OT: Conference Realignment (Big Vote Next Week)

[atom58]

While the ACC wanted full deregulation and didn't get it, I thought there would be a vote against a conference holding a conference championship game (CCG) unless they had 12 teams and two divisions. What has passed (allowing only a less than 12 team conference with round robin play to have a CCG) is a "poison pill" for the Big 12. While they play 9 conference games that's not impressive b/c they only have 10 teams so you can play the other 9 and still have 3 OOC games in a 12 game schedule. Now if they rematch their top two teams who have already played, it is possible the one that lost the last time will not this time and thereby knock the conference out of the CFB playoff - in other words, they would be crazy to have a CCG with only 10 teams. Meanwhile, Oklahoma is pushing for expansion and elimination of the Longhorn Network. This may get interesting.

 

[Moontan]

in other words, they would be crazy to have a CCG with only 10 teams.

Crazy to do it and possibly locked out if they don't.

Their best move forward remains the one where they add two schools (possibly BYU as a football-only) and split into divisions. It reduces the chance of a championship game rematch while meeting the (unspoken of) threshold of having a championship game.

 

[TheCusian]

While the ACC wanted full deregulation and didn't get it, I thought there would be a vote against a conference holding a conference championship game (CCG) unless they had 12 teams and two divisions. What has passed (allowing only a less than 12 team conference with round robin play to have a CCG) is a "poison pill" for the Big 12. While they play 9 conference games that's not impressive b/c they only have 10 teams so you can play the other 9 and still have 3 OOC games in a 12 game schedule. Now if they rematch their top two teams who have already played, it is possible the one that lost the last time will not this time and thereby knock the conference out of the CFB playoff - in other words, they would be crazy to have a CCG with only 10 teams. Meanwhile, Oklahoma is pushing for expansion and elimination of the Longhorn Network. This may get interesting.

Just have the weaker team lay down. Worked for Wiscy and tOSU. Quality win and champ game = easy entry!

 

[WoadBlue]

While the ACC wanted full deregulation and didn't get it, I thought there would be a vote against a conference holding a conference championship game (CCG) unless they had 12 teams and two divisions. What has passed (allowing only a less than 12 team conference with round robin play to have a CCG) is a "poison pill" for the Big 12. While they play 9 conference games that's not impressive b/c they only have 10 teams so you can play the other 9 and still have 3 OOC games in a 12 game schedule. Now if they rematch their top two teams who have already played, it is possible the one that lost the last time will not this time and thereby knock the conference out of the CFB playoff - in other words, they would be crazy to have a CCG with only 10 teams. Meanwhile, Oklahoma is pushing for expansion and elimination of the Longhorn Network. This may get interesting.

The BT, which can count on the Pac and the MAC doing its will, engineered something to stick it to the ACC because of ND and present the Big 12 with a bad choice and a worse choice. I think the BT has several moves it would be happy to make to get to 16. It feels that this move maximizes its getting one of those good plans to reach 16 by putting pressure of some type on both the ACC and the Big 12.

 

[WoadBlue]

LouC posted his analysis of the vote and its meaning on an FSU site - if you have some time, it may be worth reading:

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2016/...le-game-deregulation-fail-causes-implications

If the Big 12(10) does come unglued - that mention is further down in the comments - I did say the ACC should quickly grab WVU.

If the Big 12 comes unglued, the ACC has a decent chance to land Texas in an ND-type deal. If the Big 12 comes unglued, the time table for ND feeling a need to take the final plunge gets closer, and the ACC is not adding a 16th unless it plays a role in getting ND into the full football mix.

WVU is not part of that.

 

[WoadBlue]

Yeah, give me WVU back. That was a great rivalry for us, even if they had Pitt as primary.

They served their time as an outpost. Bring them back east.

I'll take them over UConn 7 million times over.

I would take WVU over UConn any dat any year any hour. But WVU is not a school/team that matters to ND. Like it or not, all ACC members have to face the fact that ND as a full football member is the only move that matters for us.

Hence, my repeated emphasis over the past 5 or 6 years (long before ND became a 5/8ths member of ACC football) on Navy football. The Navy issue is the main reason I was thrilled that the BT took Maryland off our hands. WE now have a need for a team in the Dc/Baltimore area.

And as that move gets closer (ND is going to have to make it eventually), Syracuse should be behind the scenes quietly arguing that the ACC should add Navy for football and lacrosse and should add Georgetown for basketball, to have a basketball presence in DC/MD to stick it to Twerps hoops.

 

[shantydaze]

If the Big 12 comes unglued, the ACC has a decent chance to land Texas in an ND-type deal. If the Big 12 comes unglued, the time table for ND feeling a need to take the final plunge gets closer, and the ACC is not adding a 16th unless it plays a role in getting ND into the full football mix.

WVU is not part of that.

Why would the ACC want any more partial members? I was and am not a fan of the ND deal. While I understand the argument that its inclusion opened better bowls and could increase television money, what more could Texas add that FSU and ND have not already brought?

I have always thought partial memberships weakens a conference and the perception of that conference. Why be the conference that pulls its pants down and turns around for a ND or UT? Especially, if your tin-foil conspiracy theories regarding the B1G punishing the ACC for ND are correct (although here in B1G country, the word is the B1G has moved on after being publicly jilted twice).

I like the idea of rotating divisions. Yes, it may cost some schools an annual rivalry, but strengthening the conference should be more important.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If the Big 12 comes unglued, the ACC has a decent chance to land Texas in an ND-type deal. If the Big 12 comes unglued, the time table for ND feeling a need to take the final plunge gets closer, and the ACC is not adding a 16th unless it plays a role in getting ND into the full football mix.

WVU is not part of that.

ND isn't joining unless forced. If the B12 fell apart the ACC should add Texas with a ND deal, WV, and Cincy. For football you can go to the pods solving the scheduling issue. For BBall you play everyone once and your main rival a 2nd time. Also having an even number of BBall teams helps with scheduling. If and when ND decides to join, it will mean that Texas is coming too as a full member. ND won't walk away because of WV.

 

[TheCusian]

This whole thing makes the B1G look weak, insecure, and petty. Why should they care how a conference decides it's champion?

 

[orange79]

I would take WVU over UConn any dat any year any hour. But WVU is not a school/team that matters to ND. Like it or not, all ACC members have to face the fact that ND as a full football member is the only move that matters for us.

Hence, my repeated emphasis over the past 5 or 6 years (long before ND became a 5/8ths member of ACC football) on Navy football. The Navy issue is the main reason I was thrilled that the BT took Maryland off our hands. WE now have a need for a team in the Dc/Baltimore area.

And as that move gets closer (ND is going to have to make it eventually), Syracuse should be behind the scenes quietly arguing that the ACC should add Navy for football and lacrosse and should add Georgetown for basketball, to have a basketball presence in DC/MD to stick it to Twerps hoops.

I had my finger on the Like button, but you lost me at Georgetown. The only teams that move the needle for partial membership are ND and Tejas. No one else. No one. If Navy is in - they have to be all in. Trust us - we're from the Big East. We know how the hybrid works.

 

[orange79]

This whole thing makes the B1G look weak, insecure, and petty. Why should they care how a conference decides it's champion?

Because I think J1M Delaney is a selfish bully, who totally enjoys throwing his weight around.

 

[SU68]

I would take WVU over UConn any dat any year any hour. But WVU is not a school/team that matters to ND. Like it or not, all ACC members have to face the fact that ND as a full football member is the only move that matters for us.

Hence, my repeated emphasis over the past 5 or 6 years (long before ND became a 5/8ths member of ACC football) on Navy football. The Navy issue is the main reason I was thrilled that the BT took Maryland off our hands. WE now have a need for a team in the Dc/Baltimore area.

And as that move gets closer (ND is going to have to make it eventually), Syracuse should be behind the scenes quietly arguing that the ACC should add Navy for football and lacrosse and should add Georgetown for basketball, to have a basketball presence in DC/MD to stick it to Twerps hoops.

It almost sounds like you are advocating a new incarnations of the old Big East with its competing factions. How well did that work for you?

 

[shantydaze]

Because I think J1M Delaney is a selfish bully, who totally enjoys throwing his weight around.

. . . or he is simply trying to protect his conference. The ACC was essentially asking for the other conferences to allow it to rig the system to guarantee a spot in the playoff each year. If the B1G tried to do so, the indignation on this board would be deafening.

The ACC should have been more specific and provided a proposed model to the other conferences instead of a vaguely worded proposal. I want certainty for all the conferences, especially the XII, when setting up their teams to get into the playoff.

 

[Moontan]

Just to be clear, I'm opposed to North (Big East) vs. South (old ACC) divisions. It's a horrible model for the ACC.

3-5-5 or 16 schools in 4 pods is the way to go.

Short of that, rotating divisions on 4-year intra-conference agreement basis is the way move forward.
Re-evaluate every 4 years... it's not rocket surgery.

 

[Moontan]

. . . or he is simply trying to protect his conference. The ACC was essentially asking for the other conferences to allow it to rig the system to guarantee a spot in the playoff each year. If the B1G tried to do so, the indignation on this board would be deafening.

Which is where an 8-team playoff, in which each P5 conference defines its own champion - and the committee picks the other 3 and seeding, makes the most sense.

 

[shantydaze]

Which is where an 8-team playoff, in which each P5 conference defines its own champion - and the committee picks the other 3 and seeding, makes the most sense.

I agree. Although I would give automatic berths to three of the Group of 5 conferences. This would force ND to join the ACC. If there are three at-large teams in the mix, ND will never shed its independence.

 

[Moontan]

I agree. Although I would give automatic berths to three of the Group of 5 conferences. This would force ND to join the ACC. If there are three at-large teams in the mix, ND will never shed its independence.

Will never happen... SEC and B1G would expect a second entry in most years.

 

[Btstimpy]

I would take WVU over UConn any dat any year any hour. But WVU is not a school/team that matters to ND. Like it or not, all ACC members have to face the fact that ND as a full football member is the only move that matters for us.

Hence, my repeated emphasis over the past 5 or 6 years (long before ND became a 5/8ths member of ACC football) on Navy football. The Navy issue is the main reason I was thrilled that the BT took Maryland off our hands. WE now have a need for a team in the Dc/Baltimore area.

And as that move gets closer (ND is going to have to make it eventually), Syracuse should be behind the scenes quietly arguing that the ACC should add Navy for football and lacrosse and should add Georgetown for basketball, to have a basketball presence in DC/MD to stick it to Twerps hoops.

If the ACC were to invite Navy, they should be invited for all sports, not partial. We should not have basketball schools that don't have football like the Big East had either. I know we're technically doing that with Notre Dame, but we get 5 football games. ND is a different situation.

The only situations where I think we could support partial members is when it helps the ACC add a new sport, and only then if it's something the ACC television network wants to add for content. I certainly hope we get this network. An example could be to invite New Hampshire and George Washington women's gymnastics because UNC, NCState, and Pitt already have women's gymnastics. Or invite part of the Hockey East partially to add Ice Hockey, or form a partnership with Hockey East for the ACC Channel.

I like WVU because of regional rivalries. I think they are a good thing. WVU has them with VT, Pitt, and Syracuse. But I realize they don't with Notre Dame.

 

[WoadBlue]

Because I think J1M Delaney is a selfish bully, who totally enjoys throwing his weight around.

He is - he is the smarmy punk who must be highlighted as the smartest guy in the room, or else he will act out to try to prove it.

 

[WoadBlue]

I agree. Although I would give automatic berths to three of the Group of 5 conferences. This would force ND to join the ACC. If there are three at-large teams in the mix, ND will never shed its independence.

And in, say, 1967, virtually 100% of ND fans and college football journalists were 100% certain that ND would never agree to play in bowls, and the 1966 Natty without a bowl appearance and sealed the deal.

But within 3 years the Irish would turn their back on that tradition, and once they did, they never looked back.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Just to be clear, I'm opposed to North (Big East) vs. South (old ACC) divisions. It's a horrible model for the ACC.

3-5-5 or 16 schools in 4 pods is the way to go.

Short of that, rotating divisions on 4-year intra-conference agreement basis is the way move forward.
Re-evaluate every 4 years... it's not rocket surgery.

The ACC could go to 4 pods of 3 teams now, while keeping FSU and Miami fixed into the Atlantic and Coastal.

Atlantic: FSU
Coastal: Miami

North: BC, Pitt, SU
East: Duke, UNC, UVA
West: Louisville, VA Tech, Wake
South: Clemson, GA Tech, NC State

This grouping would really only impact Wake, but oh well. They would go from playing Duke and NC State yearly to only 2 times each in 3 years. However they would also go from 1 game in 6 years vs UNC to 1 game every 3 years.

 

[WoadBlue]

It almost sounds like you are advocating a new incarnations of the old Big East with its competing factions. How well did that work for you?

AS I wasn't in the BE in any way, shape, or form , the BE problems did not work in any way for me. I am a UNC grad, and I always hated the BE - people who have known me as a poster back to the start of this century will know that I always said that because the BE become a 2-headed monster, it would die, and also that I cheered for the coming death of the BE.

The BE problem, the one it could never get past, was that it was founded exclusively as a basketball league. Of the 7 charter members, only Cuse and BC played 1A football. The 9th member, Pitt, also played 1A football, meaning that only 1/3rd of the BE in its classic golden age, before BE football, played 1A football. And that meant that the non-1A football schools would resent BE football, as taking some of their power and media interest. And the basketball schools held the power - which is the reason the BE today is the non-1A football schools. The basketball schools power was so complete that in 1998, when Tranghese learned that Miami was petitioning the ACC, which would mean all other football programs that could do so also would jump to the ACC, he offered the ACC Miami, Cuse, BC, and Pitt (the first 4 BE members that played 1A football) for football season, as long as they would remain in BE basketball.

That's the power the non-football BE schools had: they intended to kill BE football to save BE basketball at full strength.

The ACC having Navy for football and Georgetown for basketball would be nothing like the BE mess. That would be just 2 schools in the same TV market sharing 1 revenue sports slot. And the reason to have them would be to replace Maryland fully.

 

[TheCusian]

. . . or he is simply trying to protect his conference. The ACC was essentially asking for the other conferences to allow it to rig the system to guarantee a spot in the playoff each year. If the B1G tried to do so, the indignation on this board would be deafening. The ACC should have been more specific and provided a proposed model to the other conferences instead of a vaguely worded proposal. I want certainty for all the conferences, especially the XII, when setting up their teams to get into the playoff.

This could not be further from the truth. I could care less at how the B1G decides it's championship game. There is no way to rig it - it's about who you beat. If a conference decides to make it easy on a team, they hurt that team. Play the best, beat the best and you're in.

 

[Btstimpy]

AS I wasn't in the BE in any way, shape, or form , the BE problems did not work in any way for me. I am a UNC grad, and I always hated the BE - people who have known me as a poster back to the start of this century will know that I always said that because the BE become a 2-headed monster, it would die, and also that I cheered for the coming death of the BE.

The BE problem, the one it could never get past, was that it was founded exclusively as a basketball league. Of the 7 charter members, only Cuse and BC played 1A football. The 9th member, Pitt, also played 1A football, meaning that only 1/3rd of the BE in its classic golden age, before BE football, played 1A football. And that meant that the non-1A football schools would resent BE football, as taking some of their power and media interest. And the basketball schools held the power - which is the reason the BE today is the non-1A football schools. The basketball schools power was so complete that in 1998, when Tranghese learned that Miami was petitioning the ACC, which would mean all other football programs that could do so also would jump to the ACC, he offered the ACC Miami, Cuse, BC, and Pitt (the first 4 BE members that played 1A football) for football season, as long as they would remain in BE basketball.

That's the power the non-football BE schools had: they intended to kill BE football to save BE basketball at full strength.

The ACC having Navy for football and Georgetown for basketball would be nothing like the BE mess. That would be just 2 schools in the same TV market sharing 1 revenue sports slot. And the reason to have them would be to replace Maryland fully.

The ACC doesn't need to replace Maryland. It really shouldn't try. A lot of Maryland's problems are caused by 7 professional sports franchises within 40 miles of the Maryland campus. Between the Washington Redskins, Capitals, Wizards, Nationals, and DC United along with the Baltimore Ravens and Orioles, there is no oxygen left in the sports entertainment attention left for Maryland. Navy is another story entirely being a national brand that would help entice Notre Dame and also would move their home games around to different venues to promote the ACC.

Outside of Navy, the ACC should look for teams that would take us into brand new markets that aren't so clogged with professional sports and care about college sports. West Virginia and UConn do this in the east. Then if the Big XII implodes there are some other possibilities there. If the ACC wants another large city team, I like to keep an eye on Temple to complement Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania. Another possibility is South Florida. The ACC has tried on multiple occasions to turn Tampa into an ACC town to no avail. We have had both the men's basketball tournament there and the football championship game. Maybe if South Florida joined the ACC could get its wish.

So we have some other choices.

 

[Hoo's That]

According to one of our board gurus in a position to know, Texas was offered the ND deal by the ACC before ND was an turned it down. Maybe it's time to ask them again?