Future Campus Framework Presentation...

[Townie72]

Townie, I'm not saying you are wrong, because I do see your point, but at the same time Carrier thought it was a good thing to have their name on the building when it was built. In the world you are describing that was wasted money because I do agree some subcontractor in St. Louis isn't saying "I want HVAC equipment from that company that is affiliated with that dome someplace."

But clearly, Carrier still saw value in it worth the investment. So it does stand to reason they would also see value in not being shown up by having a competitor furnish the HVAC for "their building."

Of course, Carrier may have only given money for the dome back in the day to keep favor with whatever local politicians were keeping them in tax breaks and environmental permits, etc and it never had a damn thing to do with advertising.

Houston, you are more right in your last paragraph. Local politicians can have a huge impact of a company like Carrier.

As someone who has done a fair amount of Corporate advertising, this was pretty clearly not an "investment". I'd love for some of the Advertising experts on here to show me the case for spending $4M in terms of incremental net profit in an industry with pretty slim net margins at the manufacturing level.

This was more of a "pay back" and a nod to the politicians and powers-that-be saying "We are all in this community together".

At that time, SU and Carrier had lots of connected points. Lots of the Carrier executives and managers had gone to SU as undergrads or they had taken graduate course there to advance their careers. Those Carrier employees at all levels who cared about college sports probably rooted for SU.

So when SU was looking for Dome money, they approached Carrier and they kicked in $4M they had for a number of reasons, some business and some personal. I'll bet $$$ to doughnuts the money did not come out of their Advertising budget.

At that time, you would have found the same inter-connectedness --- even inter-dependency --- between Xerox and Kodak with the University of Rochester and RIT.

 

[Townie72]

It doesn't seem that they are laughing at the possibility of losing their name on the building so they see value there and lots of it.

Innefective as far as what? Generating revenue or embarrassment? Embarrassment has value or we wouldn't have a law against blackmailing people...this is just of the legal variety and is very effective in generating responses from companies and people. Clearly you have never worked for a company with a CEO that has an ego (most if not all do) or seen people's careers affected by such ego and having their company embarrassed on a big stage.

I can assure you that this strategy I outlined would not be laughed off by Carrier and be taken pretty seriously.

You are way, way overstating the importance to Carrier of having Carrier equipment in any revised version of the Dome. It's an emotional argument, not a logical one.

To the extent that they are worried about the name, I suspect some of that comes from a belief that a deal is a deal.

In order for there to be embarrassment or blackmail, someone has to actually care about the consequences. Those chillers humming away in a modified Dome with Trane on the side aren't going to bother anyone. Those who know about it, will know that the university generally doesn't know what kind of equipment is purchased. The contractors are the one's that buy this sort of thing.

The contractors are guided by the equipment price, the service and support provided by the manufacturer and the familiarity of their people with the equipment.

Any discounting that Carrier could do, their competitors could match. The contractors would love this because they are the ones that benefit from a lower price. It's money that goes right in their pocket.

The Carrier Dome has been un-air conditioned for 35 years. The only people who know this are a the few thousands that go to September games there. You haven't noticed the Carrier people in a great sweat to correct this "embarrassment" have you?

 

[xc84]

Houston, you are more right in your last paragraph. Local politicians can have a huge impact of a company like Carrier.

As someone who has done a fair amount of Corporate advertising, this was pretty clearly not an "investment". I'd love for some of the Advertising experts on here to show me the case for spending $4M in terms of incremental net profit in an industry with pretty slim net margins at the manufacturing level.

This was more of a "pay back" and a nod to the politicians and powers-that-be saying "We are all in this community together".

At that time, SU and Carrier had lots of connected points. Lots of the Carrier executives and managers had gone to SU as undergrads or they had taken graduate course there to advance their careers. Those Carrier employees at all levels who cared about college sports probably rooted for SU.

So when SU was looking for Dome money, they approached Carrier and they kicked in $4M they had for a number of reasons, some business and some personal. I'll bet $$$ to doughnuts the money did not come out of their Advertising budget.

At that time, you would have found the same inter-connectedness --- even inter-dependency --- between Xerox and Kodak with the University of Rochester and RIT.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. The donation was a gift and I think the actual naming was not that important to Carrier at the time though it was written into the agreement and acted upon. They considered it a gift, not an investment. That was all standard practice for gifts back then before corporate naming of arenas (especially on college campuses) became common practice. However, now the naming rights are worth maybe as much as $2M per year. The gift has become a valuable investment.

 

[xc84]

You are way, way overstating the importance to Carrier of having Carrier equipment in any revised version of the Dome. It's an emotional argument, not a logical one.

To the extent that they are worried about the name, I suspect some of that comes from a belief that a deal is a deal.

In order for there to be embarrassment or blackmail, someone has to actually care about the consequences. Those chillers humming away in a modified Dome with Trane on the side aren't going to bother anyone. Those who know about it, will know that the university generally doesn't know what kind of equipment is purchased. The contractors are the one's that buy this sort of thing.

The contractors are guided by the equipment price, the service and support provided by the manufacturer and the familiarity of their people with the equipment.

Any discounting that Carrier could do, their competitors could match. The contractors would love this because they are the ones that benefit from a lower price. It's money that goes right in their pocket.

The Carrier Dome has been un-air conditioned for 35 years. The only people who know this are a the few thousands that go to September games there. You haven't noticed the Carrier people in a great sweat to correct this "embarrassment" have you?

Nah. We have heard on countless broadcasts and in many articles how ironic it is that the Carrier dome does not have air conditioning over and over again. I do think that having a Carrier dome with non-Carrier air conditioning is not good PR move for Carrier. In short, it would be embarrassing for Carrier. I don't think it will come to that as I think Carrier will probably buy the naming rights for the "new" dome. The report that they are negotiating now means they are interested in it.

 

[Janner]

I admittedly know very little about naming rights and contract law so maybe someone could answer a question I have. If an equitable deal cant be reached with Carrier could you still sell additional naming rights to the stadium? So for example, "Welcome to the AT&T Carrier Dome"? Carrier would still have its name on the building, you would just be adding another sponsor?

 

[xc84]

I admittedly know very little about naming rights and contract law so maybe someone could answer a question I have. If an equitable deal cant be reached with Carrier could you still sell additional naming rights to the stadium? So for example, "Welcome to the AT&T Carrier Dome"? Carrier would still have its name on the building, you would just be adding another sponsor?

If you reach an equitable deal with Carrier, they can do whatever Carrier allows...including that. I can't imagine another corporation would want that though.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I wonder if the UTC hostile takeover has any effect on the strength of the contract. The deal was with a Syracuse headquartered Carrier that was acquired via hostile takeover by UTC, a mega diversified conglomerate with only a tenuous association with Central New York. Wonder if naming rights are weakened at all by totally changed connections between Carrier and the University?

 

[CuseLegacy]

UTC finalized new naming deal etc with UConn that we saw Saturday. UTC owns Pratt and Whitney. At least UTC's headquarters are in Connecticut. We have close to nothing left here. UTC announced earlier this year they would be laying off even more from their 1000 or so remaining R&D employees left here in the Syracuse area.

New Pratt and Whitney Headquarters; New Name For Rentschler Field

Carrier Corp. cutting jobs in DeWitt

And I think there in lies part of the problem of getting money from Carrier. This isn't about a local corporation making a donation but rather a monetary decision that will be made at UTC.

 

[Townie72]

I don't disagree with anything you say here. The donation was a gift and I think the actual naming was not that important to Carrier at the time though it was written into the agreement and acted upon. They considered it a gift, not an investment. That was all standard practice for gifts back then before corporate naming of arenas (especially on college campuses) became common practice. However, now the naming rights are worth maybe as much as $2M per year. The gift has become a valuable investment.

OK.

But if the Mechanical Contractor for a renovated Dome buys Trane equipment and installs it, how much does that affect whatever Advertising benefit Carrier gets from the Dome.

That's the question here.

Is the expectation that the announcers in the opening of the SU vs. Duke game are actually going to say "Welcome to the Carrier Dome which doesn't use Carrier HVAC equipment".

Or that those diabolical people at Trane are going to spend a lot of money making people aware of this? Are any of the Trane offices in leased space cooled by Carrier HVAC. Are there Chevolets parked in the Ford plant parking lot?

Are the engineers that are writing the spec for a new hospital in Texas going to eliminate Carrier from the approved vendors because the Carrier Dome doesn't have Carrier HVAC equipment?

 

[longtimefan]

You are way, way overstating the importance to Carrier of having Carrier equipment in any revised version of the Dome. It's an emotional argument, not a logical one.

To the extent that they are worried about the name, I suspect some of that comes from a belief that a deal is a deal.

In order for there to be embarrassment or blackmail, someone has to actually care about the consequences. Those chillers humming away in a modified Dome with Trane on the side aren't going to bother anyone. Those who know about it, will know that the university generally doesn't know what kind of equipment is purchased. The contractors are the one's that buy this sort of thing.

The contractors are guided by the equipment price, the service and support provided by the manufacturer and the familiarity of their people with the equipment.

Any discounting that Carrier could do, their competitors could match. The contractors would love this because they are the ones that benefit from a lower price. It's money that goes right in their pocket.

The Carrier Dome has been un-air conditioned for 35 years. The only people who know this are a the few thousands that go to September games there. You haven't noticed the Carrier people in a great sweat to correct this "embarrassment" have you?

Bottom line--there is value in having one's name on that athletic venue in the middle of the SU campus, or the lawyers would not be negotiating over the monetary details.

 

[xc84]

OK.

But if the Mechanical Contractor for a renovated Dome buys Trane equipment and installs it, how much does that affect whatever Advertising benefit Carrier gets from the Dome.

That's the question here.

Yeah...that's not a scenario that Carrier cares about as much. I think the "embarrassment" scenario that some on his board have discussed is the one where e.g. Trane donates the equipment and install and then has its name prominently displayed as a result.

I really don't think it will come to that though. I think the renovated dome will be considered a new structure with new naming rights. Carrier or some other entity will pony up the annual fees.

 

[Toga]

Could the fact UTC is negotiating provide at least something of a legal advantage to SU should the naming rights issue end up in court?

 

[SU68]

If a/c from another company is put in the Carrier Dome, the jokes made by the TV game announcers will continue for years. :rolling:

 

[Townie72]

If a/c from another company is put in the Carrier Dome, the jokes made by the TV game announcers will continue for years. :rolling:

And the joke that is going to last for years is what exactly? Any different from "The Carrier Dome is named after an HVAC company, but is not air conditioned"?

It's amazing how people can delude themselves when they want something to be true.

 

[Townie72]

Yeah...that's not a scenario that Carrier cares about as much. I think the "embarrassment" scenario that some on his board have discussed is the one where e.g. Trane donates the equipment and install and then has its name prominently displayed as a result.

I really don't think it will come to that though. I think the renovated dome will be considered a new structure with new naming rights. Carrier or some other entity will pony up the annual fees.

So, the idea is that Trane will donate a couple of million dollars of HVAC equipment to embarrass Carrier?

And people on here actually believe that is not only possible, but probable? (Amazing!)

Perhaps, they could show us some examples of similar things that have happened in American industry.

That whole industry is in-bred. They don't really want to piss one another off. People who are working for Carrier this year are working for Trane the next. People who are working for Square D this year are working for Siemens the next. People that are working for Russell are working for Eaton the next year. They compete on price and delivery. Advertising has little to do with it.

If there are new naming rights, the company that "ponies up" will either be starving for name recognition (e.g. 3Com) or be a consumer products company that actually gets some benefit from "frequent mentions" (e.g, Verizon).

Companies that make industrial products that are not bought by consumers and that typically have small advertising and PR budgets (e..g. Carrier) are not good prospects.

 

[Cusefan78]

So, the idea is that Trane will donate a couple of million dollars of HVAC equipment to embarrass Carrier?

And people on here actually believe that is not only possible, but probable? (Amazing!)

Perhaps, they could show us some examples of similar things that have happened in American industry.

That whole industry is in-bred. They don't really want to piss one another off. People who are working for Carrier this year are working for Trane the next. People who are working for Square D this year are working for Siemens the next. People that are working for Russell are working for Eaton the next year. They compete on price and delivery. Advertising has little to do with it.

If there are new naming rights, the company that "ponies up" will either be starving for name recognition (e.g. 3Com) or be a consumer products company that actually gets some benefit from "frequent mentions" (e.g, Verizon).

Companies that make industrial products that are not bought by consumers and that typically have small advertising and PR budgets (e..g. Carrier) are not good prospects.

I honestly can't see an upside to carrier naming rights. They are already a known quantity. Why would they shell out what probably would amount to 30 million over 15-20 years. That's a lot of hvac systems To make up that much money. Where is the upside?

 

[xc84]

So, the idea is that Trane will donate a couple of million dollars of HVAC equipment to embarrass Carrier?

No. The idea is that Trane would donate the HVAC equipment in return for something prominently displayed to be named for Trane. They would essentially be paying for advertising. If that happened, it could be embarrassing to Carrier.

 

[xc84]

And the joke that is going to last for years is what exactly? Any different from "The Carrier Dome is named after an HVAC company, but is not air conditioned"?

It would be similar to that... which is awkward for Carrier and not good PR every time it is repeated.

 

[BKCuse]

Pay them $2.75 mil to go away.

I'm so happy you have come around on this point. I recall an old thread where you likened my suggesting we needed to take Carrier's name off the Dome to "dishonoring" the families whose names are on Dineen Hall, Crouse College, Archibold Gym and Manley Field House.

I was always shocked that some of us would resist moving on from Carrier but it's great to see you have evolved your thinking here and we can move forward together on this !

 

[BKCuse]

Yeah...that's not a scenario that Carrier cares about as much. I think the "embarrassment" scenario that some on his board have discussed is the one where e.g. Trane donates the equipment and install and then has its name prominently displayed as a result.

I really don't think it will come to that though. I think the renovated dome will be considered a new structure with new naming rights. Carrier or some other entity will pony up the annual fees.

Happy to have you on board also. If memory serves you were also a staunch defender of the Carrier name remaining on the Dome in perpetuity even through a reno.
Hey I'll buy both of you guys some cold Dome Foam when we're standing in our new 2M per year naming rights "TBD" Dome !

 

[xc84]

Happy to have you on board also. If memory serves you were also a staunch defender of the Carrier name remaining on the Dome in perpetuity even through a reno.
Hey I'll buy both of you guys some cold Dome Foam when we're standing in our new 2M per year naming rights "TBD" Dome !

Your memory is faulty for sure. I would prefer to see a new name and some cashflow. I just said it would not be simple to do. There are legal reasons that make it difficult That was and still is my argument. For some strange reason you took that to mean I was against renaming it. I also said that SU buying it out for what it is worth is a wash for SU.

 

[CusefanATL]

I honestly can't see an upside to carrier naming rights. They are already a known quantity. Why would they shell out what probably would amount to 30 million over 15-20 years. That's a lot of hvac systems To make up that much money. Where is the upside?

This is a list of naming rights holders. American Airlines at least twice, Mercedes Benz twice (not sure why mercedes isnt listed NO and Atl). Both of which are 10000000x better known than Carrier.

Pepsi 4x!

Revenues From Sports Venues

 

[Townie72]

No. The idea is that Trane would donate the HVAC equipment in return for something prominently displayed to be named for Trane. They would essentially be paying for advertising. If that happened, it could be embarrassing to Carrier.

And the benefit to Trane would be what?

Sell it to me like I was the Chief Marketing Officer and you were a bright young person with an idea.

Why would we (Trane) want to do this? What is the expected payback? How much and how long will it take?

And who covers the Channel mark-ups on this transaction. (e.g. wholesaler, sub-contractor etc)? Or is the idea this would be a "direct buy" which will thrill the wholesalers and contractors?

Companies are besieged by this kind of idea on a weekly basis? (Give us your product for free and it will be great advertising for you.)

 

[xc84]

And the benefit to Trane would be what?

Sell it to me like I was the Chief Marketing Officer and you were a bright young person with an idea.

Why would we (Trane) want to do this? What is the expected payback? How much and how long will it take?

And who covers the Channel mark-ups on this transaction. (e.g. wholesaler, sub-contractor etc)? Or is the idea this would be a "direct buy" which will thrill the wholesalers and contractors?

Companies are besieged by this kind of idea on a weekly basis? (Give us your product for free and it will be great advertising for you.)

Same reason a company would pay for naming rights or billboards/ribbon boards, etc.. Exposure. Brand recognition. I have no idea what you are talking about regarding "channel mark-ups". SU would not "buy" it. The idea is that Trane would give it to SU (installed) in return for marketing exposure (e.g. "Trane Field" ). I am sure contractors would be fine since Trane would pay them to install it.

"Give us your product for free and it will be great advertising for you." is the same as "Pay us a sum of money and you can put a big sign up on our wall and we will announce your name on every timeout, etc.."

Listen, I don't think this will ever happen. Given the news that Carrier is talking to SU now, what I think will happen is that the renovations will make the dome a "different building than what Carrier donated to" and Carrier or another company will pay for naming rights. To me, that has a 60% chance of happening. The "Trane idea" is maybe at 10% or less I admit.

 

[ejz555]

I will place my $$$$$ on Turning Stone Place or Turning Stone Field...