Mike Hopkins and UW

[dollarbill44]

The previous information was based upon assumptions, and JB having what was perceived as full autonomy.
As for the last week, we've seen a tangible shift in that level of autonomy. But big picture, JB is not going to have full control over how things unfold at this point. There was a time when he might have, but the program's decline playing out on the court over a multi-year span has eroded his freedom to choose his own adventure with no restrictions.

What tangible evidence is there of a shift in JBs autonomy? A radio interview where he took some blame for this season? A win? Is there something else I've missed?
Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. I just don't know: (1) if he had full autonomy; (2) if anything fundamental has changed. Every one of the last 5-6 seasons we have seen periods of irrational blaming, then a moderate mea culpa and a couple of rebound wins.

 

[althea]

He'd be an idiot to artificially constrain his pool of candidates to just alumni.
And I'm pretty sure he's not an idiot.

You are right. The person in charge would have to be an absolute fool to put arbitrary limits on a pool of candidates for such an important job.

 

[Owens guy]

Lets say that JW gets a "thanks but no thanks at this time" response from EVERYONE on his list of outside coaching candidates. Lets say JW feels some of these coaches would take the job but not at the current time due to immediately having to follow JB.

Would you then be fine with bringing Hopkins back (over GMac and Red) and giving him a max of 3-4 years to turn things around before going back a national coaching search when options may be more likely to come to Syracuse?

 

[RF2044]

Lets say that JW gets a "thanks but no thanks at this time" response from EVERYONE on his list of outside coaching candidates. Lets say JW feels some of these coaches would take the job but not at the current time due to immediately having to follow JB.

Would you then be fine with bringing Hopkins back (over GMac and Red) and giving him a max of 3-4 years to turn things around before going back a national coaching search when options may be more likely to come to Syracuse?

Here's a better question: if you took Hopkins's last name away and anonymously submitted a coaching candidate for our job with the same credentials / track record, would you hand the program over to a coach with the last three years he's had?

For the record, that includes:

• A 5-13 conference record in 2019, good for a last place finish [and a losing 15-17 record overall].
• A 5-21 overall record in 2020, which includes a 4-16 [11th place out of 12 teams] conference record.
• And an 11-8 record [57%] so far this year, which includes home losses to Northern Illinois, Wyoming, and a double-digit loss to UTAH VALLEY!!!

The SU fanbase would be rioting in the quad if we hired a coach with that track record. I love Hopkins, and I'm extremely appreciative of his contributions to SU as both a player and a coach. But this is a results-driven profession, and nostalgia isn't as important of an evaluative criteria as performance.

 

[pearl31]

The previous information was based upon assumptions, and JB having what was perceived as full autonomy.
As for the last week, we've seen a tangible shift in that level of autonomy. But big picture, JB is not going to have full control over how things unfold at this point. There was a time when he might have, but the program's decline playing out on the court over a multi-year span has eroded his freedom to choose his own adventure with no restrictions.

Couple of questions come to mind-

This would suggest Wildhack has set or is in process of setting a retire-by-or-be-terminated date for JB - is that the case?
Does Wildhack have the political clout and necessary backing to force JB out in what would surely become an ugly public spectacle?

 

[Sherman20]

Does JB have full control over his exit? I've been told by respected posters that he does. Even if he does, what is JB's role post-retirement?

If JB has full control over his retirement and is a large presence and heavy-handed even after he leaves, JW cannot make the best possible choice.

I agree that in a proper search, it would be both internal and external candidates and we'd go with the best person.

But until I know that JB doesn't have full control over his exit or what he plans to do w/r/t the program post-retirement, I'm not sure how we can get a proper HC search.

I think JB fully understands that being heavy handed or hanging around a lot with his successor won’t be good for anyone. I have no doubt about that. But I expect he will be available to answer questions and bounce ideas off of, especially when it comes to all the university-related and non-basketball issues (some booster related) that a head coach must deal with—and that an outside hire might have trouble with. That said, one reason Wildhack has to tread carefully and can’t push JB out unilaterally is that he needs him for fundraising and other bigger picture athletic program-related needs. That’s what Gary Williams has been doing at Maryland since his retirement.

 

[Owens guy]

Here's a better question: if you took Hopkins's last name away and anonymously submitted a coaching candidate for our job with the same credentials / track record, would you hand the program over to a coach with the last three years he's had?

For the record, that includes:

• A 5-13 conference record in 2019, good for a last place finish [and a losing 15-17 record overall].
• A 5-21 overall record in 2020, which includes a 4-16 [11th place out of 12 teams] conference record.
• And an 11-8 record [57%] so far this year, which includes home losses to Northern Illinois, Wyoming, and a double-digit loss to UTAH VALLEY!!!

The SU fanbase would be rioting in the quad if we hired a coach with that track record. I love Hopkins, and I'm extremely appreciative of his contributions to SU as both a player and a coach. But this is a results-driven profession, and nostalgia isn't as important of an evaluative criteria as performance.

That's a good answer. I think many (including admittingly myself often) want Hop because he is such a good guy and bleeds orange. He'd be a great ambassador for the program but hopefully not the best coaching option when that time comes.

 

[kcsu]

JW is going to weigh lots of factors. One major factor is continuity. 50 years' worth.
There are not sure things when it comes to coaches. We could hire Oats and given SUs private school environment vs Buffalo and Alabama the restrictions could cause him to fail. Look at the situation at Louisville, Or the Loyola coach at Oklahoma. There are dozens of examples in every sport that previous success doesn't always equate to future success. Basically, it's an educated guess.

That is why storied programs that are not in trouble with often keep the transition from a legendary coach in house. It's the safest transition. Why? Because if SU were to hire Red, Gmac or Hop they don't burn 50 years of relationships. 2 or 3 years later if one of those guys doesn't do well you go out and find someone outside of the program.

Personally, i hope that one of the three gets the job as i do believe that is the best chance of SU coming back quickly. If we hire and outsider and it doesn't work out than what? A revolving door.
I have no idea what JW is thinking but i do believe this train of thought will be strongly considered.

 

[two3zone]

Here's a better question: if you took Hopkins's last name away and anonymously submitted a coaching candidate for our job with the same credentials / track record, would you hand the program over to a coach with the last three years he's had?

For the record, that includes:

• A 5-13 conference record in 2019, good for a last place finish [and a losing 15-17 record overall].
• A 5-21 overall record in 2020, which includes a 4-16 [11th place out of 12 teams] conference record.
• And an 11-8 record [57%] so far this year, which includes home losses to Northern Illinois, Wyoming, and a double-digit loss to UTAH VALLEY!!!

The SU fanbase would be rioting in the quad if we hired a coach with that track record. I love Hopkins, and I'm extremely appreciative of his contributions to SU as both a player and a coach. But this is a results-driven profession, and nostalgia isn't as important of an evaluative criteria as performance.

You’re not wrong, but he should get a little credit for his time here, not saying it’s the end all be all, but he is more than his time in Washington and it shouldn’t totally discredited.

 

[RF2044]

JW is going to weigh lots of factors. One major factor is continuity. 50 years' worth.
There are not sure things when it comes to coaches. We could hire Oats and given SUs private school environment vs Buffalo and Alabama the restrictions could cause him to fail. Look at the situation at Louisville, Or the Loyola coach at Oklahoma. There are dozens of examples in every sport that previous success doesn't always equate to future success. Basically, it's an educated guess.

That is why storied programs that are not in trouble with often keep the transition from a legendary coach in house. It's the safest transition. Why? Because if SU were to hire Red, Gmac or Hop they don't burn 50 years of relationships. 2 or 3 years later if one of those guys doesn't do well you go out and find someone outside of the program.

Personally, i hope that one of the three gets the job as i do believe that is the best chance of SU coming back quickly. If we hire and outsider and it doesn't work out than what? A revolving door.
I have no idea what JW is thinking but i do believe this train of thought will be strongly considered.

Continuity is only relevant when you want to maintain the status quo.

Boeheim is an institution. I don't know if he belongs on the Mt. Rushmore of all time legendary coaches, but he's definitely in the top 8.

The problem is that you can almost separate the first 40 years, and what's transpired since. And while it is fine for people to wax reverentially about the first 4+ decades, they also should be objectively realistic about how the program has slipped over a multi-year span of time.

And given said slippage, this is not the time for continuity.

People are too afraid of change. Sure, bad things can ensue. But change is also an opportunity. And given that the program isn't performing at a level anyone is satisfied with, there's no reason to strive for continuity, or to maintain the status quo.

Simple as that.

And acknowledging such isn't a slight to JB's accomplishments over the first 40 years, but it IS a direct response to the subpar performance over the last ~7.

 

[cuseinseattle]

It will be interesting to see who the best candidate end up being that will take the job and how much we are willing to pay. We have amazing community support and the dome and are in the ACC but the job is not as desirable as I think it might have been years ago. My brother was a coach on the division 1 level 10 years ago and I would go to the final 4 with him and he would introduce me to all these assistants and coaches. My brother's introduction was always my brother is a huge syracuse guy. Maybe I was more sensitive to it but I feel like a lot of assistants talked about how they thought Syracuse was a tough job and they were always amazed at Boeheim's ability to sustain success. I wonder what coaches truly think of the job and not the fans. I feel like we are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Fly Rodder]

You are right. The person in charge would have to be an absolute fool to put arbitrary limits on a pool of candidates for such an important job.

Depends on how big the pool of candidates is. They could just get a search committee to put together a list of only people who buy into a specific cult coaching philosophy.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Basically, it's an educated guess.

Obviously. Not every coach is a HOFer. Some schools are lucky to get one. Not for nothing, but any expectations need to be weighed against what's happening right now and recently. Not the entire length and breadth of JAB's career because that's a completely unrealistic bar to clear.

 

[AZOrange]

Whatever decision JW makes is the best decision. I trust him. I trusted him with the football situation and I trusted him with the lax situation. When it comes to coaching hires and/or retention, he’s done nothing that shows he doesn’t know what he’s doing. I’ll trust him here too.

Exactly

 

[AZOrange]

Here's a better question: if you took Hopkins's last name away and anonymously submitted a coaching candidate for our job with the same credentials / track record, would you hand the program over to a coach with the last three years he's had?

For the record, that includes:

• A 5-13 conference record in 2019, good for a last place finish [and a losing 15-17 record overall].
• A 5-21 overall record in 2020, which includes a 4-16 [11th place out of 12 teams] conference record.
• And an 11-8 record [57%] so far this year, which includes home losses to Northern Illinois, Wyoming, and a double-digit loss to UTAH VALLEY!!!

The SU fanbase would be rioting in the quad if we hired a coach with that track record. I love Hopkins, and I'm extremely appreciative of his contributions to SU as both a player and a coach. But this is a results-driven profession, and nostalgia isn't as important of an evaluative criteria as performance.

To be fair, the parsing of his career you do above could be done to a lot of candidates. Hop will be a candidate as he should be along with others

 

[AZOrange]

That's a good answer. I think many (including admittingly myself often) want Hop because he is such a good guy and bleeds orange. He'd be a great ambassador for the program but hopefully not the best coaching option when that time comes.

Why “hopefully not the best coaching option”? Hop is a monster recruiter and that leads to most of the success a coach will have coaching. He’s a great ambassador as you point out and a TOTAL players coach (which is a critical skill these days).

 

[Otto'd]

Continuity is only relevant when you want to maintain the status quo.

Boeheim is an institution. I don't know if he belongs on the Mt. Rushmore of all time legendary coaches, but he's definitely in the top 8.

The problem is that you can almost separate the first 40 years, and what's transpired since. And while it is fine for people to wax reverentially about the first 4+ decades, they also should be objectively realistic about how the program has slipped over a multi-year span of time.

And given said slippage, this is not the time for continuity.

People are too afraid of change. Sure, bad things can ensue. But change is also an opportunity. And given that the program isn't performing at a level anyone is satisfied with, there's no reason to strive for continuity, or to maintain the status quo.

Simple as that.

And acknowledging such isn't a slight to JB's accomplishments over the first 40 years, but it IS a direct response to the subpar performance over the last ~7.

Rip the band-aid!

We all know this axiom. Its true.

We wont do it, I know. And I was onboard at one time with not doing that. JB earned our respect to go out how he wanted. We had his retirement and a "coach in waiting" - hop- almost a decade ago after sanctions. Then JB decided, "no good". Then JB decided "coach my sons" and sure we owe him that. We as fans have paid up. I want Syracuse relevancy back. ON COURT. Not because we have an outdated legend coaching an outdated zone. Because those last two items are our national relevancy. And that stuff dont last with an 80 year old coach. The song is over. (/the who)

 

[RF2044]

To be fair, the parsing of his career you do above could be done to a lot of candidates. Hop will be a candidate as he should be along with others

Not candidates that should be on our list.

Candidates with strong, consistent track records don't have multi-year dips in performance that need to be parsed to rationalize whether they belong on the short list.

What I'm gathering is that some people view "former ties to the program" as being a more important evaluative criteria than performance, or other factors. At most, it should be viewed as a "nice to have," not a "need to have."

 

[Fat tire 13]

I'm hoping for the Bill Belechick trajectory for Hopkins

-Long time career of star assistant coach, on a championship team (Giants under Parcells)
-Flounders in first HC gig (Browns)
-Gets a new HC gig, wins a million titles (Pats)

Now if we can only recruit the college basketball equivalent of Brady, and we will be good to go

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Hopkins were ever the coach here(not saying I want him) he needs to hire someone who coaches offense and values shooting/passing. Something that has seemed to be a major weakness on his UW teams and in his recruiting.

 

[orangedave]

I'm hoping for the Bill Belechick trajectory for Hopkins

-Long time career of star assistant coach, on a championship team (Giants under Parcells)
-Flounders in first HC gig (Browns)
-Gets a new HC gig, wins a million titles (Pats)

Now if we can only recruit the college basketball equivalent of Brady, and we will be good to go

I doubt we can find a college basketball equivalent of Brady - considered by many to be the greatest of all time.

 

[orangecuse]

I'm hoping for the Bill Belechick trajectory for Hopkins

-Long time career of star assistant coach, on a championship team (Giants under Parcells)
-Flounders in first HC gig (Browns)
-Gets a new HC gig, wins a million titles (Pats)

Now if we can only recruit the college basketball equivalent of Brady, and we will be good to go

As a lifelong Cleveland Browns fan, I wouldn't say Belichick floundered at his first gig. Prior to Belichick getting to Cleveland, the Browns came off a dismal 3-13 record. After his first season, he had back to back 7-9 seasons in a division where the Steelers and Houston Oilers were playoff teams. As many folks who follow the NFL closely, there's not much difference between a 7-9 team v. a 9-7 one, or a 6-10 team v. a 10-6 one. A play here, a fumble there, a missed call/bad call in critical moments, specific/crucial injuries to key players, etc.

In his 4th season, Belichick had the Browns at 11-5 and in the playoffs. They won their first playoff game that year as well. Prior to that '94 playoff season, the Browns hadn't been in the playoffs since '89. After that '94 season, the Browns have only been to the playoffs twice, in '02 and last year.

Unlike Hop, Belichick had the Browns heading in the right direction each year he was there prior to '95. Prior to that '95 season, many prognosticators predicted the Browns to make the Superbowl that year. Well, once wind got caught about that dirtbag Modell moving the team to Baltimore, and it became formally announced in early November of that year, it was practically impossible for the coaches, players, the city of Cleveland and its huge metro area to focus on the actual games. It was, and still to this day a complete nightmare.

Phew! I don't think too many here really give a chit. However, it's still good therapy for me all these years later.

 

[AZOrange]

Not candidates that should be on our list.

Candidates with strong, consistent track records don't have multi-year dips in performance that need to be parsed to rationalize whether they belong on the short list.

What I'm gathering is that some people view "former ties to the program" as being a more important evaluative criteria than performance, or other factors. At most, it should be viewed as a "nice to have," not a "need to have."

Hop was also 2x PAC 12 COY (you don’t give that any deference). One of his two down years was COVID (which I would totally dismiss). The year before he lost Quade in the second half of the year when the slide began while Jaden became a headcase. This isn’t just about Hop being a Cuse guy. He’s a deadeye recruiter and can coach

 

[Fat tire 13]

I doubt we can find a college basketball equivalent of Brady - considered by many to be the greatest of all time

As a lifelong Cleveland Browns fan, I wouldn't say Belichick floundered at his first gig. Prior to Belichick getting to Cleveland, the Browns came off a dismal 3-13 record. After his first season, he had back to back 7-9 seasons in a division where the Steelers and Houston Oilers were playoff teams. As many folks who follow the NFL closely, there's not much difference between a 7-9 team v. a 9-7 one, or a 6-10 team v. a 10-6 one. A play here, a fumble there, a missed call/bad call in critical moments, specific/crucial injuries to key players, etc.

In his 4th season, Belichick had the Browns at 11-5 and in the playoffs. They won their first playoff game that year as well. Prior to that '94 playoff season, the Browns hadn't been in the playoffs since '89. After that '94 season, the Browns have only been to the playoffs twice, in '02 and last year.

Unlike Hop, Belichick had the Browns heading in the right direction each year he was there prior to '95. Prior to that '95 season, many prognosticators predicted the Browns to make the Superbowl that year. Well, once wind got caught about that dirtbag Modell moving the team to Baltimore, and it became formally announced in early November of that year, it was practically impossible for the coaches, players, the city of Cleveland and its huge metro area to focus on the actual games. It was, and still to this day a complete nightmare.

Phew! I don't think too many here really give a chit. However, it's still good therapy for me all these years later.

Sorry to open that can of worms

I was mostly being facetious, and remembered he had a losing record with Cleveland.

And we can all agree that Modell is a dirt bag!

 

[djorange1989]

Here's a better question: if you took Hopkins's last name away and anonymously submitted a coaching candidate for our job with the same credentials / track record, would you hand the program over to a coach with the last three years he's had?

For the record, that includes:

• A 5-13 conference record in 2019, good for a last place finish [and a losing 15-17 record overall].
• A 5-21 overall record in 2020, which includes a 4-16 [11th place out of 12 teams] conference record.
• And an 11-8 record [57%] so far this year, which includes home losses to Northern Illinois, Wyoming, and a double-digit loss to UTAH VALLEY!!!

The SU fanbase would be rioting in the quad if we hired a coach with that track record. I love Hopkins, and I'm extremely appreciative of his contributions to SU as both a player and a coach. But this is a results-driven profession, and nostalgia isn't as important of an evaluative criteria as performance.

I hear Utah Valley is the Colgate of the Mountain Time Zone