Is Boeheim overrated?

[AZOrange]

ahhhhhhhhh its been a while but I guess I had to sign in for this.

What other over rated coach would you prefer?

Yikes! We are a top 10 all time program last I checked and JB has a majority stake in that.

Over rated? What are you rating him? Look at the numbers and you will see thathe is one of the best ever no matter how you want to calculate things. Even if you say just top 50 ever thats in the top 5 or less %ile ever for college coaches.

Point your microscope on every other coach ever an you will find that he is not without his faults as a coach but also probably undervalued altogether rather than over rated.

" NOT TEN EFFIN GAMES! MOTHERTFer" No one else says that in defense of there players! OVERRATED!

The really funny part is reading something like "look at the last 10 years since the National Championship"...that statement alone should make the OP rethink the post...give me Thad Matta!

 

[jordoo]

For me, this is one of those topics that isn't even worthy of debate. You have an opinion and so do I. It doesn't matter what that opinion is because that's how we feel.
JB will never be overrated or underrated for me because I respect the man for what he has done and continues to do. I don't rate him against anyone or anything, so he's just going to be JB doing what he does for Syracuse basketball. For me that's all that counts.

Well said! We are SU bball fans which mean many many years of JB (thankfuly)

 

[jordoo]

The really funny part is reading something like "look at the last 10 years since the National Championship"...that statement alone should make the OP rethink the post...give me Thad Matta!

LMOA! And that guy has had a bunch of crazy recruiting classes in the same time frame and has been unable to get an NC.

I will always feel that the Bernie thing cost us that game last year. The NCAA dd not want us and that story in the FF. Ughh one horrible call againt Sullinger is really worth 20 against us?

 

[NKR1978]

All this thread does is prove that Syracuse has a lot of ing idiot "fans."

 

[jdubs30]

Look, JB is a great coach, there is no doubt about that.

I'm talking strictly about March, he has been arguably a top 2 or 3 coach in the regular season lately.

His winning percentage in the tournament is currently 15th among active coaches (with at least 10 games coached), obviously he's coached a ridiculous amount of tourney games so that reflects in his percentage.

(the following are using coaches who were in the 2011 tournament, so some might be missing)

The following have more FF's than JB (more than 3): Coach K, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, Pitino, Calhoun
The following have the same amount of FF's (3): Billy Donovan, Howland, Steve Fisher
Then the coaches who have 2 Final Four's: Stevens, Self, Matta, Huggins

Of these coaches, only Williams and Coach K have coached more games in the tourney. We'd have to assume that Self, Donovan and Matta will get a few more (JB should as well; perhaps Howland).

I love Boeheim and wouldn't trade him for any coach in America at this point, but his performances in March have left more to be desired, especially when you compare it to the other top coaches in America. We've been to the Elite 8 once since 2003 and only been to the Sweet 16 3 times.

 

[jdubs30]

LMOA! And that guy has had a bunch of crazy recruiting classes in the same time frame and has been unable to get an NC.

I will always feel that the Bernie thing cost us that game last year. The NCAA dd not want us and that story in the FF. Ughh one horrible call againt Sullinger is really worth 20 against us?

Agreed that game was dumb, something was definitely up.

 

[dasher]

Look, JB is a great coach, there is no doubt about that.

I'm talking strictly about March, he has been arguably a top 2 or 3 coach in the regular season lately.

His winning percentage in the tournament is currently 15th among active coaches (with at least 10 games coached), obviously he's coached a ridiculous amount of tourney games so that reflects in his percentage.

(the following are using coaches who were in the 2011 tournament, so some might be missing)

The following have more FF's than JB (more than 3): Coach K, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, Pitino, Calhoun
The following have the same amount of FF's (3): Billy Donovan, Howland, Steve Fisher
Then the coaches who have 2 Final Four's: Stevens, Self, Matta, Huggins

Of these coaches, only Williams and Coach K have coached more games in the tourney. We'd have to assume that Self, Donovan and Matta will get a few more (JB should as well; perhaps Howland).

I love Boeheim and wouldn't trade him for any coach in America at this point, but his performances in March have left more to be desired, especially when you compare it to the other top coaches in America. We've been to the Elite 8 once since 2003 and only been to the Sweet 16 3 times.

Cal has been to one final four (last season) when I looked at the record books. K, Pitino, Calhoun and Izzo are all great, Hall of Fame coaches. So what? Donovan will be. I asked before, and I will ask again, name 10 coaches better. There are over 300 D-1 coaches. Surely you can name 10 better if he is overrated.

 

[orangefan13]

If you want to be critical of one loss each year in march, then you have to be critical of who you loss to, how you matched up, injuries, and all the circumstances as well.

Heres the last 21 years...
From 1992-93 to 2003-04 a period of 13 years the best we had was one 3 seed. We had a 4 seed 3 times in those 11 years and had 8 tournament appearences. We met or exceeded the seed standard in all of those 13 years except one loosing to a 9 as a 8 in the first round big whoop. We also superseeded the standards by going to a championship game in 1995-96 as a 4 seed, and winning it all in 02-03 as a 3 seed and probably a few other times.


Now thets do the 8 years after...
in 04-05 to 011-2012 a period of 8 years, we have had two NIT's and 6 tournaments. In 5 of the 6 tournaments we did not meet our seed with the 08-09 flynn team being the exception who played a really good OU team.

However you also have to consider the circumstances of the 5 tournament teams that didn't meet their seed.
I throw these out there more for those who don't know syracuse then the ones that do.

In 09-10 we had no AO, changing our offense and forcing Rick out of his low post game. The loss of AO was huge.
In 011-12 we had no Fab Melo and OSU shot 44 freebies, while 4 of our key guys had 4 fouls with 12 minutes left in the game. We still made a elite 8 and lost to probably the best 2 seed not really missing the mark to bad. We played the one two seed that gave us the worst matchup front with our rebounding woes. If we got the Fab news earlier maybe that never happens.

In 05-06 gerry was hurt in the ncaa tournament that said it all right there. We made a miracle run just to make the tournament, and the team was pretty spent. Without gerry who shot 0-6 from the field while injured the offense just couldn't get going.

The marquette loss and the vermont loss I won't throw out any excuses but UM was a pretty solid team We lost to that marq. team earlier in the season and I don't believe they were a great matchup. Would much rather of played cincy, nova, gtown, maybe even Pitt who was a one seed that year in march. We had 18 turnovers all year we averaged 12.3

The vermont loss i won't waste my time. Just a awfull performance.

Those are the last 21 years for you though.
I think alot of seasons we are 1-2 pieces short of a final four. AO and Fab were on those lists in recent memories. I also feel the zone is best with 4 ready guards, and atleast 5 in the backline in case of injury. This year we have 3 guards and 6 in the backline, maybe we can make southerland or Grant a SG for a few minutes. Besides, Its about waiting your turn. Thats what it means to be elite.

 

[jdubs30]

Cal has been to one final four (last season) when I looked at the record books. K, Pitino, Calhoun and Izzo are all great, Hall of Fame coaches. So what? Donovan will be. I asked before, and I will ask again, name 10 coaches better. There are over 300 D-1 coaches. Surely you can name 10 better if he is overrated.

Maybe I should clarify this.

I see JB as a top 3 coach in the game right now (at least, that's how I think everyone else sees him), I don't think his March's justify that. However I do think he is top 6 (or so) regardless. There is NO doubt he is in the top 10.

Being overrated is relative. Do I think he's overrated if someone tell me he's top 3? Yes. Do I think he's overrated if someone puts him in the top 6? Absolutely not

 

[cto]

My head is spinning from this thread. I will say just three things.

1) Coach K said he would not coach the Olympic team this year unless JB was his assistant coach. That's a pretty good endorsement for me.

2) At some point this season, JB will become the third coach ever with 900 wins

3) A few games later this season, he will become the second coach ever with 903 wins.

I rest my case

 

[jdubs30]

If you want to be critical of one loss each year in march, then you have to be critical of who you loss to, how you matched up, injuries, and all the circumstances as well.

Heres the last 21 years...
From 1992-93 to 2003-04 a period of 13 years the best we had was one 3 seed. We had a 4 seed 3 times in those 11 years and had 8 tournament appearences. We met or exceeded the seed standard in all of those 13 years except one loosing to a 9 as a 8 in the first round big whoop. We also superseeded the standards by going to a championship game in 1995-96 as a 4 seed, and winning it all in 02-03 as a 3 seed and probably a few other times.


Now thets do the 8 years after...
in 04-05 to 011-2012 a period of 8 years, we have had two NIT's and 6 tournaments. In 5 of the 6 tournaments we did not meet our seed with the 08-09 flynn team being the exception who played a really good OU team.

However you also have to consider the circumstances of the 5 tournament teams that didn't meet their seed.
I throw these out there more for those who don't know syracuse then the ones that do.

In 09-10 we had no AO, changing our offense and forcing Rick out of his low post game. The loss of AO was huge.
In 011-12 we had no Fab Melo and OSU shot 44 freebies, while 4 of our key guys had 4 fouls with 12 minutes left in the game. We still made a elite 8 and lost to probably the best 2 seed not really missing the mark to bad. We played the one two seed that gave us the worst matchup front with our rebounding woes. If we got the Fab news earlier maybe that never happens.

In 05-06 gerry was hurt in the ncaa tournament that said it all right there. We made a miracle run just to make the tournament, and the team was pretty spent. Without gerry who shot 0-6 from the field while injured the offense just couldn't get going.

The marquette loss and the vermont loss I won't throw out any excuses but UM was a pretty solid team We lost to that marq. team earlier in the season and I don't believe they were a great matchup. Would much rather of played cincy, nova, gtown, maybe even Pitt who was a one seed that year in march. We had 18 turnovers all year we averaged 12.3

The vermont loss i won't waste my time. Just a awfull performance.

Those are the last 21 years for you though.
I think alot of seasons we are 1-2 pieces short of a final four. AO and Fab were on those lists in recent memories. I also feel the zone is best with 4 ready guards, and atleast 5 in the backline in case of injury. This year we have 3 guards and 6 in the backline, maybe we can make southerland or Grant a SG for a few minutes. Besides, Its about waiting your turn. Thats what it means to be elite.

Every team has circumstances like this, not just Syracuse; I definitely agree with you about the "1-2 pieces short of a Final Four" statement (the OSU game was bullcrap and Butler was just excruciating), but if we really look back and look around college basketball a lot of teams can make that argument, so I was just going off numbers as as oppose to "what ifs"

 

[orangefan13]

Every team has circumstances like this, not just Syracuse; I definitely agree with you about the "1-2 pieces short of a Final Four" statement (the OSU game was bullcrap and Butler was just excruciating), but if we really look back and look around college basketball a lot of teams can make that argument, so I was just going off numbers as as oppose to "what ifs"

Agree, but at the same time other teams aren't going to have that happen to them every time they get a one seed either and that does count for something.

 

[jdubs30]

Agree, but at the same time other teams aren't going to have that happen to them every time they get a one seed either and that does count for something.

Also true, good point.

This is just a fun argument as we wait for basketball season to start. I love JB and wouldn't trade him for anything, I don't want anyone to think otherwise.

 

[orangefan13]

I enjoy your tough love.
It shows you have higher standards just like all the fans with best interests.
If we going to win might as well of deserved it, or atleast deserved ot share it like the football game today.

 

[cusetown1]

First off can we ban this chicken little crap? After he wins another one this year, let's hope these threads never come up again.

 

[br801]

For me, this is one of those topics that isn't even worthy of debate. You have an opinion and so do I. It doesn't matter what that opinion is because that's how we feel.
JB will never be overrated or underrated for me because I respect the man for what he has done and continues to do. I don't rate him against anyone or anything, so he's just going to be JB doing what he does for Syracuse basketball. For me that's all that counts.

Amen. That's best post I've read on this very tired topic.

What I find most amazing is that someone saw fit to start this thread a few hours before the football opener.

 

[PoppyHart]

Don't people realize that statements like "over-rated" or "under-rated" are merely balancing acts between perception and reality? It's analogous to the saying "you're never as good as you think when things are going well, or as bad when things are not."

If the perception among a particular group at a particular time (say Cuse fans with 2:00 minutes remaining today) was that Nassib was an All-American QB, he'd be over-rated. Not because he had a bad game by any means, but b/c the bar was set unrealistically high. You can still be a superstar, elite, great, choose your adjective, and still be over-rated people.

If JB is perceived as the G.O.A.T., he's over-rated. If he's perceived as a bum, he's under-rated. Within those parameters, there's light years of grey area.

So, to summarize, in this instance. it all revolves around the baseline perception of JB

 

[alibrat66]

My opinion (this matter is subjective) is that JB is underrated. If one weighs his overall body of work (stated accurately and succinctly in an earlier post on this thread by CTO), he has done more with less than practically any of his peers. Two very bad breaks leading up to the tournament probably cost him two NCs in the past few years. Not to mention a Keith Smart jump shot.

In the final analysis, and considering what SU had done overall in the period before he took over, my opinion is somewhat biased; I suffered through the lean years. Since JB has been at the helm, Syracuse University basketball has always excited me and brought me immense pride in my alma mater's hoops program. I honestly don't care what anyone else thinks, or how JB is rated by them.

 

[Hoov50]

To be overrated wouldn't it mean the average fan thinks highly of him? Other than our fan base and hardcore basketball fans I think the average fan doesn't think that highly of him for the reasons that have been mentioned. Therefore he cannot be overrated because most don't have him rated that high to begin with.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

This is a guy that should have 4 titles in his pocket right now. That is what everyone will remember when the smoke clears and he retires. He basically has 1 title with an asterisk that says, "Should have 4"

 

[br801]

This is a guy that should have 4 titles in his pocket right now. That is what everyone will remember when the smoke clears and he retires. He basically has 1 title with an asterisk that says, "Should have 4"

That's what some SU fans may choose to remember (particularly those who measure success solely by championships won), but it won't be his legacy among most fans of the program and for college basketball fans in general. He will long be remembered as a coaching icon who achieved an unprecedented record of consistent excellence.

 

[DoctorBombay]

In the eyes of casual basketball fans.

Who are these "casual" fans you speak of?

"You are, what your record says you are". -Bill Parcells-

 

[rstone7727]

He's had ten players drafted by count since 2003
Carmelo
Warrick
NIchols
Greene
Flynn
Wes
Fab
Kjo
Dion
Rautins

I can't remember if Watkins was drafted.

I think some would argue that Syracuse players don't do well in the NBA because they're so poor defensively, with the exception of Jason Hart.

Kentucky has had 24 players selected (12 in the 1st round) since 2003. And since 2003, Kentucky has one NCAA title, SU also has one NCAA title... I guess Calipari is over rated huh?

Not one ' game!
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/careernba.html

 

[RF2044]

This is a guy that should have 4 titles in his pocket right now. That is what everyone will remember when the smoke clears and he retires. He basically has 1 title with an asterisk that says, "Should have 4"

What a compelling argument.

 

[orangefan13]

We have MCW, Xmas, Dajuan Coleman as all americans, CJ Fair, Teveror Cooney, Grant, a senior Triche and Southerland this season, and this is our big thread of the last two nights, really?

Can't wait for November.