Mick Cronin says...

[IthacaMatt]

That is silly. The B12 has no plans for Louisville that don't also include an ACC team. Even if they did it is Louisville, who cares they add no value to the B12. You really think we should make our decision over the battle for the almighty Louisville?

Not true. Louisville & BYU would be their first choice pair.

Taking into account that the ACC football teams who are mentioned with the Big 12 are all pining for a spot in the SEC. That's the only place they will go.

That's why the Big 12's best options are Louisville to partner WVU, and BYU, since it's in one of the fastest growing states, has its own regional network, etc.

 

[ImperialOrange]

That is silly. The B12 has no plans for Louisville that don't also include an ACC team. Even if they did it is Louisville, who cares they add no value to the B12. You really think we should make our decision over the battle for the almighty Louisville?

The big 12 almost took lville over wvu. They didnt really differentiate between them. The lville athletic department makes piles of money now, no reason to think that wouldnt increase with a better league affiliation.

The addition would work for football, basketball, and fan attendence. The only real question is if the acc will look past their academics which are improving but not yet where they would like.

 

[SmilinBob]

Just taking a step back and looking at actual results I'd say Louisville, UConn and Cincy would be nice additions for football and basketball but the ACC is about more than just sports so this should be interesting. If UConn makes a good football hire for their HC they could be a very solid team, with P they will be a 8-4 at best to 4-8 type team.

 

[OrangeHeel]

As a Carolina grad I'm biased, but King O has it right about UNC. It's the one school that can keep the ACC viable because of the schools that want to be with them.

Along these lines one important thing is overlooked. Unlike all the other alpha dogs, UNC is a basketball first school. Love football; worship hoops. I don't believe Carolina will chase more money at the expense of hoops. There are no financial issues & the recent embarrassments also make a move difficult if not impossible.

Having said the above, I'll probably wake up tomorrow to learn Carolina has bolted to make it the PAC 13.


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[SmilinBob]

As a Carolina grad I'm biased, but King O has it right about UNC. It's the one school that can keep the ACC viable because of the schools that want to be with them.

Along these lines one important thing is overlooked. Unlike all the other alpha dogs, UNC is a basketball first school. Love football; worship hoops. I don't believe Carolina will chase more money at the expense of hoops. There are no financial issues & the recent embarrassments also make a move difficult if not impossible.

Having said the above, I'll probably wake up tomorrow to learn Carolina has bolted to make it the PAC 13.


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As a Carolina grad, what are your feelings about Swofford and his NC background? Would he be a NC first and ACC second or out for the ACC first? Something about him I just do not trust.

 

[arbitragegls]

This provides me an opportunity to just chat...NOT REPORT sources. So I really enjoy the intelligence of our posters. The fact is, this has gotten to be as much a media turf war as an athletic/academic one. For example the B1G is taking heat for taking Maryland...well academically and research wise it fits...as a vengeful act to payback Notre Dame for associating with the ACC and the Orange Bowl for not committing 100% to B1G...it smells...and B1G fans are not happy but Fox and the BTN are happy.
So we come to the ACC...is it one spot- Maryland's to fill or will there be 2-4 more teams leaving...and how important is it to get up to 15 teams leaving a potential spot for Notre Dame (but only if Notre Dame has indicated in writing it will join in next few years--this is from source).
So here are my thoughts:
1. Louisville necessary to placate FSU--bridge to ND geographically
2. Uconn because of northeast, nyc, and academics with vg bball
3. Cincy...academics good, sports teams getting better, and--bridge to ND geographically
..and 1, 2, 3 may be way to 15 (if addl teams leave) while waiting for Notre Dame and blocks Big 12 in a certain geographic area--Ohio Valley.

but you all know this...so here goes a whopper:
4. UCF and USF...if eyeballs are the game and ESPN needs a real reason to upgrade the ACC contract, these two teams combined are the 4th or 5th-depending on how its measured--TV market in the US--Tampa and Orlando. It would solidify Florida and potentially lesson any pressure on ACC if FSU leaves...otherwise it locks up the state of Florida. And before you laugh off either university, let it be known that UCF is one of the 2 largest universities in the US...that is a lot of eyeballs...and USF has the facilities and desire to be big time.

As of late last night, ESPN and ACC and ABC and Disney were still talking...and remember it isnt athletic directors that make the decisions, it is Presidents and BOT that do...so what is important to them...ACADEMICS AND MONEY...what order I do not know...

 

[OrangeHeel]

As a Carolina grad, what are your feelings about Swofford and his NC background? Would he be a NC first and ACC second or out for the ACC first? Something about him I just do not trust.

I don't think he would have lasted this long if he was "all Carolina all the time". The reality of the ACC is the NC four school base.

I think the more troubling aspect of Swofford is his dealings with Raycom & his son's position there. As a guy otherwise called a visionary by some, it's interesting he swung & missed on the conference network thing unless you factor in Junior.


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[SmilinBob]

Arbit, could a conference that is already too Carolina centric afford to be too much in two states like Florida and NC? I think the lack of national exposure is what is hurting the ACC and getting Kentucky, Connecticut and Ohio involved may help that. I realize it didn't really help the big east but too many just said the big east sucks right out of hand so it just didn't have a chance to build up a rep so to speak.

 

[SmilinBob]

I don't think he would have lasted this long if he was "all Carolina all the time". The reality of the ACC is the NC four school base.

I think the more troubling aspect of Swofford is his dealings with Raycom & his son's position there. As a guy otherwise called a visionary by some, it's interesting he swung & missed on the conference network thing unless you factor in Junior.


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The Raycom debacle is what worries me when it comes to loyalty and when push comes to shove, where will he hang his hat. As you know NCS complains as much as FSU and VT when it comes to favoritism. They are the red haired step child.

 

[KaiserUEO]

How is it that adding RU "locks up" NY//NJ? They have been in the Big East for 20+ years and I haven't noticed any locking up of anything.

Really. Please explain to me how Rutgers could have such low (demonstrated and proven over 20 years) impact and value to the Big East but it is now going to be valuable to the ACC?

Rutgers value to the Big Ten is based on the BTN and local cable subscribers. Since the ACC doesn't have a similar network than RU's value was based on the school, the athletic program, the fan base, etc and RU was found wanting.

their value lies in the 3 rules of real estate...location, location, location.

plus, adding them wouldve kept the b1g, OUT.

not having new jersey, one of the best football producing states in the country, one that is right on the goddamn Atlantic, makes the ACC look bush league and petty. makes them look like a poster here who just says...'yeah, but rutgers football sucks'. well no kidding arsehole, but who cares? this is about $$$$ and putting down stakes.

the b1g took a look rutgers, looked at their 'value based on the school, the athletic program, the fan base, etc and RU was found' to be wanted.

simply put, they are bigger and smarter than the ACC, and clearly you as well.

and where is it written that the ACC never will have its own little network?

 

[kingottoiii]

The big 12 almost took lville over wvu. They didnt really differentiate between them. The lville athletic department makes piles of money now, no reason to think that wouldnt increase with a better league affiliation.

The addition would work for football, basketball, and fan attendence. The only real question is if the acc will look past their academics which are improving but not yet where they would like.

They almost took UL because they were desperate for #10. They will not expand for just UL. If they take FSU, and a few other ACC schools then UL is in. Having UL in the ACC doesn't prevent that.

 

[Townie72]

This provides me an opportunity to just chat...NOT REPORT sources. So I really enjoy the intelligence of our posters. The fact is, this has gotten to be as much a media turf war as an athletic/academic one. For example the B1G is taking heat for taking Maryland...well academically and research wise it fits...as a vengeful act to payback Notre Dame for associating with the ACC and the Orange Bowl for not committing 100% to B1G...it smells...and B1G fans are not happy but Fox and the BTN are happy.
So we come to the ACC...is it one spot- Maryland's to fill or will there be 2-4 more teams leaving...and how important is it to get up to 15 teams leaving a potential spot for Notre Dame (but only if Notre Dame has indicated in writing it will join in next few years--this is from source).
So here are my thoughts:
1. Louisville necessary to placate FSU--bridge to ND geographically
2. Uconn because of northeast, nyc, and academics with vg bball
3. Cincy...academics good, sports teams getting better, and--bridge to ND geographically
..and 1, 2, 3 may be way to 15 (if addl teams leave) while waiting for Notre Dame and blocks Big 12 in a certain geographic area--Ohio Valley.

but you all know this...so here goes a whopper:
4. UCF and USF...if eyeballs are the game and ESPN needs a real reason to upgrade the ACC contract, these two teams combined are the 4th or 5th-depending on how its measured--TV market in the US--Tampa and Orlando. It would solidify Florida and potentially lesson any pressure on ACC if FSU leaves...otherwise it locks up the state of Florida. And before you laugh off either university, let it be known that UCF is one of the 2 largest universities in the US...that is a lot of eyeballs...and USF has the facilities and desire to be big time.

As of late last night, ESPN and ACC and ABC and Disney were still talking...and remember it isnt athletic directors that make the decisions, it is Presidents and BOT that do...so what is important to them...ACADEMICS AND MONEY...what order I do not know...

I like this. It's well thought out and logical. But it's hard way to get to a good answer.

What you are doing is to list the available or possible schools and then assessing each against a different set of criteria. That makes comparison very difficult.

What you have to do is to:

1. Determine what the strategy is.
2. Determine what the criteria need to be to fulfill the strategy
3. Compare each alternative against the criteria

It's relatively easy to determine what the strategy was and what the criteria were after the fact. Consider the B1G moves of the last couple of years. The strategy was first to add schools that improve the "watchability"and "National TV appeal" of overall product first (Nebraska). So the criteria used in this case centered around the reputation of the teams. They would have liked to have continued along that path by adding ND and maybe some others, but they ran out of good possibilities. Especially when ND joined the ACC for all but football.

The next step in the strategy was to expand cable revenue and that meant total cable subscribers. (They abandoned "quality" and went for "money". The criteria they used sorted out two "Eastern" schools (lots of cable subcribers, large, AAU members, etc), who were very likely to jump at B1G membership because they were both in huge financial holes even after cutting 5+ sports partially due to stadium expansion and low overall ticket sales. Rutgers had the extra incentive of being left behind in all previous expansions because about all it offered was lots of nearby cable subscribers (who were watching anything but RU athletics)

So what are the strategies that the ACC might follow?

I would think (from Press reports) that one of the strategic planks has to be tending to the interests of the football-centric schools (Clemson, FSU, Miami). But since the ACC is the ACC, they are in a box because the better available football schools (now and in the future) appear to be commuter schools with weak academics.

I'm certain tht Swofford is suggesting Louisville and UNC and Duke and Wake are looking at UL like they would "something the cat drug in". FSU has no such problem. They were in the Metro with UL.

So, tell me the strategy and the criteria and guessing the school will be easy or easier.

 

[OrangeHeel]

The Raycom debacle is what worries me when it comes to loyalty and when push comes to shove, where will he hang his hat. As you know NCS complains as much as FSU and VT when it comes to favoritism. They are the red haired step child.

State is the sibling who's always upset that their other sibling is the perceived favorite. Unfortunate actually because it's a great school in a great location with terrific facilities.

VT is in one sense the ACC's Rutgers -- too smug about too little. (But they arr waaaaaay better than Rutgers.) I think VA politics keeps them in ACC.

VA, like Carolina, a supposed "public Ivy". They stay with Carolina.

Clemson self-image is why we gave the famous line: "South Carolina -- too small to be a country, too large to be an insane asylum." And the John Calhoun house is still a noted landmark in the campus area.

FSU is the school trying to become a peer with UF. I think their admin content with ACC. Football backers not do much. Interesting to watch that play out.

GT us sort of a cross between VA & FSU. Academics v. athletics v. peeking order in state. Great school.


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[arbitragegls]

Arbit, could a conference that is already too Carolina centric afford to be too much in two states like Florida and NC? I think the lack of national exposure is what is hurting the ACC and getting Kentucky, Connecticut and Ohio involved may help that. I realize it didn't really help the big east but too many just said the big east sucks right out of hand so it just didn't have a chance to build up a rep so to speak.

Good point...depends on what is important to your media partner as well as to the conference. I do not believe UCF and USF are the conferences top choices that is why not listed as top 3--but from an eyeball media market play...a good choice and dont forget the Big 12...its basically state of Texas...

 

[Chip]

their value lies in the 3 rules of real estate...location, location, location.

plus, adding them wouldve kept the b1g, OUT.

not having new jersey, one of the best football producing states in the country, one that is right on the goddamn Atlantic, makes the ACC look bush league and petty. makes them look like a poster here who just says...'yeah, but rutgers football sucks'. well no kidding arsehole, but who cares? this is about $$$$ and putting down stakes.

the b1g took a look rutgers, looked at their 'value based on the school, the athletic program, the fan base, etc and RU was found' to be wanted.

simply put, they are bigger and smarter than the ACC, and clearly you as well.

and where is it written that the ACC never will have its own little network?

Who is to say the B1G wouldn't have just taken Rutgers anyway? Maryland certainly wasn't locked up. If Rutgers joined the ACC, and the B1G came calling with the same proposal, they would be gone. If the $50M didn't stop gaping deficit Maryland, then it wouldn't have stopped gaping deficit Rutgers.

ACC lost a founding member, now they have to make sure the core of the conference isn't next.

 

[Toga]

On the two Florida schools as possibilities - would they represent the money choice if it should happen that an ACC network is in the works? Aside from that - how would Florida State and Miami feel about adding two Florida schools?

This provides me an opportunity to just chat...NOT REPORT sources. So I really enjoy the intelligence of our posters. The fact is, this has gotten to be as much a media turf war as an athletic/academic one. For example the B1G is taking heat for taking Maryland...well academically and research wise it fits...as a vengeful act to payback Notre Dame for associating with the ACC and the Orange Bowl for not committing 100% to B1G...it smells...and B1G fans are not happy but Fox and the BTN are happy.
So we come to the ACC...is it one spot- Maryland's to fill or will there be 2-4 more teams leaving...and how important is it to get up to 15 teams leaving a potential spot for Notre Dame (but only if Notre Dame has indicated in writing it will join in next few years--this is from source).
So here are my thoughts:
1. Louisville necessary to placate FSU--bridge to ND geographically
2. Uconn because of northeast, nyc, and academics with vg bball
3. Cincy...academics good, sports teams getting better, and--bridge to ND geographically
..and 1, 2, 3 may be way to 15 (if addl teams leave) while waiting for Notre Dame and blocks Big 12 in a certain geographic area--Ohio Valley.

but you all know this...so here goes a whopper:
4. UCF and USF...if eyeballs are the game and ESPN needs a real reason to upgrade the ACC contract, these two teams combined are the 4th or 5th-depending on how its measured--TV market in the US--Tampa and Orlando. It would solidify Florida and potentially lesson any pressure on ACC if FSU leaves...otherwise it locks up the state of Florida. And before you laugh off either university, let it be known that UCF is one of the 2 largest universities in the US...that is a lot of eyeballs...and USF has the facilities and desire to be big time.

As of late last night, ESPN and ACC and ABC and Disney were still talking...and remember it isnt athletic directors that make the decisions, it is Presidents and BOT that do...so what is important to them...ACADEMICS AND MONEY...what order I do not know...

 

[SmilinBob]

The Big 12 is crazy if they don't go and get a Florida school and selecting in order FSU/Miami/USF/UCF. If they went and got FSU, Clemson, Louisville and X they would destroy the ACC. As a lot of you have said, the ACC already screwed up waiting on Rutgers to sew up the Atlantic coast and losing southern schools to the Big 12 is a kick to the second testicle.

 

[All4SU]

This provides me an opportunity to just chat...NOT REPORT sources. So I really enjoy the intelligence of our posters. The fact is, this has gotten to be as much a media turf war as an athletic/academic one. For example the B1G is taking heat for taking Maryland...well academically and research wise it fits...as a vengeful act to payback Notre Dame for associating with the ACC and the Orange Bowl for not committing 100% to B1G...it smells...and B1G fans are not happy but Fox and the BTN are happy.
So we come to the ACC...is it one spot- Maryland's to fill or will there be 2-4 more teams leaving...and how important is it to get up to 15 teams leaving a potential spot for Notre Dame (but only if Notre Dame has indicated in writing it will join in next few years--this is from source).
So here are my thoughts:
1. Louisville necessary to placate FSU--bridge to ND geographically
2. Uconn because of northeast, nyc, and academics with vg bball
3. Cincy...academics good, sports teams getting better, and--bridge to ND geographically
..and 1, 2, 3 may be way to 15 (if addl teams leave) while waiting for Notre Dame and blocks Big 12 in a certain geographic area--Ohio Valley.

but you all know this...so here goes a whopper:
4. UCF and USF...if eyeballs are the game and ESPN needs a real reason to upgrade the ACC contract, these two teams combined are the 4th or 5th-depending on how its measured--TV market in the US--Tampa and Orlando. It would solidify Florida and potentially lesson any pressure on ACC if FSU leaves...otherwise it locks up the state of Florida. And before you laugh off either university, let it be known that UCF is one of the 2 largest universities in the US...that is a lot of eyeballs...and USF has the facilities and desire to be big time.

As of late last night, ESPN and ACC and ABC and Disney were still talking...and remember it isnt athletic directors that make the decisions, it is Presidents and BOT that do...so what is important to them...ACADEMICS AND MONEY...what order I do not know...

You're going to placate FSU (with LVille) then add two Fla schools? I don't see that happening.

 

[SmilinBob]

State is the sibling who's always upset that their other sibling is the perceived favorite. Unfortunate actually because it's a great school in a great location with terrific facilities.

VT is in one sense the ACC's Rutgers -- too smug about too little. (But they arr waaaaaay better than Rutgers.) I think VA politics keeps them in ACC.

VA, like Carolina, a supposed "public Ivy". They stay with Carolina.

Clemson self-image is why we gave the famous line: "South Carolina -- too small to be a country, too large to be an insane asylum." And the John Calhoun house is still a noted landmark in the campus area.

FSU is the school trying to become a peer with UF. I think their admin content with ACC. Football backers not do much. Interesting to watch that play out.

GT us sort of a cross between VA & FSU. Academics v. athletics v. peeking order in state. Great school.


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I forgot what poster called VT France but damn, that was spot on!

 

[SmilinBob]

Who is to say the B1G wouldn't have just taken Rutgers anyway? Maryland certainly wasn't locked up. If Rutgers joined the ACC, and the B1G came calling with the same proposal, they would be gone. If the $50M didn't stop gaping deficit Maryland, then it wouldn't have stopped gaping deficit Rutgers.

ACC lost a founding member, now they have to make sure the core of the conference isn't next.

Yeah, that is a possibility that Rutgers would have flipped.

 

[Townie72]

their value lies in the 3 rules of real estate...location, location, location.

plus, adding them wouldve kept the b1g, OUT.

not having new jersey, one of the best football producing states in the country, one that is right on the goddamn Atlantic, makes the ACC look bush league and petty. makes them look like a poster here who just says...'yeah, but rutgers football sucks'. well no kidding arsehole, but who cares? this is about $$$$ and putting down stakes.

the b1g took a look rutgers, looked at their 'value based on the school, the athletic program, the fan base, etc and RU was found' to be wanted.

simply put, they are bigger and smarter than the ACC, and clearly you as well.

and where is it written that the ACC never will have its own little network?

The B1G may be smarter than I me. You may be too.

But unless you get it through your skull that this was driven primarily by the number of cable subscribers, the chance that you'll actually understand any of this are very slim. If there were no BTN, Rutgers would have never, ever been chosen irregardless of AAU membership or the great unwashed masses that populate Northern NJ.

The last I checked Rutgers was in the same "location, location, location" in the Big East that they will be in when they are in the B1G. And in this "location, location, location" in the Big East they added almost nothing to the Conference. Even in this "location, location, location" they were losing $25M a year that they had to dip into student fees and the general fund to get.

NJ's primary export has always been college students. ACC schools are filled with them all paying Out-of-State tuition that enables the State to offer discounted tuition to their own residents. NJ high school students and their parents want to go to UVA and Duke and UNC and just about anywhere but Rutgers.

As far as recruits go, the Big Ten and ACC and other Big East schools have always recruited NJ very well and they will continue to do so.

Being in the B1G hasn't locked up NJ for Rutgers or anyone.

And let's look at the future. One thing I am absolutely sure of is that the people in NJ will root only for a winner ... a big winner. And if Rutgers can't be a big winner in the B1G, the initial interest driven by this new phenomenon will dry up faster than a mud puddle in the Mojave desert.

PS - Try to minimize the personal "digs" in your post. All they do is degrade the conversation. I'll guarantee you can't bully me with insults.

 

[kingottoiii]

So, tell me the strategy and the criteria and guessing the school will be easy or easier.

Even if the strategy is to make FSU happy, does UL make FSU happy? We are talking about adding another team to the middle of the pack vs adding a team to the bottom of the pack. Is FSU really going to fight for UL? Are they worth fighting for? If it were WV I would say yes. But not UL.

If I am FSU I am more concerned with the divisions than who is #14. Make my division be teams I want to play. And in this case it is not Pitt, SU, BC, or UConn/UL. I want those 4 on the other side and Clemson/GA Tech on my side. Which means the ACC would go N vs S with Miami as a cross over.

South- FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, UNC, NC St, Wake, Duke
North- Miami, VT, UVA, Pitt, SU, BC, UConn

That makes for a good ACC SOS and should be a decent but winnable ACC CG game against Miami/VT.

 

[SmilinBob]

I believe that the Big 10 can sell Rutgers way better than the inept big east could. To me it's like Barney Fife having the same stock as Warren Buffet, who do you listen too?

 

[kingottoiii]

Is Temple a better choice vs Louisville?

Neither fits academically.

Temple fits geographically.

Neither adds $ (FSU's main concern) to the ESPN deal.

However if an ACCN is created Temple has a lot more value than UL.

Neither make the ACC a better FB conference.

Both make the ACC better in BBall, more so UL.

UL makes the ACC stronger in Olympic sports.

Athletically UL is a better choice but in the sport that matters they are only mediocre. They do not add TV $. And have weak academics. If FSU's main concern is keeping up with the SEC schools than $ is most important to them. So wouldn't Temple be the better choice vs UL?

 

[orange79]

Even if the strategy is to make FSU happy, does UL make FSU happy? We are talking about adding another team to the middle of the pack vs adding a team to the bottom of the pack. Is FSU really going to fight for UL? Are they worth fighting for? If it were WV I would say yes. But not UL.

If I am FSU I am more concerned with the divisions than who is #14. Make my division be teams I want to play. And in this case it is not Pitt, SU, BC, or UConn/UL. I want those 4 on the other side and Clemson/GA Tech on my side. Which means the ACC would go N vs S with Miami as a cross over.

South- FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, UNC, NC St, Wake, Duke
North- Miami, VT, UVA, Pitt, SU, BC, UConn

That makes for a good ACC SOS and should be a decent but winnable ACC CG game against Miami/VT.

Wouldn't they want Clemson on the other side? So their path to the CG is an 'easy' one?