The Smart Scheduling Bowl

[TheCusian]

Depends on what your define as "Rise". BC and Syracuse are never ever ever going to be perpetual top 10 programs. The history of both programs show me enough evidence to be confident stating that. Both programs, which are very similar, thrive with continuity and the patience of the fan base to accept and relish good results vs demanding excellence like a Clemson and FSU. I think it's a good way to view these programs. Even Marrone at his apex, won 8 games. If we were looking at Marrone season 8 or 9 right now, we'd be happy if he kept winning 8-9 games and going to bowls each year (like Tom O'Brien did).

With Addazio moving into year 5, he's going to offer continuity and consistency to recruits and that's something they can build on. Next year OOC, they play Uconn, Central Michigan, Northern Illinios and ND (at home vs us who plays them always on the road or on the road). They could win all of those games.

So "time" is your answer?

I agree that it helps, but if recruiting isn't getting better, there's not a lot of proof in the last 4 years that next year will be better. Someone did a lot of looking at new hires and how long it takes to see if they are any good. Year 3 was the year you start to see noticible improvement.

That's not this years OOC, that's for sure. ND will be better than them by a lot talent-wise. No FCS team. 2x the MACtion. And... well yeah ... they should wreck UCONN.

 

[TheCusian]

Every place else Clawson has coached , his teams have won the conference title and he has won coach of the year . But now you can see he has hit his cieling , you really believe your that capable of analyzing coaches ?

Stay with me. Most all P5 coaches are competent (some outliers). That's how they got hired. If you're not a system guy, it's really hard to punch above your weight. You are what your talent is (that's true for system guys too). Clawson is not a system guy, he's a development guy. Which is fine. It means his teams tend to get better over time as talent matures.

His problem is a "Dabo and Jimbo" problem. They trump all of that with superior talent and they are exceptional coaches.

Development guys like Clawson will always have a talent and coaching deficiency vs them. He did not see the difference in talent at his other stops. This happens to a lot of low P5 coaches, btw.

(Babers is a system guy who can punch above his weight. That allows, in theory, for him to build momentum to get better recruits than Wake. That's our moon shot.)

I think I'm no more or less qualified to analyze coaching than you are.

 

[Chris02M]

Depends on what your define as "Rise". BC and Syracuse are never ever ever going to be perpetual top 10 programs. The history of both programs show me enough evidence to be confident stating that. Both programs, which are very similar, thrive with continuity and the patience of the fan base to accept and relish good results vs demanding excellence like a Clemson and FSU. I think it's a good way to view these programs. Even Marrone at his apex, won 8 games. If we were looking at Marrone season 8 or 9 right now, we'd be happy if he kept winning 8-9 games and going to bowls each year (like Tom O'Brien did).

With Addazio moving into year 5, he's going to offer continuity and consistency to recruits and that's something they can build on. Next year OOC, they play Uconn, Central Michigan, Northern Illinios and ND (at home vs us who plays them always on the road or on the road). They could win all of those games.

we have nd at home coming up in 2022

 

[CousCuse]

Stay with me. Most all P5 coaches are competent (some outliers). That's how they got hired. If you're not a system guy, it's really hard to punch above your weight. You are what your talent is (that's true for system guys too). Clawson is not a system guy, he's a development guy. Which is fine. It means his teams tend to get better over time as talent matures.

His problem is a "Dabo and Jimbo" problem. They trump all of that with superior talent and they are exceptional coaches.

Development guys like Clawson will always have a talent and coaching deficiency vs them. He did not see the difference in talent at his other stops. This happens to a lot of low P5 coaches, btw.

(Babers is a system guy who can punch above his weight. That allows, in theory, for him to build momentum to get better recruits than Wake. That's our moon shot.)

I think I'm no more or less qualified to analyze coaching than you are.

I believe you may be surprised next year how strong BC and WF become , even to take down the big dogs .

 

[TheCusian]

I believe you may be surprised next year how strong BC and WF become , even to take down the big dogs .

Let's remember this post shall we? Not everyone can get better every year.

 

[CousCuse]

Let's remember this post shall we? Not everyone can get better every year.

I didn't review BC's roster , but when I went thru Wake's and saw 72 RSOPH's and younger , I thought that this team is going to be a real problem in the next 2 years .

 

[Ottoble]

There are two questions worth asking when it comes to scheduling:

- Are we competing for our division on the regular? If so: Schedule up.
- Does our recruiting allow us to compete with the top of the division? If not: Schedule down.

Yes except these schedules are made years in advance so you have to build in a cycle communicating with your coaching staff based on current talent levels in each class.
You schedule up to your big game when all your best guys are seniors and juniors to take down a team that loses half their starters to the NFL every year.
You Schedule down when you expect a talented or deep class to graduate before a season.

 

[TheCusian]

Yes except these schedules are made years in advance so you have to build in a cycle communicating with your coaching staff based on current talent levels in each class.
You schedule up to your big game when all your best guys are seniors and juniors to take down a team that loses half their starters to the NFL every year.
You Schedule down when you expect a talented or deep class to graduate before a season.

Agreed. That's why it's insane to have LSU and Wiscy on the schedule. Our recruiting hasn't justified those games in a long, long time.

I still think there should be a "can't schedule any games past 4 years" rule. Not sure how it would be enforced, but it would be good for CFB.

 

[TheCusian]

I didn't review BC's roster , but when I went thru Wake's and saw 72 RSOPH's and younger , I thought that this team is going to be a real problem in the next 2 years .

How many young players on our roster?

Truth is that a lot of the true freshman FSU and Clemson get are better than the upperclassmen on the low P5 teams.

Wakes recruiting is like ours.

 

[CousCuse]

How many young players on our roster?

Truth is that a lot of the true freshman FSU and Clemson get are better than the upperclassmen on the low P5 teams.

Wakes recruiting is like ours.

After some reflection on how strong the ACC is becoming , I agree . Schedule as easy of games as possible OOC .

 

[djorange1989]

Agreed. That's why it's insane to have LSU and Wiscy on the schedule. Our recruiting hasn't justified those games in a long, long time.

I still think there should be a "can't schedule any games past 4 years" rule. Not sure how it would be enforced, but it would be good for CFB.

Yep, all we have to do is look at the last fifteen seasons: never in the top 25, only 4 bowl games, over .500 only three times. With few exceptions, we have always scheduled very tough OOC, that obviously has done nothing to help this program, it has only hurt us. Until we are good, and good consistently, scheduling teams like LSU and Wisconsin is nuts. We have to play ND every 2-3 years, that should be the only tough OOC game we schedule until this program is clearly turned around. Too late for that idea, with LSU and Wisconsin(2x) already a done deal.

 

[Mr Peabody]

For the life of me I cannot figure out why some people here struggle with this. The casual fans at my work want to see the "big" games in the dome, but are the first to jump off the band wagon when they go winless through September

Casual fan at work here. We can agree to disagree on this one - I have no more desire to come to the dome and watch SU beat cupcakes than I do to watch them get destroyed in a "big" game. I was more than happy to get out of the Big East - and out of the low tier bowls by beating up cupcakes and going .500 in a weak league. I understand the extra practices are good and if that's the motivation okay. I also understand this is what will happen as we build the program and I'm good with that because it meant we won at least 6 games against a decent schedule. However, going out of conference to pick up 3 or 4 wins for the sake of a bowl doesn't interest me. JMO.

 

[RMH44]

Casual fan at work here. We can agree to disagree on this one - I have no more desire to come to the dome and watch SU beat cupcakes than I do to watch them get destroyed in a "big" game. I was more than happy to get out of the Big East - and out of the low tier bowls by beating up cupcakes and going .500 in a weak league. I understand the extra practices are good and if that's the motivation okay. I also understand this is what will happen as we build the program and I'm good with that because it meant we won at least 6 games against a decent schedule. However, going out of conference to pick up 3 or 4 wins for the sake of a bowl doesn't interest me. JMO.

We have plenty of big time opponents on our ACC schedule to keep me happy. At this point, we have 3 baked in losses before we even kick-off. We need to counter by scheduling appropriately.

Why in the world are we scheduling the LSU's and Wisconsin's of the world at this point in our program? Why be their equivalent to our Colgate? Really dumb, imo.

 

[OrangePA]

We have plenty of big time opponents on our ACC schedule to keep me happy. At this point, we have 3 baked in losses before we even kick-off. We need to counter by scheduling appropriately.

Why in the world are we scheduling the LSU's and Wisconsin's of the world at this point in our program? Why be their equivalent to our Colgate? Really dumb, imo.

I would answer you as follows: (1) we are not Colgate; (2) we are a major football program that should play a difficult schedule; (3) playing LSU and ND and Wisconsin helps recruit players who want to face the best programs in the USA; (3) CNY fans - having been used to major competition in BB - want to see great football programs in the Dome; (4) by the time we schedule into the future we should be back to where we want to be.

So, I'm willing to defer to the BCs in the short term and not make a small-time bowl in return for a first class schedule and a first class program.

I see the logic in your scheduling argument, don't get me wrong, but for me, I like the approach we have taken at this point.

 

[rocklloyd]

Casual fan at work here. We can agree to disagree on this one - I have no more desire to come to the dome and watch SU beat cupcakes than I do to watch them get destroyed in a "big" game. I was more than happy to get out of the Big East - and out of the low tier bowls by beating up cupcakes and going .500 in a weak league. I understand the extra practices are good and if that's the motivation okay. I also understand this is what will happen as we build the program and I'm good with that because it meant we won at least 6 games against a decent schedule. However, going out of conference to pick up 3 or 4 wins for the sake of a bowl doesn't interest me. JMO.

ugh. dislike.

we're rebuilding a program. How can we get out of mediocrity by continuing these scheduling practices. Not saying we do it forever, but we need to shake off the last 15 years respectable W-L records

 

[CousCuse]

I'm wondering what P5 team SU could schedule for a sure win 4 or 5 years down the road . Like Purdue , Brohm could have them at the top in 5 years . Just make sure the other 3 non P5 OOC are easily winnable .

 

[djorange1989]

I'm wondering what P5 team SU could schedule for a sure win 4 or 5 years down the road . Like Purdue , Brohm could have them at the top in 5 years . Just make sure the other 3 non P5 OOC are easily winnable .

there is always some risk involved, Purdue could be good by then, sure. Maybe Kansas is somehow good in 4-5 years. But the chances of that are less than an LSU or Wisconsin being bad. So, go the Purdue/Kansas/Illinois route and hopefully it works out well. Better chance that does than LSU or Wisconsin

 

[orange79]

I would answer you as follows: (1) we are not Colgate; (2) we are a major football program that should play a difficult schedule; (3) playing LSU and ND and Wisconsin helps recruit players who want to face the best programs in the USA; (3) CNY fans - having been used to major competition in BB - want to see great football programs in the Dome; (4) by the time we schedule into the future we should be back to where we want to be.

So, I'm willing to defer to the BCs in the short term and not make a small-time bowl in return for a first class schedule and a first class program.

I see the logic in your scheduling argument, don't get me wrong, but for me, I like the approach we have taken at this point.

We need to win and make bowls to be successful, improve recruiting, etc. Scheduling the way we have makes that much more difficult, if not next to impossible, IMO.

 

[djorange1989]

I would answer you as follows: (1) we are not Colgate; (2) we are a major football program that should play a difficult schedule; (3) playing LSU and ND and Wisconsin helps recruit players who want to face the best programs in the USA; (3) CNY fans - having been used to major competition in BB - want to see great football programs in the Dome; (4) by the time we schedule into the future we should be back to where we want to be.

So, I'm willing to defer to the BCs in the short term and not make a small-time bowl in return for a first class schedule and a first class program.

I see the logic in your scheduling argument, don't get me wrong, but for me, I like the approach we have taken at this point.

We already face the best in Clemson, FSU and Louisville every single year, plus ND every 2-3 years. I see ZERO evidence that recruiting has been aided by the OOC schedule we have played. Unless I am forgetting, I think the only regular season OOC P5 wins we have since Marrone took over (to keep things more recent) are Northwestern in 2009 and Mizzou in 2012. USC? Swept us. Penn State? Swept us. Notre Dame? Swept both Met Life games. Washington? Beat us in 2010(and 2007 but we will leave GERG out of this). Minnesota? swept us. Northwestern? Beat us in both 2012 and 2013 after that 2009 win. We played FSU and Louisville in the Dome this year, attendance sucked. Why? because this team has been losing and has now missed a bowl for 3 straight years, which is very hard to do. We win, no matter what the competition, fans will start coming back and recruiting will get better and better. Losing all the OOC games I listed above has done the opposite. We have had other problems of course, namely losing a ton of ACC games and losing to USF twice, but the OOC philosophy has sent us over the cliff.

 

[CousCuse]

there is always some risk involved, Purdue could be good by then, sure. Maybe Kansas is somehow good in 4-5 years. But the chances of that are less than an LSU or Wisconsin being bad. So, go the Purdue/Kansas/Illinois route and hopefully it works out well. Better chance that does than LSU or Wisconsin

If they win 3 OOC then they will have to win 2 or 3 in conference to get a bowl . If they can't reasonably expect to win 2 or 3 games say , 60% of the time in conference play , they should leave the conference .

 

[KaiserUEO]

BC has gone to 3 bowls in 4 seasons. No one cares we beat BC a few times but everyone looks at the 1 bowl in 4 seasons

Meadowlands games were a financial gain at the expense of wins.

and yet not 1 loss ever cost us a bowl game.

but we gained a 4star QB in DeVito.

 

[djorange1989]

If they win 3 OOC then they will have to win 2 or 3 in conference to get a bowl . If they can't reasonably expect to win 2 or 3 games say , 60% of the time in conference play , they should leave the conference .

why not schedule it so that 3 conference wins gives us a 7-5 season vs 6-6? I don't get the appeal of losing these so called headline OOC games all the time, I really don't. it does nothing good for us, it just adds a loss and often a non-competitive national TV loss. what good does it do? recruiting? please. money? ok, but we are in the ACC now, not the Big East, so the need isn't anywhere near what it was before 2013.

 

[TheCusian]

I would answer you as follows: (1) we are not Colgate; (2) we are a major football program that should play a difficult schedule; (3) playing LSU and ND and Wisconsin helps recruit players who want to face the best programs in the USA; (3) CNY fans - having been used to major competition in BB - want to see great football programs in the Dome; (4) by the time we schedule into the future we should be back to where we want to be.

So, I'm willing to defer to the BCs in the short term and not make a small-time bowl in return for a first class schedule and a first class program.

I see the logic in your scheduling argument, don't get me wrong, but for me, I like the approach we have taken at this point.

We play the best already. The only teams playing our schedule in our division both played for national championships recently.

 

[OrangePA]

We play the best already. The only teams playing our schedule in our division both played for national championships recently.

I know.

I guess I was referring to the option of playing Colgate/UB/UMass/Maine/East Stroudsburg State vs. playing LSU, Wisconsin, ND.

I guess I'm just a "system poster"???

I can't help it???

 

[CousCuse]

Maryland is on the schedule in 2019 , should we try to duck out of that game too .