Is Boeheim overrated? | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Is Boeheim overrated?

Igor...errrr I mean Docsu, this thread is laughable. Where are all these "CBB" fans on the Internet? Syracuse.com?

Yeah...I leveled a criticism. I Must be that other guy who's critical of Boeheim! Now THAT'S Syracuse.com level logic.

Just sarch the Internet. it wasn't hard for me to find.

And I still can't believe so many people fail to grasp the concept that "bad" and "overrated" don't mean the same thing. If everyone thinks you're top five when in reality you're top ten, you're still good..but also overrated.
 
Not at all. His stock is up, actually. He's won the Big East easily two of the last 3 years and had #1 ranking in both of those years. Finished tied for 3rd in between. We made the Elite 8 last year without our starting center. Probably go at leasf ghat far had AO not been hurt. Hard to call that overrated. Also that Butler team had a lottery pick and another NBA player on it. They beat Kansas State and Michigan State and nearly beat Duke. No shame in losing to to them, without ao.
 
Roy Williams has 2 titles and is overrated.

Or so I hear.
 
Perhaps it could best be answered by asking GMAC if Jimmy B. is overrated.
 
JB has a really interesting system.

I can't think of any system in the country that shows how important it is to have more stars out there then syracuse, and I say that without orange goggles. He runs the zone defense where nobody on Defense can hide as they have to stay in their position and will feel the pressure for it. And on offense he runs so much isolation that everyone is seen. Its really a wonder all the stars don't want to come to syracuse. If you put 5 of them on the floor together they wouldn't cancel each other out on the floor in any way shape or form. Other programs like UNC UK or Duke 3 of the 5 guys on the court would cancel each other out and have before.

I think with a system like JB's its hard to say he is overated, especially considering the winning percentages. His defense requires the right kind of unity just to be good let alone great. They can't operate as much with one stud shotblocker in the middle to compensate for perimeter defense. Nor without the recovery defenders baseline with a true shotblocker in the middle.

If you want to make a argument there has been better programs out there, but they also have had better recruits.
I think given what JB has, he has done really really good with what he has had. The stretch from 92-2002 he wasn't exactly stacked in any way shape or form. But what he has done with better players the last 8 years has been really really good in IMO a much tougher time in basketball.
 
I think the fact that guys like Rautins and Nichols got drafted at all is a huge positive for Boeheim and the SU program, based on where they were coming out of HS and in their early SU careers.

Melo, Flynn, Greene, and Waiters are the only ones who projected as NBA players from day 1 at SU.

There was a lot of speculation over whether Paul Harris would jump straight to the NBA or come to Syracuse. That may have been just faithful followers in upstate NY, however. And I think Josh Pace was a top 50, although I don't recall whether there were NBA projections. Also - his personal issues aside - Billy Edelin was a "can't miss" wasn't he?
 
In a respectfull way.
Harris was a 6'6 pf thats not going to cut it. Edelin was darn slow with no jumper thats 99.89% not nba material, where it gets even more physical in the NBA for his type of PG play. Josh Pace also had no jumpshot whatsoever for a 6'6 guard. Compare that to Nichols who made the NBA and led the big east in scoring and was a pretty darn decent jump shooter. Sadly when he went to the NBA teams couldn't figure out how to use him for a postitive like Cuse could.
Devendorf had 0 defense whatsoever in the zone let alone man to man. He really had no defense. Whether you can score or not if you are a absolute hinderance on D at the level of Devendorf you aren't getting drafted.

None of these guys belong in a post questioning JB.
 
From November to the 2nd week of March JB is elite.

Unfortunately our March's have been pretty bad lately. I agree we got some bad breaks, but we still easily could have beaten Butler and OSU. Fact is we've had 2 #1 seeds in the last 3 years and didn't make the Final Four.
 
His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so. His record post NC seems to point in that direction too.

I'm not trying to flame. It's been almost ten years since the national championship and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Personally I think yes, a little.
Examples of your statement please.
 
From November to the 2nd week of March JB is elite.

Unfortunately our March's have been pretty bad lately. I agree we got some bad breaks, but we still easily could have beaten Butler and OSU. Fact is we've had 2 #1 seeds in the last 3 years and didn't make the Final Four.

This.

The regular season performance the last four years has been great if not spectacular. But ask me who I want coaching in a sweet 16 game and I'd probably name at least five before I came to Boeheim.
 
Best coach in the game. He doesn't do it with a bunch of blue chippers.. he does it with one or two and a bunch of "guys". More than you can say for Roy, Thad or Mike
 
Best coach in the game. He doesn't do it with a bunch of blue chippers.. he does it with one or two and a bunch of "guys". More than you can say for Roy, Thad or Mike


Can I just say how funny it is that in the 2 weeks after Tyler Ennis commits that we've gone from SELECTOR SCHOOL status to a group of gritty ragtags?
 
Of what?
"His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so."

If it's just some fans out there, I could care less what they think. It doesn't even make it worthy of discussion if that is what we are talking about. I can find you fans that think (name your coach) is overrated almost anytime.

If these are comments from knowledgeable basketball people, then I'll pay attention.
 
"His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so."

If it's just some fans out there, I could care less what they think. It doesn't even make it worthy of discussion if that is what we are talking about. I can find you fans that think (name your coach) is overrated almost anytime.

You can survey any message board of any college team and in any discussion of basketball coaches that are overrated JBs name inevetiable comes up, usually because of his shortcomings in the postseason. IE winning in the sweet sixteen five times in 35 years.

http://broadband.espn.go.com/espn3/auth/mobile/auth/login?app=ios_tablet&version=1.6.3&affiliate=twc

We discussed this recently. Boeheim came in seventh in this survey.

You can believe what you want because it's not coming from Jay Bilas twitter feed or whatever. What I'm saying is that it's out there.
 
Best coach in the game. He doesn't do it with a bunch of blue chippers.. he does it with one or two and a bunch of "guys". More than you can say for Roy, Thad or Mike
Does what?

Every year for the past 5 or so we're always top 3 in the Big East as far as recruiting classes go.
 
To determine whether he's "overrated," you have to have a consensus on where he is "rated." I don't think there's an accepted ranking of coaches, only of 'program success,' and that doesn't factor in all the various reasons for those successes.

If you were to ask me the original question, I'd say, unequivocally, 'yes.' And, i base this on what i think other coaches would be able to do WITH THE SAME TEAMS AND PLAYERS. I have never felt JB gets the best performances from the talent we've had. He doesn't motivate them as well as other coaches.

Saying 'we could have made this final four or that final four IF' is a losing argument from the start. Other teams can make the same claims. Saying we could have done something IF AO weren't hurt or IF Fab were eligible is worthy of argument and speculation, but it isn't fact. And, if you allow that, you also have to allow that we would have been bounced before the 96 final IF either Wallace's pass or Cipolla's shot were off by a centimeter. You want to argue we could have 2 NCs IF Coleman makes one more free throw?

What i look at is where we finish within our conference on an average, and in the past 15 years, that's not the top four or five. Not sure how you consider a coach 'elite' if the average conference performance isn't elite.

There are a lot of 'stats' that put conventional thoughts into fans' heads. Total wins, for example. Fans and apologists of the guy will cite that, and his HOF status. But, objective observers aren't putting Lenny Wilkins into similar discussions. Longevity should be valued, but if JB takes his vitamin Gummi every day and coaches another 30 years, does his win total make him even more impressive? At some point, don't you have to watch what he actually DOES? Wins are important. Wins against cupcakes when you recruit with the Carrier Dome... not so impressive.

Look at the schedule every year, and factor in the types of recruits we get. How many of those games SHOULD we win? How often do we actually beat a team with more talent, versus lose to a team with less? In my memory (since the 85-86 season) the skew is not positive. Doesn't mean JB is a bad coach. He's clearly above average. How far above seems to be the crux of the argument. I've never liked JB's style or tactics, and that's only grown worse over time as he's changed to a strictly zone guy. The yearly results range from surprising to maddening. When the team is good, i think the TEAM is good. When the team is bad, sometimes i attribute it to the team and sometimes i consider it's JB not adjusting to what he has.

Let's ask a different question. You're an AD of a university. You have your choice of coaches. You can poach ANY coach you want. How many knowledgeable fans across the country — out of 100 — do you think would choose JB? You've got some people who would choose K or Calipari or Roy, to do the most with the top talent. Guys like Brad Stevens to do the most with the least. Guys like Izzo to maximize talent and play an intense schedule... How many would say i want a guy who will institute an unwavering zone, schedule 'light,' finish from 4th-7th in the conference but occasionally field an exceptional team and bristle with media when asked typical questions.

Don't look at it from a position of insecurity. "Oh, it's upstate new york. He's more than we could ever expect." The college powers in the last 25 years are not from LA, NYC, Miami, Chicago, etc. They're from bumsuck North Carolina. Kentucky. Kansas. East Lansing. Louisville. These are not glam locales, and i would assert that The Dome gives us an advantage over all of those other destinations.
 
You can survey any message board of any college team and in any discussion of basketball coaches that are overrated JBs name inevetiable comes up, usually because of his shortcomings in the postseason. IE winning in the sweet sixteen five times in 35 years.

http://broadband.espn.go.com/espn3/auth/mobile/auth/login?app=ios_tablet&version=1.6.3&affiliate=twc

We discussed this recently. Boeheim came in seventh in this survey.

You can believe what you want because it's not coming from Jay Bilas twitter feed or whatever. What I'm saying is that it's out there.
When you have under 10 losses combined in the last 3 regular seasons and have only made it past the Sweet 16 once and never got ot the Final Four, you should be talked about in the overrated catergory
 
JB is Syracuse. There is no one else who is the icon of an entire city, except maybe Coach K. I think even Coach K would admit he has learned quite a bit from Jimmy. There is no way he is overrated. His teams have had some tough luck in March, but thats not on the coach. Gotta put that on the players.
 
I haven't seen this many moronic posts in a long time. So because he has lost less than 10 games in the last three years he is over rated for not going to the final four but he doesn't get the credit for losing less than 10 games?? Got it. And don't bother to factor in that we went to the tournament with different teams then we played the season with. No center in two of the last three years. I'll make it easy for you guys. He has the best record in the history of the Big East. Start naming the better coaches in the country. You won't get to 10 without really reaching.
 
Pure flame post - simple as that IMHO. JB is one of the best college basketball coaches in history. Anyone who argues otherwise is a moron. I'll take the opinions of his peers and knowledgeable experts who have put him in the hall of fame, voted him coach of the year and gave him the honor of serving as an Olympic coach twice over a bunch of casual fans who think they know better. Let's Go Orange!
 
His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so. His record post NC seems to point in that direction too.

I'm not trying to flame. It's been almost ten years since the national championship and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Personally I think yes, a little.

I should have decided against checking the internet today...
 
I haven't seen this many moronic posts in a long time. So because he has lost less than 10 games in the last three years he is over rated for not going to the final four but he doesn't get the credit for losing less than 10 games?? Got it. And don't bother to factor in that we went to the tournament with different teams then we played the season with. No center in two of the last three years. I'll make it easy for you guys. He has the best record in the history of the Big East. Start naming the better coaches in the country. You won't get to 10 without really reaching.


There are some "debates" which just kill me. Usually I hear this one with the name "Derek Jeter" inserted for Jim Boeheim. The world is full of morons.
 
ahhhhhhhhh its been a while but I guess I had to sign in for this.

What other over rated coach would you prefer?

Yikes! We are a top 10 all time program last I checked and JB has a majority stake in that.

Over rated? What are you rating him? Look at the numbers and you will see thathe is one of the best ever no matter how you want to calculate things. Even if you say just top 50 ever thats in the top 5 or less %ile ever for college coaches.

Point your microscope on every other coach ever an you will find that he is not without his faults as a coach but also probably undervalued altogether rather than over rated.

" NOT TEN EFFIN GAMES! MOTHERTFer" No one else says that in defense of there players! OVERRATED!
 
For me, this is one of those topics that isn't even worthy of debate. You have an opinion and so do I. It doesn't matter what that opinion is because that's how we feel.
JB will never be overrated or underrated for me because I respect the man for what he has done and continues to do. I don't rate him against anyone or anything, so he's just going to be JB doing what he does for Syracuse basketball. For me that's all that counts.
 

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