What must John Wildhack consider as he decides Dino Babers’ fate?

[phil77]

at the end of the day if Dino only wins a game coming in they really will have no choice. They simply can't bring him back with a 5-7 record. I don't think you can sell that at all. Their hand will be forced and they will have to figure it out. It may not be what they want to do but there is a threshold here. He's already been given EVERY opportunity possible to try and suceed here at Syracuse. Doesn't mean it will be any easier moving forward and they may have their hands tied a bit with what they can spend on a new coach but there are still options.

I mean lets not get ridiculous here

I think we have a problem either way and need to move on. I don't see how you can extend him no matter how he finishes now and it usually is a death sentence to have a lame duck coach. So I am not sure they can bring him back next year at all at this point.

 

[SuFTW]

Yeah. That's the rub here. You're stating in an article you don't have the money to be competitive. Which will be used against you when trying to recruit a new coach or support staff or players or portal kids.

Makes you look inept and not committed.

But it’s easy to see they are spending money on the program and there is plenty to point to, so anyone looking closely won’t be swayed by this article.

 

[elimunelson]

Tuiton is irrelevant. The athletic department supports itself and in this report was operation $6.4 million in the black.

At the time of this report, Football was a net +$14.9 million, and all ten of the women's teams operated at a loss of -$11 million. So, after paying for the football program and covering the cost of the ten women's programs, the football program was still $3.9 million in the black.

So
The ad doesn’t pay the tuitions to the school? Who handles those scholarships

 

[Consigliere]

Syracuse University Athletics Programs

Interested in participating in a sports program at Syracuse University? Find out the average sports scholarship awarded to each student athlete, how well Syracuse ranks for each sport, how much money is allocated to the sports team, and more.

www.collegefactual.com

Outstanding detail. I don’t see what year this data is from. Do you know?

 

[UpstateSM]

Trying to figure out athletic department accounting is a pointless endeavor because they intentionally operate below profitably.

 

[SuFTW]

Maybe pumping $150 million into facilities when that isn't the name of the game in college sports anymore isn't a great decision? Tell those donors that their money is better spent on NIL for recruiting/retention and attracting/maintaining a head coach and a competent and well-rounded coaching staff. Keep up with the times.

The excuses from SU and SUAD are so lame. Make better decisions. If Dino isn't gone after this season then there isn't a reason for Wildhack to the AD. Blah blah blah with the excuses but football is king and this is setting up to be pathetic.

You need the facilities too. Most other schools already have them.

 

[SuFTW]

I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is the AD screwed up by not having any leverage (buy out money) for a coach they hire. It could be any coach, not just Dino. I like the guy. I just don’t want him coaching our team anymore

We don’t actually know they don’t have the buy out money for next year.

 

[Dr. Bill]

I have been saying this for some time in multiple posts on this forum recently when discussing Syracuse football and why we are in the state we are in. My main point was that the poor state of SU football goes beyond who the coach is. Syracuse football is in a tough position now and moving forward because of a lack of money, compared to the top schools in the ACC and beyond, that many fans think we should be able to compete with. Many on this thread slammed me and said I was just making excuses for Babers.
Well, it is now in black and white in this article. I bleed Orange, but I am also a realist. The lack of funds...clouds every move, every desire to be great that we, who follow Syracuse football, wish for. In the landscape that we find ourselves in, 6-6. 7-5, and the occasional 8-4, may be the best that we can hope for.

 

[ORANGE OATH]

Not the biggest football fan, maybe our abysmal performance over the last decade has some impact on that. To me it seems obvious Dino is a great guy, but that does not necessarily merge with great coach and motivator.
I think it is now safe to say the time for a change has come. Doing the same thing over and over is, well crazy at a minimum and at some point stupid.
I like Dino, wish he had been widely successful here, but he can not say he wasn’t given an ample opportunity to succeed at Syracuse.

 

[Scooch]

I have been saying this for some time in multiple posts on this forum recently when discussing Syracuse football and why we are in the state we are in. My main point was that the poor state of SU football goes beyond who the coach is. Syracuse football is in a tough position now and moving forward because of a lack of money, compared to the top schools in the ACC and beyond, that many fans think we should be able to compete with. Many on this thread slammed me and said I was just making excuses for Babers.
Well, it is now in black and white in this article. I bleed Orange, but I am also a realist. The lack of funds...clouds every move, every desire to be great that we, who follow Syracuse football, wish for. In the landscape that we find ourselves in, 6-6. 7-5, and the occasional 8-4, may be the best that we can hope for.

I’ll keep saying it… if 6-6/7-5 is the “best” we can expect then we should downgrade the program. There’s no point in wasting everyone’s time and money for that outcome.

And I’m very serious when I say that.

However, I don’t believe that’s the best we can expect. So we should keep the program.

 

[baggerbob]

I’ll keep saying it… if 6-6/7-5 is the “best” we can expect then we should downgrade the program. There’s no point in wasting everyone’s time and money for that outcome.

And I’m very serious when I say that.

However, I don’t believe that’s the best we can expect. So we should keep the program.

A loss Friday night he should be gone Saturday Morning.

 

[Dr. Bill]

We don’t actually know they don’t have the buy out money for next year.

Schools that have money...don't sit around and publicly discuss buy out money, they just buy out the guy!!
We publishing articles about all the "Dead Money" we are spending on a terminated Attorney and an ex women's basketball coach...when schools like LSU, Fire Coach O, and still owe him over 3 miilion dollars a year, but still have money to hire a guy away from Notre Dame, Coach Kelly for what, almost 5 million Dollars a year. Wake Up SU Football Fans...Money talks and Bull Shizit walks. We don't have the money to play like the Big Boys, so therefore, we do what we do, because we are who we are. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[orangenauburn]

I have been saying this for some time in multiple posts on this forum recently when discussing Syracuse football and why we are in the state we are in. My main point was that the poor state of SU football goes beyond who the coach is. Syracuse football is in a tough position now and moving forward because of a lack of money, compared to the top schools in the ACC and beyond, that many fans think we should be able to compete with. Many on this thread slammed me and said I was just making excuses for Babers.
Well, it is now in black and white in this article. I bleed Orange, but I am also a realist. The lack of funds...clouds every move, every desire to be great that we, who follow Syracuse football, wish for. In the landscape that we find ourselves in, 6-6. 7-5, and the occasional 8-4, may be the best that we can hope for.

There is not a lack of funds. That is straight Marrone sandwich meat.

There is a lack of commitment to utilize available money to fund the program appropriately

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I’ll keep saying it… if 6-6/7-5 is the “best” we can expect then we should downgrade the program. There’s no point in wasting everyone’s time and money for that outcome.

And I’m very serious when I say that.

However, I don’t believe that’s the best we can expect. So we should keep the program.

Would you rather go 6-6 and cash $40 mil ACC checks, or do a UConn, blow up football and kiss the Big East ring?

The crappiest $40 mil job is still better than working at McDonalds.

 

[Dr. Bill]

There is not a lack of funds. That is straight Marrone sandwich meat.

There is a lack of commitment to utilize available money to fund the program appropriately

You are not being realistic if you believe that statement to be the real problem! People "With Money", use it to buy the things that they want! People "Without Money", develop strategies around priorities and categorize things based on needs and wants. You are saying a "Lack of Commitment" is what is keeping the vast cache of cash, that SU has, away from football. So, because LSU is more committed to football than Syracuse, they are willing to fire Coach O, and pay him the remainder of the almost 5 million dollars they owe him, while at the same time, hiring Coach Kelly away from Notre Dame, for what...like over 4 million a year?
So, commitment , and not money, is Syracuse's problem? ...Interesting!

 

[orangenauburn]

You are not being realistic if you believe that statement to be the real problem! People "With Money", use it to buy the things that they want! People "Without Money", develop strategies around priorities and categorize things based on needs and wants. You are saying a "Lack of Commitment" is what is keeping the vast cache of cash, that SU has, away from football. So, because LSU is more committed to football than Syracuse, they are willing to fire Coach O, and pay him the remainder of the almost 5 million dollars they owe him, while at the same time, hiring Coach Kelly away from Notre Dame, for what...like over 4 million a year?
So, commitment , and not money, is Syracuse's problem? ...Interesting!

Yes

They have been half assed about things for decades

When they decided it was ok to use the AD as a slush fund to fund other projects around campus instead of reinvesting into the program the way that peer programs were at the time, that shows a lack of commitment.

That shows a culture of complacency to be mediocre to average.

There is nothing wrong with being fiscally responsible.

But at the same time, in that level of business and with the dynamics in play within the industry, you cannot afford to be complacent or asleep at the wheel for decades.

Because of this, and the rapidly changing environment for college athletics, the school is now forced to spend hundreds of millions on facilities to catch up to average. By the time these upgrades are done, they are already falling behind and will need to plan on another round of massive upgrades.

And now we are scrambling to catch up in NIL, support services, etc - things that peer programs have been ahead of the curve or on top of for a good decade on us.

So now because the university must spend all of this money it feels and looks like a big commitment and investment (which don't get me wrong, it is), but it is still not enough.

They could spend another $100m on the programs and staffing and support services, and the school would probably still be on the fringe of the top 35 or so in terms of "commitment".

 

[upperdeck]

You are not being realistic if you believe that statement to be the real problem! People "With Money", use it to buy the things that they want! People "Without Money", develop strategies around priorities and categorize things based on needs and wants. You are saying a "Lack of Commitment" is what is keeping the vast cache of cash, that SU has, away from football. So, because LSU is more committed to football than Syracuse, they are willing to fire Coach O, and pay him the remainder of the almost 5 million dollars they owe him, while at the same time, hiring Coach Kelly away from Notre Dame, for what...like over 4 million a year?
So, commitment , and not money, is Syracuse's problem? ...Interesting!

LSU didnt pay any of that money though, Donors did.. if someone wants to throw 20 million to the AD he probably would be much more aggressive with hiring.firing

 

[IthacaBarrel]

You are not being realistic if you believe that statement to be the real problem! People "With Money", use it to buy the things that they want! People "Without Money", develop strategies around priorities and categorize things based on needs and wants. You are saying a "Lack of Commitment" is what is keeping the vast cache of cash, that SU has, away from football. So, because LSU is more committed to football than Syracuse, they are willing to fire Coach O, and pay him the remainder of the almost 5 million dollars they owe him, while at the same time, hiring Coach Kelly away from Notre Dame, for what...like over 4 million a year?
So, commitment , and not money, is Syracuse's problem? ...Interesting!

Coach O got paid 17 mil to exit stage left but your point is valid. The donors pay for this stuff though

 

[Dr. Bill]

Coach O got paid 17 mil to exit stage left but your point is valid. The donors pay for this stuff though

It all keeps coming back to what we as Cuse fans need to accept...We don't have the money to do what is going to be required to raise this program to the level we all dream of. Not in this new era where you can buy players. Coach O got 17 Million to walk!!!! Then they had enough money to get a coach from Notre Dame!!!! People on here want to talk about lack of commitment being the problem, that is only true if you say we have a lack of people committed to give us hundreds of millions of dollars, then yes, it is a lack of commitment.

 

[Scooch]

Would you rather go 6-6 and cash $40 mil ACC checks, or do a UConn, blow up football and kiss the Big East ring?

The crappiest $40 mil job is still better than working at McDonalds.

I’m actually not suggesting we leave the ACC. Just that we quiet quit pretending to be a competitive program. So like, stop guilting the donor base into making football donations.

 

[Dr. Bill]

Yes

They have been half assed about things for decades

When they decided it was ok to use the AD as a slush fund to fund other projects around campus instead of reinvesting into the program the way that peer programs were at the time, that shows a lack of commitment.

That shows a culture of complacency to be mediocre to average.

There is nothing wrong with being fiscally responsible.

But at the same time, in that level of business and with the dynamics in play within the industry, you cannot afford to be complacent or asleep at the wheel for decades.

Because of this, and the rapidly changing environment for college athletics, the school is now forced to spend hundreds of millions on facilities to catch up to average. By the time these upgrades are done, they are already falling behind and will need to plan on another round of massive upgrades.

And now we are scrambling to catch up in NIL, support services, etc - things that peer programs have been ahead of the curve or on top of for a good decade on us.

So now because the university must spend all of this money it feels and looks like a big commitment and investment (which don't get me wrong, it is), but it is still not enough.

They could spend another $100m on the programs and staffing and support services, and the school would probably still be on the fringe of the top 35 or so in terms of "commitment".

I get all of that about the past and where the money went or didn't go. The present day reality is:

Syracuse is difficult to recruit to especially now that we are in the ACC and compete against better funded warm weather schools.

In order to recruit players, really really good players, you need NIL/Collective money to pay them.

In order to retain the players on your own roster and keep better funded schools from stealing them, you need money to pay them.

In order to get a new coach with Power 5 Experience at building programs and a record of sustained winning, you need money, lots of money

In oder to get a highly qualified staff of assistants and coordinators, you need money( we loose coordinators to lateral positions)

In order to recruit players, you need facilities with a lot of the Bells and Whistles that young people love, this takes money.

Now, if you can solve all of these issues, and do so on the budget that Syracuse currently has, then and only then, can you realistically hope to get back on the big stage and compete with the big boys.

 

[SUDadx2]

Outstanding detail. I don’t see what year this data is from. Do you know?

I think it may be a few years old (2017-18), but I'm pretty sure the numbers or percentages today would likely be similar. I'm thinking men's soccer must have made some more money last year.

I would love to see current data. I would also like see how our football department compare to other programs in the conference with respect to coaches' salaries, salary pools for assistant coaches, budgets for support services (nutrition, strength and conditioning, etc...), recruiting budgets, and the elephants in the room which is NIL opportunities. I understand everything has improved over the years. The question is have things improved enough to make Syracuse competitive with the upper end of the conference?

Is investigative journalism alive anymore or is everything simply focused on generating click bait?

 

[alphaorange]

Pretty sure that is how it works at all schools; athletic department pays tuition for all the athletes. At state schools it used to be typical all athletes were charged out-of-state tuition at state schools as well. The Syracuse athletic department has been raided and pillaged by the university a lot - but this particular item is just standard issue pillaging that goes on at all major conference schools.

At least we’re not Vanderbilt - the way they run their athletic department and handle the accounting is laughable.

While that may be true, SU tuition is far beyond most other schools. Therefore the hit is far bigger.

 

[Chip]

I think it may be a few years old (2017-18), but I'm pretty sure the numbers or percentages today would likely be similar. I'm thinking men's soccer must have made some more money last year.

I would love to see current data. I would also like see how our football department compare to other programs in the conference with respect to coaches' salaries, salary pools for assistant coaches, budgets for support services (nutrition, strength and conditioning, etc...), recruiting budgets, and the elephants in the room which is NIL opportunities. I understand everything has improved over the years. The question is have things improved enough to make Syracuse competitive with the upper end of the conference?

Is investigative journalism alive anymore or is everything simply focused on generating click bait?

I think it's generally dead in favor of click bait, especially at places like syracuse.com I would imagine.

SU also enjoys its private school privilege with this stuff, so unless the AD really wanted to frame the struggles, I think it would be hard to get an off the record source that cares enough to risk their job.

If most were to guess, I think it would be that we can't compete with the top end of the conference. But this conference has a pretty big middle to bottom, and shouldn't be any reason we can't compete with them.

So as hard as painful as the past 3 games have been, there really is the chance to show we're still as good as the peer programs in the final 4 games. I just personally feel (like most) that this particular team is lost right now and it seems unlikely that we're going to find ourselves in time. Friday night will be telling.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Tuition is a made up cost for athletes. Room and board have a cost. Classes happen whether we have a FB team or not. It doesn’t cost the school actual money.