Melo getting D Rose

[OrangeDW]

Rose hasn't been an elite PG in about 5 years. That guy is gone and he's not coming back.

Agreed. He was relatively healthy last year. He's not the same player.

That said,he's still a lot better than what the Knicks had at the position. Maybe the change of scenery, playing with Melo, playing for Hornacek, not playing with Butler all helps his game and he has a solid year.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm not sure they play much better than 500. Obviously we need to see what else they do, but I don't think Rose is any good, I don't think he's a plus to the team.



I'm just basically betting the over on all contracts at this point. You could be right though. I'd rather have Robin Lopez on his contract than Dwight on whatever he signs for though.

Rose not a plus to the team? Are you saying the Knicks should have picked up a different PG or saying the existing guards could have done the job? Calderon needs to just retire, he's so bad. Galloway isn't starter caliber, and neither is/was Wroten. Grant wasn't ready either. I'd have to say Rose is a plus over these guys.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Rose hasn't been an elite PG in about 5 years. That guy is gone and he's not coming back.

He doesn't have to be elite. Providing 16 and 6, with 1.5 steals is still solid as heck.

 

[orangefog]

If Rose can be really good again, this will be the year. This is a contract year, he will give it all he has.

 

[CusefanATL]

how about an Al horford if they can get in to make sense.

i think D Rose in his contract year, will be back. Just need him to avg like 17 and 6 or 7, melo 25, 7, 3, and porzingis 17 and 10.

 

[Knicks411]

Rose not a plus to the team? Are you saying the Knicks should have picked up a different PG or saying the existing guards could have done the job? Calderon needs to just retire, he's so bad. Galloway isn't starter caliber, and neither is/was Wroten. Grant wasn't ready either. I'd have to say Rose is a plus over these guys.

I'm saying they should have picked a different PG and not given away a solid player on a good contract. I don't love Galloway, but I'm not sure how much better Rose is than Galloway at this point. Well I do know Rose is better at being an MVP 5 years ago, but aside from that.

He doesn't have to be elite. Providing 16 and 6, with 1.5 steals is still solid as heck.

Sure but they gave away Lopez, who was an asset.

Maybe i can't be rational about t his but I think this is pretty much a terrible trade. I don't think Rose is any good anymore. Lopez was an asset they gave away and now they're likely going to spend more to replace him and/or get a worse player by spending less. The only way this trade could get any worse is if Rose plays well enough for the Knicks to bring him back.

(I'm feisty right now)

 

[Melancer46]

Can't believe the Knicks got the bulls to take Lopez's contract. He's due 42 million over the next 3 years.

I can only assume someone else pointed this out by now, but Lopez's contract is valuable in the new salary cap. $14 million for a legit starting center is a good thing. The Knicks will have to replace him by paying a likely worse player more money.

 

[Melancer46]

If Rose doesn't improve from last year's play, he's just an inefficient chucker at this point. BPM, VORP, WS/48, etc. all believe that Calderon was better than Rose last year. Rose was less efficient scoring the ball than MCW, except he took a lot of shots and doesn't provide anything else. Even when he was "good" down the stretch, his TS% was only 52% (for comparison's sake, MCW is at about 50% and Calderon was at 57%.

If the move was simply about trying to have as much cap space as possible for next year's free agents class, I can get it, but in that case, signing Dwight or Joakim Noah to long-term deals (and undoubtedly more money than Robin Lopez was getting) makes no sense.

 

[Knicks411]

I can only assume someone else pointed this out by now, but Lopez's contract is valuable in the new salary cap. $14 million for a legit starting center is a good thing. The Knicks will have to replace him by paying a likely worse player more money.

Between this board and texts with friends, I may have pointed this out once or twice.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm saying they should have picked a different PG and not given away a solid player on a good contract. I don't love Galloway, but I'm not sure how much better Rose is than Galloway at this point. Well I do know Rose is better at being an MVP 5 years ago, but aside from that.



Sure but they gave away Lopez, who was an asset.

Maybe i can't be rational about t his but I think this is pretty much a terrible trade. I don't think Rose is any good anymore. Lopez was an asset they gave away and now they're likely going to spend more to replace him and/or get a worse player by spending less. The only way this trade could get any worse is if Rose plays well enough for the Knicks to bring him back.

(I'm feisty right now)

I like feisty debates. I take it you're not going to change your opinion about Rose, so I'll leave that alone. We'll agree to disagree there, but we can debate the value of Lopez and the potential replacements.

First, Lopez is an average center. Not great, not bad, average. He can't do a whole lot on offense other than that awkward hook shot and doesn't shoot a great percentage for a Center. He has no game away from the hoop, is a liability against quicker or 'stretch' Centers, and lacks athleticism. His replacement might not improve all of these areas but will likely improve most. I don't know the Knick's plan, but I don't think KP at Center is going to be the answer. So, they likely made this trade knowing they'd be going after a good FA Center.

Dwight Howard or Whiteside would be game-changers, imo. Dwight's getting old but he still has freak athleticism and drops baskets at over a 60% clip (at the expense of FT shooting obviously). Whiteside isn't as polished on offense, but he's arguably the best defensive Center in the league. He said he wouldn't leave the Heat unless it was to go to a winner. The trio of Rose, Melo, and KP could be a convincing argument.

I don't think Noah would be a good option. He's pretty comparable to Lopez though, and I think they could get him on a similar contract.

Gasol is old as dirt but he's played in the system Phil wants to run a hybrid of and he would be a great mentor for KP. Gasol can still get you some points, too, and wouldn't cost the team a max deal.

With the cap change, the money isn't as big a deal right now. As others have said, Rose only has a year left. So if he doesn't pan out, the Knicks can go a different direction (maybe Westbrook) with the cap space that will be available from Rose's departure. If he does work out, then that's gravy. The PG free agent class this year is not strong.

 

[Brooky03]

If Rose doesn't improve from last year's play, he's just an inefficient chucker at this point. BPM, VORP, WS/48, etc. all believe that Calderon was better than Rose last year. Rose was less efficient scoring the ball than MCW, except he took a lot of shots and doesn't provide anything else. Even when he was "good" down the stretch, his TS% was only 52% (for comparison's sake, MCW is at about 50% and Calderon was at 57%.

If the move was simply about trying to have as much cap space as possible for next year's free agents class, I can get it, but in that case, signing Dwight or Joakim Noah to long-term deals (and undoubtedly more money than Robin Lopez was getting) makes no sense.

Calderon was terrible on defense, though. I admittedly haven't looked at Rose's defensive stats, but he simply cannot be a worse defender than Calderon was. It's just not possible. Anything Calderon did on offense was immediately negated by the old, arthritic man trying to bend his knees and move laterally without falling over and dying on the defensive end. Rose on one knee is probably significantly quicker than Calderon on two.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Lopez is a slightly above average C on what will look like a good contract. So I don't want to make it look like he's an all star. He's not. If they decided, for whatever reason, Lopez didn't fit the style of play they wanted to go with, I can accept that. But his contract was an asset and they could have got something back for him.

I would very much like to get Whiteside. No interest in Dwight. I don't think they're going to get Whiteside, so likely what's going to happen is next summer they'll need to find both a PG and a C.

 

[Gabjon]

The Knicks starting center next year. Played with KP in Europe and knows Pao from the Spain national team.

 

[Melancer46]

Calderon was terrible on defense, though. I admittedly haven't looked at Rose's defensive stats, but he simply cannot be a worse defender than Calderon was. It's just not possible. Anything Calderon did on offense was immediately negated by the old, arthritic man trying to bend his knees and move laterally without falling over and dying on the defensive end. Rose on one knee is probably significantly quicker than Calderon on two.

He isn't worse defensively, but he was never good defensively and is worse now given the loss of some of his athleticism. VORP, BPM, and WS/48 is factoring defense in though, and the WS/48 believes Calderon is 10 times more valuable lol. Rose quite literally had one of the worst seasons for a starter at any position, all-time. I think he'll be better this year, but this isn't exactly a "win-now" kind of move, or at least it shouldn't be.

 

[Brooky03]

I think Lopez is a slightly above average C on what will look like a good contract. So I don't want to make it look like he's an all star. He's not. If they decided, for whatever reason, Lopez didn't fit the style of play they wanted to go with, I can accept that. But his contract was an asset and they could have got something back for him.

I would very much like to get Whiteside. No interest in Dwight. I don't think they're going to get Whiteside, so likely what's going to happen is next summer they'll need to find both a PG and a C.

From a quick search, an average NBA center gets you 13ppg, 7rpg, and 1.2 blocks on a 52% TS% and 71% FT%, for about $5M per year. Lopez gave the Knicks 10, 7, and 1.6 on a TS% of 57% and went 80% from the charity stripe. His free throw shooting is really his only asset, bolstering his efficiency, but it's doesn't translate to a big impact on the court because he doesn't put up enough attempts to get fouled enough for it to really matter. At a $13M salary, I don't think he's as much of a bargain as you're suggesting.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I'm saying they should have picked a different PG and not given away a solid player on a good contract. I don't love Galloway, but I'm not sure how much better Rose is than Galloway at this point. Well I do know Rose is better at being an MVP 5 years ago, but aside from that.



Sure but they gave away Lopez, who was an asset.

Maybe i can't be rational about t his but I think this is pretty much a terrible trade. I don't think Rose is any good anymore. Lopez was an asset they gave away and now they're likely going to spend more to replace him and/or get a worse player by spending less. The only way this trade could get any worse is if Rose plays well enough for the Knicks to bring him back.

(I'm feisty right now)

the Lopez thing is what really frustrates me too.

could care less about grant, and calderon??..thank you for taking him, but lopez stings a bit.

heres to lightening in a bottle with him, and everyone should buy stock in athletic tape.

 

[sufandu]

Funny how Melo got blasted by many for not going to Chicago, and now some of those same people will blast the Knicks for getting Rose and Noah. They wont see the contradiction either because...H0T Takes!!!

It'S not exactly the same. Part of the criticism was that Melo was passing up the opportunity to play for an already successful team with an established highly respected coach that played elite defense and needed an elite offensive player. This is adding aging pieces to a crappy team that is still trying to figure out what it is. I hope it works out because I want to see Melo win, but his window is closing and by the time Phil figures it all out, if he figures it out, Melo may be relegated to being a role player. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but it's different watching one of your favorite players win as a role player than it is as the centerpiece.

 

[Melancer46]

From a quick search, an average NBA center gets you 13ppg, 7rpg, and 1.2 blocks on a 52% TS% and 71% FT%, for about $5M per year. Lopez gave the Knicks 10, 7, and 1.6 on a TS% of 57% and went 80% from the charity stripe. His free throw shooting is really his only asset, bolstering his efficiency, but it's doesn't translate to a big impact on the court because he doesn't put up enough attempts to get fouled enough for it to really matter. At a $13M salary, I don't think he's as much of a bargain as you're suggesting.

Most of the things Lopez brings to a team aren't really box score stats. Setting good screens, boxing his guy out so that his teammates can grab rebounds, simply being in the right positions defensively, etc. And the guys that are being talked about as replacements are Howard and Noah. Howard will cost roughly $30 million while being a slight upgrade if an upgrade at all at this point in his career, and Noah will probably cost more money than Lopez while being a downgrade.

 

[Brooky03]

He isn't worse defensively, but he was never good defensively and is worse now given the loss of some of his athleticism. VORP, BPM, and WS/48 is factoring defense in though, and the WS/48 believes Calderon is 10 times more valuable lol. Rose quite literally had one of the worst seasons for a starter at any position, all-time. I think he'll be better this year, but this isn't exactly a "win-now" kind of move, or at least it shouldn't be.

That's the thing; you're talking about Rose from last year, with the assumption he won't return to anything close to his previous production. I'm looking at Rose in terms of what he can bring if he gets anywhere close to what he was early in his career (which is far from improbable). I won't trash the advanced stats, because anytime somebody does they get chastised for it because we all know advanced stats are flawless, but there is no world where a team with Calderon and otherwise equal parts beats the same team but with Rose in Calderon's place.

I guess we'll see this season who was right.

 

[Melancer46]

That's the thing; you're talking about Rose from last year, with the assumption he won't return to anything close to his previous production. I'm looking at Rose in terms of what he can bring if he gets anywhere close to what he was early in his career (which is far from improbable). I won't trash the advanced stats, because anytime somebody does they get chastised for it because we all know advanced stats are flawless, but there is no world where a team with Calderon and otherwise equal parts beats the same team but with Rose in Calderon's place.

I guess we'll see this season who was right.

So the best case scenario is what exactly? Rose plays at a border-line all-star level, the Knicks sneak into the playoffs for a first round exit, end up with the 15th pick instead of a top 10 pick, and then either give Rose, a ticking time bomb, a ton of money to stay, or let him walk for nothing? Like I said, I can at least understand the trade if the whole point is simply to let Rose expire and have basically no money guaranteed to anyone besides Melo and Porzingis for the following season, but if the plan is to build around Rose and Dwight/Noah as long term pieces, this is an awful plan.

Edit: It's been five years since Rose was a good NBA player. The likelihood that he's suddenly good again is not very high.

 

[Knicks411]

That's the thing; you're talking about Rose from last year, with the assumption he won't return to anything close to his previous production. I'm looking at Rose in terms of what he can bring if he gets anywhere close to what he was early in his career (which is far from improbable). I won't trash the advanced stats, because anytime somebody does they get chastised for it because we all know advanced stats are flawless, but there is no world where a team with Calderon and otherwise equal parts beats the same team but with Rose in Calderon's place.

I guess we'll see this season who was right.

The thing is, Rose hasn't been anything close to that player for 4 years. I really don't see it as a gamble worth taking.

Most of the things Lopez brings to a team aren't really box score stats. Setting good screens, boxing his guy out so that his teammates can grab rebounds, simply being in the right positions defensively, etc. And the guys that are being talked about as replacements are Howard and Noah. Howard will cost roughly $30 million while being a slight upgrade if an upgrade at all at this point in his career, and Noah will probably cost more money than Lopez while being a downgrade.

The Knicks were one of the best teams in the league last year for defensive FG% at the rim. Lopez was a big part of that.

 

[CraigForth]

That's the thing; you're talking about Rose from last year, with the assumption he won't return to anything close to his previous production. I'm looking at Rose in terms of what he can bring if he gets anywhere close to what he was early in his career (which is far from improbable). I won't trash the advanced stats, because anytime somebody does they get chastised for it because we all know advanced stats are flawless, but there is no world where a team with Calderon and otherwise equal parts beats the same team but with Rose in Calderon's place.

I guess we'll see this season who was right.

Even last year's D Rose is an upgrade to the knicks backcourt. I really like Galloway too, not trying to beat up on him, but he doesn't make a defense have to think about how to defend him. Melo and Porzingis will space the floor and D Rose is still athletic enough to be able to capitalize.

 

[Brooky03]

Most of the things Lopez brings to a team aren't really box score stats. Setting good screens, boxing his guy out so that his teammates can grab rebounds, simply being in the right positions defensively, etc. And the guys that are being talked about as replacements are Howard and Noah. Howard will cost roughly $30 million while being a slight upgrade if an upgrade at all at this point in his career, and Noah will probably cost more money than Lopez while being a downgrade.

Based on Noah's production and salary the last two seasons, any increase over Lopez's salary would be marginal and a result of the increased cap. Noah would be a really bad move, though, so I hope the Knicks go a different direction. As is the case with Rose, we also fundamentally disagree on the value left in Howard's tank. Howard will get paid a lot of money, no doubt. I don't think he'll get max, but it will be substantial. However, for that money, you get a very efficient scorer with size and plenty of athleticism left, who teams actually have to gameplan for on both ends of the court. As much as I loved watching Lopez play and do the little things, nobody gameplanned for him.

The Knicks need impact players, not a bunch of players who contribute to a position by committee or add value in ways that don't show up in the boxscore.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Between this board and texts with friends, I may have pointed this out once or twice.

ive stole it and used it in conversation and texts as well.

its an extremely good point.

rose and the new 5's salary > calderon, grant and lopez

its already subtraction by addition

and lord knows what rose's game count will be...

 

[OrangeDW]

It'S not exactly the same. Part of the criticism was that Melo was passing up the opportunity to play for an already successful team with an established highly respected coach that played elite defense and needed an elite offensive player. This is adding aging pieces to a crappy team that is still trying to figure out what it is. I hope it works out because I want to see Melo win, but his window is closing and by the time Phil figures it all out, if he figures it out, Melo may be relegated to being a role player. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, but it's different watching one of your favorite players win as a role player than it is as the centerpiece.

It's not exactly the same, but point is when those Bulls were considered so "loaded", Rose and Noah were two of the first three names everyone mentioned. That was two years ago. So either those guys are really good pickups for the Knicks...or the Bulls situation wasnt quite as great as many tried to hype it up to be(that's my opinon...i had no confidence Rose would be back, and expected Noah to come back to earth)