Requiem for the Big East

[longislandcuse]

The next 30 for 30 looks even better..

 

[Halo]

The next 30 for 30 looks even better..

If you don't know who Scal is, you don't watch basketball. He's what the sport is all about. Athletic poetry.

 

[Briancuse]

Right, the old Georgetown AD can smugly say Penn State didn't do anything for Georgetown and it wasn't his problem to fix Syracuse's football problem. But we're the bad guy for fixing our problem.

There is so much bitterness between the basketball only schools, and the ones who have big time football programs.

 

[Cheriehoop]

One more vote and it would have changed everything.

They never said who the three schools were who voted against Penn St.

It was Georgetown, St John's and Villanova that voted against it. Mike Tranghese years later confirmed that Syracuse didn't vote against Penn St despite JoePa always blaming Syracuse. SI confirmed the programs who voted against Penn St in an article by Alexander Wolff last year. Why it took so long to become public is BS. It's also BS that Gavitt/Providence blew up the deal. Gavitt actually went to bat for Penn State and Providence voted "yea" in 1982. Why some like to perpetuate the Providence myth too is strange.

It's also obvious that the basketball onlies and/or Catholic schools weren't united in voting against Penn St either since BC, Seton Hall, Providence, UConn and SU all voted for Penn St. The stated explanations why they voted against Penn State's entry was because Penn State had no history of success nor interest in their own basketball program and that they were also in a small tv market area that didn't care about basketball. Remember in 1982 the only members playing major D1-A football of the 8 members were SU and BC. UConn was considered a basketball only also since they played D1-AA in the old Yankee conference as was Georgetown who played D3 football.

Here's the article by Wolff and note the part regarding BC and SU's response to Paterno's overtures after 1982 and revenue sharing. I started on page 4 and read to the end and then went back to read the entire article.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1207115/4/index.htm

Divergent priorities, interests, perspectives and the lack of gifted leadership doomed the Big East. I don't see a real "goat" in this entire process - just individual schools all looking out for their own selfish individual interests and trying to maximize revenue. It's sad but it did seem inevitable unless they committed more to each other than they did to $ and programs felt they couldn't afford it anymore to stay relevant. Many members don't seem as upset at members leaving as how the members left and what they perceive as the secrecy and deceit needed to pull it off. Unfortunately that may have been unavoidable too.

 

[Jake]

Lots of different thoughts on this topic. First off , Hak, you haven't a frigging clue if you didn't live it. I mean, not a clue. This isn't an issue that you can "just imagine what it was like".

That's not to say in retrospect some of the signs nod remarks back in the day didn't make me feel uncomfortable...but the truth is, these remarks are all in reaction to concepts that big john embraced and promulgated.

Georgetown had t shirts that said Hoya paranoia. John conveniently instituted. "My freshmen don't talk to the media" rule Patricks freshman year...knowing that it would add to speculation that Patrick wasn't smart. Michael graham...really? The first prominent school to embrace the color black in its uniform.

The passive aggressive manner that John Thompson used race is undeniable and indisputable.

 

[Cheriehoop]

This documentary changed my view of the Penn State issue. Its easy to be a visionary 30 years after the fact.

But the Big East was started as a basketball conference and didn't see the value of adding a rural football school with no bball history. TV contracts were not part of the discussion at that time.

While I don't agree with it, I understand the decision a bit more.

I always wondered how Pitt fit in on the voting and the reason another vote was never taken after 1982. Would Pitt have wanted Penn St in the original Big East basketball only league?

 

[SWC75]

I just pre-ordered the DVD, which will be out "on or after" May 6th. $21.17, inclduing taxes and shipping.

http://sportsdvd.cbscollegestore.com/store_contents.cfm?store_id=204&product_id=247270

 

[Col. Bleep]

John Thompson- still a jackass.

Is that really necessary?
It's a complete insult to jacka--es.

 

[Cuseregular]

One of my takeaways from the whole thing was "this will be praised in 49 states. West Virginia will hate it.

just like "The Express", the truth hurts. (for the sake of historical accuracy what occured in the movie didn't occur the year they showed down there but in an earlier game there).

 

[SWC75]

just like "The Express", the truth hurts. (for the sake of historical accuracy what occured in the movie didn't occur the year they showed down there but in an earlier game there).

What earlier game? I've been doing a series of posts on the seasons leading up to the 1959 national title and have never heard of Ben holding back black players from scoring to prevent a riot in West Virginia. The original script had the game at North Carolina. But when they realized we didn't play North Carolina until 1995, they changed it to West Virginia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Express

 

[PeteCalvin]

Mostly, because he didn't have a work ethic. He was so talented that he didn't have to work hard to excel.

When he got to the NBA, he was up against players who were willing to cut off their own arm just to stay in the league. Him not having the same drive worked against him.

Not knocking him--Pearl is one of my all time favorites. But we saw some of the same while he was in school. In the early preseason portion of the schedule, he'd just go through the motions--meanwhile, these small school kids would be sky high to play him. It stood in marked contrast to Sherman, who wanted to kill everyone he played.

But during big games, nobody was better. Pearl was unreal.

Pearl stated in an interview one time during the 90's (after his bout with the brain tumor) that he essentially lost his love of the game in the pros. Once he saw it was all a business, he no longer had fun playing. He went on to add that his biggest mistake was leaving Syracuse early. They were the best days of his life. If he could have done it differently he would have finished his senior year.

 

[Czar]

Lots of different thoughts on this topic. First off , Hak, you haven't a frigging clue if you didn't live it. I mean, not a clue. This isn't an issue that you can "just imagine what it was like".

That's not to say in retrospect some of the signs nod remarks back in the day didn't make me feel uncomfortable...but the truth is, these remarks are all in reaction to concepts that big john embraced and promulgated.

Georgetown had t shirts that said Hoya paranoia. John conveniently instituted. "My freshmen don't talk to the media" rule Patricks freshman year...knowing that it would add to speculation that Patrick wasn't smart. Michael graham...really? The first prominent school to embrace the color black in its uniform.

The passive aggressive manner that John Thompson used race is undeniable and indisputable.

Honestly, probably being the same thing as Hak, this comes off as "they didn't do things the normal (white) way and are upstarts."

I'm putting a lot of words in mouths, but that's what this comes off as.

 

[CuseTroop]

Haha. Nycfan gets airtime .

I swear I thought that, but I thought I was seeing things cause I was drunk.

Good air time nycfan lol

 

[doc05]

I think people need to take off their orange blinders (if they are capable of doing that on this forum), and try to see how they are coming across to others when trying to justify some of these attacks on John Thompson, Patrick Ewing etc., that clearly go beyond being about simply basketball in my eyes. Unfortunately there is a whole social dynamic surrounding the issue - that apparently some people either refuse to see, or are incapable of seeing. I don't want to turn this into a social commentary thread - so I will leave it at that - and say we can agree to disagree.

 

[jtorange]

I loved this. I wasn't alive during most of the content but it had a full 100% of my attention. Had to call my Dad right after, luckily he watched too. It gave me a glimpse into why he and many have always considered Georgetown a bigger rival than UConn. Great stuff.

I used to say "If you want to be an SU fan there are 2 requirements: 1. You have to love SU 2. You have to hate Georgetown ... and it's not clear which of the two is more important"

 

[OrlandoCuse]

The next 30 for 30 looks even better..

That looks so well done you have to think it will be instant Emmy material. ;-)

 

[texascpa]

I kid you not, after watching this last night, I ended up having a dream in which Jim Burr threw out 2 St. John's band members for yelling at him about his officiating. I then approached him and told him that what he did was one of the greatest injustices I have ever witnessed and wept for how he trampled our freedom of speech.

 

[realorange]

So know you call out my basketball knowledge because I'm calling out a mod for a comment that quite frankly was stupid and childish? Cool. Clearly Mullin was not nearly the aggressive, "physical" player that Ewing was. Ewing wasn't called the Hoya Destroya for nothing.

The point I was making was that Georgetown's play wasn't that much out of the ordinary for a rough, upstart, physical league. The only difference was that Georgetown was made up of majority black players.

Why did so many people have a problem with Georgetown's Kente cloth shorts in the 90's?

Coincidence? Sure. But when you call black players "thugs," don't try to tell me that there's not some racial message there. Just ask Richard Sherman what he thinks. He'll tell you. And quite frankly, I agree with him.

I probably have as little prejudice as anyone on this board and when I say that Georgetown was a bunch of thugs, it has NOTHING to do with them being black. As Pearl said, they were coached to be the way they were.
Georgetown's play was the pinnacle of rough play in the Big East to the point of dirty. The other teams played tough but not close to Georgetown standards.
I don't know what your hang-up is regarding many of our descriptions of Georgetown, because it was what it was. Please just let it go.

 

[OrangeCuse44]

Any link to the 30 for 30 bonus content? Or do we have to wait for the DVD?

 

[jec1521]

I wasn't around in the 80s, but they look like thugs to me. I never knew Ewing choked a player like that. Damn.

 

[storange]

Wow, watching with my 13 year old son was awesome. Now he knows why I'm so indifferent to the ACC. It will never be the Big East in this old man's eyes. I came of age with BE basketball. It was a great show but extremely melancholy for me.

 

[Guinness]

Wow, watching with my 13 year old son was awesome. Now he knows why I'm so indifferent to the ACC. It will never be the Big East in this old man's eyes. I came of age with BE basketball. It was a great show but extremely melancholy for me.

It was a great episode because it showed some of the younger fans why many of us older guys were not sad to leave the BE for the ACC. Our BE died with the first influx of expansion teams. The league many of us grew up with and grew to love is not the league we left.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

I think people need to take off their orange blinders (if they are capable of doing that on this forum), and try to see how they are coming across to others when trying to justify some of these attacks on John Thompson, Patrick Ewing etc., that clearly go beyond being about simply basketball in my eyes. Unfortunately there is a whole social dynamic surrounding the issue - that apparently some people either refuse to see, or are incapable of seeing. I don't want to turn this into a social commentary thread - so I will leave it at that - and say we can agree to disagree.

Just so wrong, so deluded, so misled, so lied to, so agenda-fied. I really feel sorry for you.

 

[MGP]

Yeah, but it's one thing to have players go over the line from time to time because of emotion. It's quite another to have a coach and a program institutionalize it, embrace it, coach it, encourage it, and market it.

Spot on. Intimidation, bullying, embracing dirty play - much different. Again, if you didn't live through it, you won't get it. The sympathertic picture painted by the documentary while in some ways true, doesn't tell the whole story. Thompson's "protecting" of his players in many ways perpetuated the situation...

 

[Orange Barrel]

He put his hands around opposing players' necks and chocked them. During a game. JT condoned and encouraged it. Thugs. No way to sugar coat it.