“I don’t care about the record…” - Jim Boeheim

[MikeSU02]

I’m sure you’re just as upset then at all the posts accusing him of not caring about winning because he got to coach his kids.

Here's my take on that: both parties can have valid points on that.

For those that are more likely to be in his camp, it was a clunky answer, which is whatever - who cares? And, anyone that has ever had a kid do anything, can understand that his family, especially his kids, will always come first and this gave him a lot of joy. His life's passion passed down to his kids and he got to coach them. I would hope everyone can understand that.

For the other side of the coin: the issue isn't that he is happy coaching his kids, is that the results, measured against his previous success, was compromised due to blinders on as he focused on his roster construction that featured his sons. I fully believe that JB expected to win with this and previous rosters, but definitely this one. But I think you can see that he may not have had the full vision needed as CEO of the program because he had an implicit bias towards Buddy and Jimmy this year which compromised a truly objective strategy in the building of this roster.

So, does he care about winning? Yes, of course. You don't win 1,100 games not doing so. Is it likely that he may not have been truly objective in his role, not as a father, but as the leader of the program in constructing the roster, also yes.

Sometimes there doesn't have to be a villain.

To your basic point, to put a bow on it, I don't think JB, in his own head, ever wanted to explicitly feature his sons over winning games. I truly think he thought he could win with this team.

 

[Day2]

Again you are making the frustration appear like its about one losing year.

It’s not.
This HC is 77 years old. The program has gone 2 ENTIRE CLASSES of students without playing a conference game as a ranked team at the Dome.

When does that stuff factor in.

There is a portion of this fanbase which acts like loyalty is a one way street.
The loyalty has been returned.

I bet if a poll was conducted an over majority of fans would be ready for change at HC. While appreciating all the current HC has done.

Such a poll would be flawed. I would be among those who would say they’re ready for change at HC. I’m also willing to wait until the HC decides it’s time. It’s not black and white.

 

[SWC75]

And the fact that you ignore everything else to myopically focus on that one data point shows that you aren't seeing the bigger picture.

I'm aware of the whole picture. I just think that's part of the picture.

 

[SWC75]

Should SU wait until next year when he has his second? How many losing seasons in a row will cause you to finally call for him to retire?

I can’t believe we are having this discussion about a coach who will be older than most of the grandfathers of the recruits we are bringing in next year.

Will he have his second losing season next year? How to you know that. My biggest thing is people claiming to know things that nobody knows at this point.

 

[SWC75]

JB is one of my sports heroes. He's been the coach longer than I've been alive, and I don't know anything else than him being at the helm.

That doesn't mean that I always agreed 100% with everything he does, just that I revered the man for all of the joy he's indirectly brought to my life, given that SU is my main sports passion.

There was a time on this forum when there were very few detractors. JB was kicking butt, our teams were competitive nationally, etc. Sure, he might not have had the highest of highs that some coaches have, but he always avoided the lows that they experience, as well. We were good -- consistently good. And for most, that was enough.

It used to be that JB's detractors were few and far between on the forum. Sure, you had outliers like Igor -- but they were usually agenda driven [such as Moose being consistently anti-zone]. And for a long time, that's kind of how it was. Sure, people might express dissatisfaction here and there, but mostly everyone was behind JB.

I remember feeling panicked when the scandal broke in 2011, fearing that JB would be fired. And being jubilant that the team responded with a 30-1 regular season record that felt like a giant FU to ESPN, and making the final four in 2013. I loved the UVa game in 2016 -- reveling in not just the joy of winning, but loving our team / players and the coach.

But all good things eventually come to an end. And the current has begun to turn -- not because our fanbase is anti-JB or being "childish" as SWC claimed, but rather because we're tired of the results not being on par with what they once were. And this isn't "one bad year," it's rapidly approaching a decade of decline.

So when I see an ever-increasing group of posters who are being honest about the state of the program and expressing a desire for change, they aren't being "unfair" or "mean" to JB, their concerns are valid.

And now the outliers are a small group of people who refuse to acknowledge what everyone else is seeing -- that the coach has hung on for too long, and the program has suffered for it. It's almost like they're living in the past.

I'm not sure how small or large each 'group of people' are. I know that one posts a lot more than the others. Maybe we should count "likes" or post a poll? I tried one in response to JB's assertion that his critics never come to games but it got deleted.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Your framing isn't fair, IMHO.

Many people aren't saying to get rid of JB because he had one losing season. Rather, they're noting that the program's results have been eroding for several seasons now, both on the court, and in recruiting.

There is also a fear that with every passing season of said erosion, it'll be more difficult to return to our previous level of success. Personally, I think that fear is overblown.

And I'm a realist, there's zero chance JB is ousted before he's good and ready to go.

But the framing isn't fair.

Agree, that’s framing people make to support their already decided conclusion. Another frame that many would use that in the past 10 years we’ve gone to the NCAA’s 7 times and we self imposed a ban one of the years and the tournament was cancelled because of Covid another year. So we actually only missed one year in those 10 years (2 counting this year so out of 11 seasons) making the NCAA’s that were available for us to make. In those 8 years our NCAA results were: the elite 8, final 4, 2nd round, Final 4, sweet 16, first round and sweet 16. That’s all reality too.

In those 10 years, we have had 21 recruited players leave early or not play leaving early for the draft, transfer and I’m not including Dajuan Coleman, Howard Washington nor Bourama Sidibe whose careers were cut short for injuries. Recruiting each player is the result of years of investment both before they come here, assessing, coaching, development time while here etc. Some players were players who sadly didn’t ultimately fit at SU and admittedly were misses, others were victims of probation. Many others left early for the draft, well above their initial recruitment potential prediction.Losing this many players has a long term impact on a coach’s roster plans unless you anticipate it like a Duke, Kentucky with ‘one and dones‘ who have made conscious decisions to use.

Players who left early from 2012-2013 to the present: Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, Carter-Williams, Jerami Grant, Ennis, McCollough, Kaleb Joseph, Malachi Richardson, Tyler Lydon, Matt Moyer, Taurean Thompson, Elijah Hughes, Geno Thorpe, Oshae Brissett, Howard Washington, Jalen Carey, Robert Braswell, Tyus Battle, Brycen Goodine, Quincy Guerrier, Allen Griffin, Kadary Richmond.

Very difficult for roster management and I think JB still believes in his zone, properly played, but realizes now that players who come here are in a hurry to showcase themselves, not earning playing time in practice, his policy, but playing in games to enter the draft as quickly as possible.(or transfer to a destination they are being told they would get more playing time to showcase) His zone needs athletes too. The NBA has changed, drafting on potential and as one evaluator said, the NBA’s mind set for teams is to draft kids as early as possible at lower costs and if 1 out of 10 players are valuable enough to get a second contract, the policy is working. Players are motivated to make the NBA and get some money, not to be more developed to help insure they stay and the NBA agrees. JB’s zone’s nuances and rotations take time to learn - when given time to develop he’s more successful than not with his players even with the difficulty with players leaving early. If SU makes the NCAA tournament, he’s proven he can scheme with anyone to be successful. His talk about changing from all zone is telling about the more limited time he realizes he has to teach it to players and fully develop new recruits/transfers for the future. He definitely wants to leave the program in good shape. 90 to 95% or more of D1 programs would love to be in our situation even the past decade.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Will he have his second losing season next year? How to you know that. My biggest thing is people claiming to know things that nobody knows at this point.

It’s been trending this way for 8 years. What makes you think he won’t?

 

[djcon57]

The NBA has changed, drafting on potential and as one evaluator said, the NBA’s mind set for teams is to draft kids as early as possible at lower costs and if 1 out of 10 players are valuable enough to get a second contract, the policy is working. Players are motivated to make the NBA and get some money, not to be more developed to help insure they stay and the NBA agrees.

Dwight Howard was picked over Emeka Okafor almost 18 years ago.

The change isn't new. If JB hasnt changed by now, this is on him

 

[SWC75]

It’s been trending this way for 8 years. What makes you think he won’t?

We just had our first losing record in those 8 years and lost 7 games by 5 points or less or in overtime. We could have 6 good players coming back and have a top 25 class which we my shortly add to coming in. Why would I conclude that we're sure to have a losing record next year? Why would you?

 

[Sherman20]

But to your last point, the season would have still been well below what our standards should be.

Agree completely.

 

[Scooch]

Agree, that’s framing people make to support their already decided conclusion. Another frame that many would use that in the past 10 years we’ve gone to the NCAA’s 7 times and we self imposed a ban one of the years and the tournament was cancelled because of Covid another year. So we actually only missed one year in those 10 years (2 counting this year so out of 11 seasons) making the NCAA’s that were available for us to make. In those 8 years our NCAA results were: the elite 8, final 4, 2nd round, Final 4, sweet 16, first round and sweet 16. That’s all reality too.

In those 10 years, we have had 21 recruited players leave early or not play leaving early for the draft, transfer and I’m not including Dajuan Coleman, Howard Washington nor Bourama Sidibe whose careers were cut short for injuries. Recruiting each player is the result of years of investment both before they come here, assessing, coaching, development time while here etc. Some players were players who sadly didn’t ultimately fit at SU and admittedly were misses, others were victims of probation. Many others left early for the draft, well above their initial recruitment potential prediction.Losing this many players has a long term impact on a coach’s roster plans unless you anticipate it like a Duke, Kentucky with ‘one and dones‘ who have made conscious decisions to use.

Players who left early from 2012-2013 to the present: Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, Carter-Williams, Jerami Grant, Ennis, McCollough, Kaleb Joseph, Malachi Richardson, Tyler Lydon, Matt Moyer, Taurean Thompson, Elijah Hughes, Geno Thorpe, Oshae Brissett, Howard Washington, Jalen Carey, Robert Braswell, Tyus Battle, Brycen Goodine, Quincy Guerrier, Allen Griffin, Kadary Richmond.

Very difficult for roster management and I think JB still believes in his zone, properly played, but realizes now that players who come here are in a hurry to showcase themselves, not earning playing time in practice, his policy, but playing in games to enter the draft as quickly as possible.(or transfer to a destination they are being told they would get more playing time to showcase) His zone needs athletes too. The NBA has changed, drafting on potential and as one evaluator said, the NBA’s mind set for teams is to draft kids as early as possible at lower costs and if 1 out of 10 players are valuable enough to get a second contract, the policy is working. Players are motivated to make the NBA and get some money, not to be more developed to help insure they stay and the NBA agrees. JB’s zone’s nuances and rotations take time to learn - when given time to develop he’s more successful than not with his players even with the difficulty with players leaving early. If SU makes the NCAA tournament, he’s proven he can scheme with anyone to be successful. His talk about changing from all zone is telling about the more limited time he realizes he has to teach it to players and fully develop new recruits/transfers for the future. He definitely wants to leave the program in good shape. 90 to 95% or more of D1 programs would love to be in our situation the past decade.

Good post.

My counter is that I may not evaluate things on a 10 year timeframe the way you did. No one should dispute that 2009-2014 was a golden era of SU hoops But 2014 was 8 years ago.

And I may argue that making the NCAA tournament, while something we aspire to, has not been the be-all, end-all of SU hoops. A high bar that JB himself set over the course of 42 years.

We've had double-digit losses for 8 years running. We had 8 between 1992 and 2013 total prior to that.

Last time we were a sub-8 tourney seed was 2014. Prior to that there was only 1 season in JB's history where we weren't a sub-8 seed.

Lots of people have covered the top 25 ranking drought.

Look, JB's an all-time coach. I've always said that without him there's no reason why SU isn't Seton Hall or BC. Anyone who disparages his accomplishments is a raging idiot.

ALL I'm trying to convey is that most people who are down on the current state of the program aren't in that mindset because of this season alone.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Lol, there isn't a program in the country with eyes on top-25 seasons and haven't in eight seasons where the coach hasn't been replaced during that time frame. Indiana? They're on their third head coach. UCLA is on their 2nd*. Louisville is a dumpster fire and they're on their 4th or soon to be 5th coach. Oklahoma? On their 2nd head coach. WVU? They were a 3 seed last year. Maybe Notre Dame? I'm not sure many want to compare SU to ND. But Brey has won a conference championship. Florida?

There isn't a coach at a P5 basketball school with JAB's last 8 regular seasons who hasn't been fired or is at least on the hot seat.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Lol, there isn't a program in the country with eyes on top-25 seasons and haven't in eight seasons where the coach hasn't been replaced during that time frame. Indiana? They're on their third head coach. UCLA is on their 2nd*. Louisville is a dumpster fire and they're on their 4th or soon to be 5th coach. Oklahoma? On their 2nd head coach. WVU? They were a 3 seed last year. Maybe Notre Dame? I'm not sure many want to compare SU to ND. But Brey has won a conference championship. Florida?

There isn't a coach at a P5 basketball school with JAB's last 8 regular seasons who hasn't been fired or is at least on the hot seat.

I think Brey may have been let go had he had a bad year this year, but they did a good job of taking care of a down ACC and did beat Kentucky after having losing seasons 2 out of the last 3 years.

Before 2018 Brey had been to 2 elite 8's, won 32 games, and won the ACC tournament in 2015. He's had significant more conference success than we have since we joined. He's accomplished 11, 12, 14, 15 win seasons since they've joined been in the ACC.

 

[gmoney44]

JB is one of my sports heroes. He's been the coach longer than I've been alive, and I don't know anything else than him being at the helm.

That doesn't mean that I always agreed 100% with everything he does, just that I revered the man for all of the joy he's indirectly brought to my life, given that SU is my main sports passion.

There was a time on this forum when there were very few detractors. JB was kicking butt, our teams were competitive nationally, etc. Sure, he might not have had the highest of highs that some coaches have, but he always avoided the lows that they experience, as well. We were good -- consistently good. And for most, that was enough.

It used to be that JB's detractors were few and far between on the forum. Sure, you had outliers like Igor -- but they were usually agenda driven [such as Moose being consistently anti-zone]. And for a long time, that's kind of how it was. Sure, people might express dissatisfaction here and there, but mostly everyone was behind JB.

I remember feeling panicked when the scandal broke in 2011, fearing that JB would be fired. And being jubilant that the team responded with a 30-1 regular season record that felt like a giant FU to ESPN, and making the final four in 2013. I loved the UVa game in 2016 -- reveling in not just the joy of winning, but loving our team / players and the coach.

But all good things eventually come to an end. And the current has begun to turn -- not because our fanbase is anti-JB or being "childish" as SWC claimed, but rather because we're tired of the results not being on par with what they once were. And this isn't "one bad year," it's rapidly approaching a decade of decline.

So when I see an ever-increasing group of posters who are being honest about the state of the program and expressing a desire for change, they aren't being "unfair" or "mean" to JB, their concerns are valid.

And now the outliers are a small group of people who refuse to acknowledge what everyone else is seeing -- that the coach has hung on for too long, and the program has suffered for it. It's almost like they're living in the past.

Awesome summary.

there’s a reason every Fortune 500 company wants to know it you have any family working there. That’s because it effects your decision making and that has been proven the last four years and especially this year.

 

[Red Holzman]

We just had our first losing record in those 8 years and lost 7 games by 5 points or less or in overtime. We could have 8 good players coming back and have a top 25 class which we my shortly add to coming in. Why would I conclude that we're sure to have a losing record next year? Why would you?

Took a look at the cited 7 games considered as close losses:

Close loss #1: 75-79 to Georgetown:
SU led by 10 at the half (44-34). SU was 8/26 on 3’s, and gave up 45 points in 2nd half to a Hoya team that’s now 6-24 and 0-19 in the Big East.

Close loss #2: 69-74 to Virginia:
Tied at the half, Virginia went on a 16-5 run for a 61-52 lead with 6:58 remaining. SU was 10/29 on 3’s.

Close loss #3: 87-88 to Miami:
Miami down 14 at the half, then went on 20-4 run in just over 5” to take the lead, 50-48.
Syracuse hit a school-record 17 3-pointers, but gave up 88 points, including 58 points in the 2nd half.

Close loss #4: 74-77 in OT to Wake Forest:
With SU up by 2, Wake Forest forced a turnover then sent the game to OT with a dunk in the final seconds. SU was 8-29 on 3’s, and Wake 11-37. Swider, Girard, Jimmy, Buddy all played >40”.

Close loss #5: 71-76 to Florida State
SU up 1 at the half. SU called time out with 30sec left, trailing 72-71. Jimmy’s shot missed with 9sec left. Fl State then had a breakaway dunk. An SU turnover and foul followed, then Fl State hit 2 free throws for the W. Fl State 12-20 on 3’s and SU 7-17.

Close loss #6: 79-88 to UNC in OT
SU led 71-70 with 1:13 left, and Following a defensive stop, Syracuse ran the clock under 15sec. SU turnover on inbounds pass allowed UNC to hit a 3 for a 73-71 lead with 8sec left. Girard forced OT with baseline jumper. NC scored first 8 points in OT, and 15 total OT points to easily pull away.

Close loss #7: 72-75 to Miami
SU up 37-26 at the half. Miami had a 15-2 run over the final 2:20 of regulation, including the last 10 points. SU gave up 49 points in the 2nd half. Miami was 3-18 from 3.

Deeper dive:
(3) wins by total of 6 points (Fl State, Indiana, Ga Tech)
(10) losses by 10 points or more (COLGATE, VCU, Auburn, Nova, Duke 2X, L'ville, VTech, ND, UNC)

The cited “7 close losses” were generally not “great games” by SU that they fought neck-and-neck to the wire and unfortunately lost. Also, SU’s 9-11 ACC record was vs arguably the weakest ACC conference in history. Finally, a perspective that SU will improved next season should also take into account improvement by their opponents when projecting a win total.

Debatable that SU has another losing record next season, but also debatable to cite the 7 games above as evidence of a greater team than this season’s record indicates.

 

[Sherman20]

I think we all might under estimate how dominating Jessie might be next year. If defenses have to focus on him it opens up a lot for players like Joe and Cole. I expect an improvement from Benny, Frank and Symir. If a couple of freshmen can be positive contributors, next years team could end up being one of those JB teams that aren’t expected to do much that turns out to be pretty good.

That roster just isn’t good enough to get us back to where we need to be. Which is why we need to get an impact transfer or two out of the portal. But Boeheim will resist it, even though he’s been mostly bad at roster construction for 8 years running now and can’t recognize his mistakes and failures at player retention and recruiting. JW needs to put the screws to JB that he expects him to use the portal to its fullest advantage and to field the best roster he can. If he refuses, it’s time for him to step aside.

 

[Col. Bleep]

If Jim Boeheim's comment is taken literally everyone who paid for a ticket should demand money back. Why would anyone pay to see a team whose coach doesn't care about having a losing record and therefore doesn't care about winning?

 

[Scooch]

I’m kinda at a loss about the “close loss” handwaving. I get looking at close losses in football, but in hoops? Doesn’t a pretty high percentage of basketball games come down to a 7-8 point or less margin, particularly between major conference teams?

 

[Day2]

I’m kinda at a loss about the “close loss” handwaving. I get looking at close losses in football, but in hoops? Doesn’t a pretty high percentage of basketball games come down to a 7-8 point or less margin, particularly between major conference teams?

Ceiling vs. floor. We were a lot closer to our floor this year.

 

[syrBossHogg]

I’m kinda at a loss about the “close loss” handwaving. I get looking at close losses in football, but in hoops? Doesn’t a pretty high percentage of basketball games come down to a 7-8 point or less margin, particularly between major conference teams?

I think there's also a point where if you lose a ton of close games, it's more on coaching/execution rather than luck

 

[Gotothehole]

Syracuse is 154-110 since the start of the 2014-15 season with zero ACC titles, zero ACC tourney titles. At some point someone at Syracuse has to tell Jim Boeheim it's time to go. You don't have to call it a firing, parting of ways, just retire. He had a great run but it's time.

 

[SWC75]

Took a look at the cited 7 games considered as close losses:

Close loss #1: 75-79 to Georgetown:
SU led by 10 at the half (44-34). SU was 8/26 on 3’s, and gave up 45 points in 2nd half to a Hoya team that’s now 6-24 and 0-19 in the Big East.

Close loss #2: 69-74 to Virginia:
Tied at the half, Virginia went on a 16-5 run for a 61-52 lead with 6:58 remaining. SU was 10/29 on 3’s.

Close loss #3: 87-88 to Miami:
Miami down 14 at the half, then went on 20-4 run in just over 5” to take the lead, 50-48.
Syracuse hit a school-record 17 3-pointers, but gave up 88 points, including 58 points in the 2nd half.

Close loss #4: 74-77 in OT to Wake Forest:
With SU up by 2, Wake Forest forced a turnover then sent the game to OT with a dunk in the final seconds. SU was 8-29 on 3’s, and Wake 11-37. Swider, Girard, Jimmy, Buddy all played >40”.

Close loss #5: 71-76 to Florida State
SU up 1 at the half. SU called time out with 30sec left, trailing 72-71. Jimmy’s shot missed with 9sec left. Fl State then had a breakaway dunk. An SU turnover and foul followed, then Fl State hit 2 free throws for the W. Fl State 12-20 on 3’s and SU 7-17.

Close loss #6: 79-88 to UNC in OT
SU led 71-70 with 1:13 left, and Following a defensive stop, Syracuse ran the clock under 15sec. SU turnover on inbounds pass allowed UNC to hit a 3 for a 73-71 lead with 8sec left. Girard forced OT with baseline jumper. NC scored first 8 points in OT, and 15 total OT points to easily pull away.

Close loss #7: 72-75 to Miami
SU up 37-26 at the half. Miami had a 15-2 run over the final 2:20 of regulation, including the last 10 points. SU gave up 49 points in the 2nd half. Miami was 3-18 from 3.

Deeper dive:
(3) wins by total of 6 points (Fl State, Indiana, Ga Tech)
(10) losses by 10 points or more (COLGATE, VCU, Auburn, Nova, Duke 2X, L'ville, VTech, ND, UNC)

The cited “7 close losses” were generally not “great games” by SU that they fought neck-and-neck to the wire and unfortunately lost. Also, SU’s 9-11 ACC record was vs arguably the weakest ACC conference in history. Finally, a perspective that SU will improved next season should also take into account improvement by their opponents when projecting a win total.

Debatable that SU has another losing record next season, but also debatable to cite the 7 games above as evidence of a greater team than this season’s record indicates.

Still if we'd won 3-4 of those games we might still have a shot at the NCAAs and would have clinched another winning record. I think the conversation would have a slightly different tone. Someone posted that we don't have the personnel to compete with the teams we are playing. We actually competed with them fairly well. We just didn't make the plays at the end to win those games.

 

[brian williams]

Ceiling vs. floor. We were a lot closer to our floor this year.

As long as we don’t hit the basement next year

 

[RF2044]

Still if we'd won 3-4 of those games we might still have a shot at the NCAAs and would have clinched another winning record. I think the conversation would have a slightly different tone. Some posted that we don't have the personnel to competed with the teams we are playing. We actually competed with them fairly well. We just didn't make the plays at the end to win those games.

But we didn't win those games. And in a year when the ACC conference featured the most watered down field since we've joined the league, we posted a losing record. Think about that for a moment.

What people are actually saying is that we don't have the personnel to compete with good teams anymore. We played a few this year -- Auburn, Duke -- and got embarrassed. Heck, we got embarrassed by some lousy teams as well, such as Colgate and Georgetown, both of whom went on to have awful seasons after handling us.

We're reasonably competitive with the mediocre teams that the majority of our league is comprised of -- that's a very different thing than saying that we are competitive against good teams. But in a down ACC year, we didn't get the job done. Comparatively, a squad like ND did.

Therein lies the difference.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

But we didn't win those games. And in a year when the ACC conference featured the most watered down field since we've joined the league, we posted a losing record. Think about that for a moment.

What people are actually saying is that we don't have the personnel to compete with good teams anymore. We played a few this year -- Auburn, Duke -- and got embarrassed. Heck, we got embarrassed by some lousy teams as well, such as Colgate and Georgetown, both of whom went on to have awful seasons after handling us.

We're reasonably competitive with the mediocre teams that the majority of our league is comprised of -- that's a very different thing than saying that we are competitive against good teams. But in a down ACC year, we didn't get the job done. Comparatively, a squad like ND did.

Therein lies the difference.

Colgate is 22-11, on a 14 game winning streak and are in the Patriot League championship against Navy.

Your definition of "awful" is...interesting.