren't great fits for the new scheme. The offense isn't bad and is much improved. The defense is going to be lost much of the time this year due to that change in scheme. That's exactly what we saw.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I understand, but Im getting very impatient with having patience after 4 coaches in 12 years. And i"m not getting any younger!

Exactly. Every season is about next season..and the seson after that. Shite gets old,I'm sick of it. I think we will get there with Dino but it will take 2-3 seasons and like you said I'm done with cupboard bare discussions, so sick of it. I read here for 2 years how Shafer was killing it on the recruiting trail, well what I saw on defense leaves much to be desired as far as size and athleticism minus a couple pieces.

 

[OrangeAggieArmy]

Good post. Some folks dismissed Dino's warnings, saying he was just trying to lower expectations but didn't really mean it. He meant it. There are maybe 5 Power 5 teams with less talent than us.

Maybe this is therapeutic for me, but which 5 P5 teams have less talent than us? I can really only come up with two definites - Kansas and Purdue.

 

[721Comstock]

Maybe this is therapeutic for me, but which 5 P5 teams have less talent than us? I can really only come up with two definites - Kansas and Purdue.

UK.
World Wide Wes only does hoops recruiting.

Wake is 0-3 against us, so them likely too.

 

[djorange1989]

UK.
World Wide Wes only does hoops recruiting.

Wake is 0-3 against us, so them likely too.

yeah, I thought of those 4 as well. We have better offensive talent overall than BC, but they have much better defensive talent, so that is kind of a wash. Illinois is pretty untalented, maybe them.