NBA Playoffs

[Ghost]

I don't see it. Cavs put up a good fight last year without Irving and Love. I think this one has a good chance of going 7.

Yeah, LeBron going beast mode is their best shot - he won't because of Irving and Love.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yeah, LeBron going beast mode is their best shot - he won't because of Irving and Love.

Lebron going beast mode is fool's gold.

 

[Ghost]

Lebron going beast mode is fool's gold.

I would concur - I just don't see them winning this series without him being more prolific - those type of numbers we saw last year where he was ball dominant (not just scoring btw). I'm not saying he's passive on the court, he's always engaged, but I think Irving controlling the ball a lot won't get it done.

 

[Knicks411]

Magic finished higher than Kareem in NBA MVP voting every single season starting in 1982.

I would not have guessed that, I would have thought the transition happened closer to the 85-86 period. Interesting that in both 82 and 83 Kareem finished 10th in the MVP. He averaged about 22-8 on 62% true shooting. Though you can see the rebounds were down, 8.5 rebounds per 36 for a 7 footer in that era (fast pace) is pretty bad.

Magic's MVP voting the last 9 years of his career is pretty insane
3, 3, 2, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2. Kareem had a 12 year run where he went 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 5, 1, 1, 4, 4, 1, 3.

Meh.

Can't argue that.

 

[Knicks411]

I love looking at the MVP finish stuff. Lebron for the last 11 years
2, 5, 4, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3. Lebron needs one more top 5 next year to match Kareem for 12 straight top 5's. 8 straight top 3's for Lebron, needs one next year to match Magic.

Jordan went 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 3, (retired) (retired, actually finished 11th in 95) 1, 2, 1. So that's realistically 10 straight top 3's.

Russell was 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 4, 3, 4. 11 straight top 4's to end his career, plus a run of 6 straight top 2's.

 

[MikeSU02]

I love looking at the MVP finish stuff. Lebron for the last 11 years
2, 5, 4, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3. Lebron needs one more top 5 next year to match Kareem for 12 straight top 5's. 8 straight top 3's for Lebron, needs one next year to match Magic.

Jordan went 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 3, (retired) (retired, actually finished 11th in 95) 1, 2, 1. So that's realistically 10 straight top 3's.

Russell was 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 4, 3, 4. 11 straight top 4's to end his career, plus a run of 6 straight top 2's.

Kareem doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves. He has a very real argument for the best basketball player of all time.

 

[Knicks411]

Kareem doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves. He has a very real argument for the best basketball player of all time.

I think Kareem's problem is he came of age in the 70's, which for whatever reason (ABA?) is kind of a forgotten era in the nba? In the 60's you had Russell and Wilt and the Celtics dynasty, int he 80's you had Magic/Michael/Larry, but in between the 70's seemingly has no real thematic story line. No team won back to back titles; the Knicks and Lakers kind of dominated the first few years of the decade, but by the mid to late 70's you had teams like Seattle, Golden State, and Washington, who just aren't historic teams.

I was talking with a buddy about this lately actually. Kareem went to the Lakers in 75-76; he spent 4 years there before Magic showed up. He averaged 26-14-5-4 on 58% shooting, which is just insane, but the Lakers won "only" 46 games per year and made it as far as the west finals just once. So basically, Kareem had a 7 year stretch in the middle of his career where he went to one NBA finals (lost to the Celtics) and one west finals. So, many of his best years coincided without long playoff runs, and I think he is remembered more for his mid 80's years with the Lakers when he was good but not the dominant force he once was.

I don't think I ever realized exactly how great those Bucks teams were consistently; Kareem was there 5 years, they won 304 games in 5 years.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think Kareem's problem is he came of age in the 70's, which for whatever reason (ABA?) is kind of a forgotten era in the nba? In the 60's you had Russell and Wilt and the Celtics dynasty, int he 80's you had Magic/Michael/Larry, but in between the 70's seemingly has no real thematic story line. No team won back to back titles; the Knicks and Lakers kind of dominated the first few years of the decade, but by the mid to late 70's you had teams like Seattle, Golden State, and Washington, who just aren't historic teams.

I was talking with a buddy about this lately actually. Kareem went to the Lakers in 75-76; he spent 4 years there before Magic showed up. He averaged 26-14-5-4 on 58% shooting, which is just insane, but the Lakers won "only" 46 games per year and made it as far as the west finals just once. So basically, Kareem had a 7 year stretch in the middle of his career where he went to one NBA finals (lost to the Celtics) and one west finals. So, many of his best years coincided without long playoff runs, and I think he is remembered more for his mid 80's years with the Lakers when he was good but not the dominant force he once was.

I don't think I ever realized exactly how great those Bucks teams were consistently; Kareem was there 5 years, they won 304 games in 5 years.

Good stuff there. The 70's NBA was generally seen as a down time for the league, because a lot of the best players went to the ABA. Those Bucks teams Kareem was on didn't have to deal with All Timers like Julius, Gervin, Dan Issel, Artis Gilmore, and George McGinnis. Rick Barry left the Warriors for 3 years and went to the ABA. When he came back they won the title. All of those guys averaged more than 20points a game in the early to mid-70's.

Old timers think the NBA is watered down now, but it really was watered down in the 70's when a lot of the top talent didn't even compete against each other. Even young Moses Malone started in the ABA, and Billy Cunningham played there two years as well in the mid 70's before returning to Philly.

 

[OrangeDW]

I would not have guessed that, I would have thought the transition happened closer to the 85-86 period. Interesting that in both 82 and 83 Kareem finished 10th in the MVP. He averaged about 22-8 on 62% true shooting. Though you can see the rebounds were down, 8.5 rebounds per 36 for a 7 footer in that era (fast pace) is pretty bad.

Magic's MVP voting the last 9 years of his career is pretty insane
3, 3, 2, 3, 1, 3, 1, 1, 2.

Yup. I'm a huge Magic fan and I get pretty irritated when people jump right to the Lebron vs. Jordan stuff. I can concede that Jordan surpassed Magic(barely). But Lebron? When? How? Says who?

 

[Knicks411]

Yup. I'm a huge Magic fan and I get pretty irritated when people jump right to the Lebron vs. Jordan stuff. I can concede that Jordan surpassed Magic(barely). But Lebron? When? How? Says who?

I think he probably has, but Magic was freaking amazing.

It's crazy to think that Lebron has basically played a full season (81) more games than magic did in his career. I think late career Lebron will be similar to what late career Magic would have been if he didn't have to retire when he did. I envision 34 year old Lebron slicing defenses up by passing out of the post, much like I assume Magic would have.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's really to bad Magic quit and Bird's back gave out, because if both of them played as many seasons as Lebron you could have some interesting arguments that they were both just as good at their best.

If GSW beats Cleveland and Curry averages say somewhere near 30, 10, 5, and 2, I think his reign as best player is officially over.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think he probably has, but Magic was freaking amazing.

It's crazy to think that Lebron has basically played a full season (81) more games than magic did in his career. I think late career Lebron will be similar to what late career Magic would have been if he didn't have to retire when he did. I envision 34 year old Lebron slicing defenses up by passing out of the post, much like I assume Magic would have.

Lebron will get him on the longevity, but Magic's accomplishments during the time he did play are incredible. REALLY irritates me when people act like Lebron's passing(which is very good) is close to Magic's.

 

[OrangeDW]

It's really to bad Magic quit and Bird's back gave out, because if both of them played as many seasons as Lebron you could have some interesting arguments that they were both just as good at their best.

If GSW beats Cleveland and Curry averages say somewhere near 30, 10, 5, and 2, I think his reign as best player is officially over.

I'll maintain that they were both a little better, at their best.

 

[Knicks411]

Lebron will get him on the longevity, but Magic's accomplishments during the time he did play are incredible. REALLY irritates me when people act like Lebron's passing(which is very good) is close to Magic's.

Lebron has the best court vision (or at least the best combination of court vision and the ability to execute passes, due to his size) that I've ever seen, but Magic was a little before my time. I have no problem believing Magic was a better passer than Lebron. Though I would say Lebron probably is the best passing non PG of all time.

Edit: At their best: I don't know, I remember thinking back when Lebron was truly at his peak in like 2012-13 or so, that I couldn't imagine anyone being better than him. He could do everything on the court. Bird and Magic weren't going to give you the defensive value Lebron had. The guy guarded Tony Parker for most of game 7 of the finals in 2013.

 

[MikeSU02]

Lebron has the best court vision (or at least the best combination of court vision and the ability to execute passes, due to his size) that I've ever seen, but Magic was a little before my time. I have no problem believing Magic was a better passer than Lebron. Though I would say Lebron probably is the best passing non PG of all time.

You have to consider defense in evaluating these guys.

Magic wasn't terrible, but he was really limited in terms of who he could functionally guard.

LeBron was way better at defense than Magic.

 

[Knicks411]

You have to consider defense in evaluating these guys.

Magic wasn't terrible, but he was really limited in terms of who he could functionally guard.

LeBron was way better at defense than Magic.

Agreed. Lebron could basically do everything on the court. He could score 30 points a game, he could run your offense and distribute, he could rebound, and he could guard the best player on the other team basically regardless of what position the guy played. I don't think anyone else in history could really check all of those boxes.

 

[OrangeDW]

You have to consider defense in evaluating these guys.

Magic wasn't terrible, but he was really limited in terms of who he could functionally guard.

LeBron was way better at defense than Magic.

Not that it's the only measure of defense because it obviously isn't, but Magic averaged more steals per game than Lebron, and even led the NBA in steals a couple times.

Young Magic actually wreaked a lot of havoc on defense, as the Lakers were known for trapping and forcing turnovers in the early Riley years.

 

[OrangeDW]

Lebron has the best court vision (or at least the best combination of court vision and the ability to execute passes, due to his size) that I've ever seen, but Magic was a little before my time. I have no problem believing Magic was a better passer than Lebron. Though I would say Lebron probably is the best passing non PG of all time.

Edit: At their best: I don't know, I remember thinking back when Lebron was truly at his peak in like 2012-13 or so, that I couldn't imagine anyone being better than him. He could do everything on the court. Bird and Magic weren't going to give you the defensive value Lebron had. The guy guarded Tony Parker for most of game 7 of the finals in 2013.

I mean...Lebron's not going to give you the value on offense that Bird is either- because he can't shoot nearly as well. There's been crucial times in finals series where the opponent sags off Lebron and he can't make them pay.

As good of a facilitator as Lebron is, he's not in Magic's league there.

 

[Knicks411]

Not that it's the only measure of defense because it obviously isn't, but Magic averaged more steals per game than Lebron, and even led the NBA in steals a couple times.

Young Magic actually wreaked a lot of havoc on defense, as the Lakers were known for trapping and forcing turnovers in the early Riley years.

Twice in steals per game according to basketball reference. I can't imagine a young Magic who could move, with that length, being a bad defender, but everything I've read says he was pretty slow and got lit up by quicker PG as he got older.

 

[Knicks411]

I mean...Lebron's not going to give you the value on offense that Bird is either- because he can't shoot nearly as well. There's been crucial times in finals series where the opponent sags off Lebron and he can't make them pay.

As good of a facilitator as Lebron is, he's not in Magic's league there.

I'm not saying he's better than those guys at everything, but he could do more things at a higher level than those guys. I think Lebron was probably a better offensive player than Bird. Interesting to note Bird's shooting would probably have a bigger impact on the game now, since he'd take a lot more 3's than he did in the 80's, when it wasn't considered the weapon it is now.

And we're talking about 3 of the what, 8 best players to ever play the game? They're all awesome. But I put Lebron at his absolute peak up with anyone. I think he was as close to a perfect player as you can get. I just think the versatility was off the charts.

 

[OrangeDW]

Twice in steals per game according to basketball reference. I can't imagine a young Magic who could move, with that length, being a bad defender, but everything I've read says he was pretty slow and got lit up by quicker PG as he got older.

Yes. When he guarded them.

But I was initially talking about at their respective peaks.

 

[OrangeDW]

I'm not saying he's better than those guys at everything, but he could do more things at a higher level than those guys. I think Lebron was probably a better offensive player than Bird. Interesting to note Bird's shooting would probably have a bigger impact on the game now, since he'd take a lot more 3's than he did in the 80's, when it wasn't considered the weapon it is now.

And we're talking about 3 of the what, 8 best players to ever play the game? They're all awesome. But I put Lebron at his absolute peak up with anyone. I think he was as close to a perfect player as you can get. I just think the versatility was off the charts.

Bird put up a 28 points, 7.6 assists, 50-40-90 season. Kind've hard to top that.

Edit: didnt realize or had forgotten Lebron shot 40% from 3 in '13. That was an amazing season too.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's interesting argument for sure. Bird averaged 24, 10, 6 and almost 2 steals. Lebron averages 25, 7, 7, and 2. You can make an argument that Bird is the one guy hurt by his era. He didn't shoot nearly enough threes for how good a shooter he was. He also didn't start until 23 and came in and immediately produced. Lebron had four extra years in him giving him slightly better stats.

 

[Alsacs]

Magic is better than Lebron right now but Lebron could pass him when he is done.
Lebron has passed Bird just because LB started late and his back gave out.

Just like Magic owned a terrible Western conference in the 1980s. Lebron owns the Eastern conference of the 2010s.

Magic was better all-round player. Lebron is a better offensive player but Magic sacrificed his offensive for the betterment of his team. The game of the 80s made Magic's D look bad but until 1991 Magic could play really solid D.

Lebron will most likely eventually pass Magic as a top 3 player alltime. I think the top 3 all time are Jordan, Kareem, Magic with Russell, Chamberlain rounding the top 5. Bird 6th, Duncan, Kobe, Oscar, Lebron rounding out my top 10.

 

[OrangeDW]

Magic is better than Lebron right now but Lebron could pass him when he is done.
Lebron has passed Bird just because LB started late and his back gave out.

Just like Magic owned a terrible Western conference in the 1980s. Lebron owns the Eastern conference of the 2010s.

Magic was better all-round player. Lebron is a better offensive player but Magic sacrificed his offensive for the betterment of his team. The game of the 80s made Magic's D look bad but until 1991 Magic could play really solid D.

Lebron will most likely eventually pass Magic as a top 3 player alltime. I think the top 3 all time are Jordan, Kareem, Magic with Russell, Chamberlain rounding the top 5. Bird 6th, Duncan, Kobe, Oscar, Lebron rounding out my top 10.

I don't agree with this, unless you're focusing on mostly scoring. Lebron is a better scorer, and Magic sacrificed his scoring a bit as he could've scored more. But as an overall offensive player? It's very close. 27 and 7 vs. 19 and 11 or so? Magic's FG% was slightly better, but it was also a different era. I lean towards Magic.

As for Lebron passing Magic and/or Bird, I think that depends on how you balance rating them at their peaks and rating their longevity and overall body of work. Some people weigh those factors a little differently, which changes how they look at it.

A good example might be Barkley vs. Malone. If you value longevity more highly than others, you're definitely going Malone. If you focus more on the peak, you might go Barkley(or maybe not...there's a good argument to be made for either in that case).