“I don’t care about the record…” - Jim Boeheim

[CardiacCuse]

To play devils advocate. With the lack of athleticism on this team, how many other coaches might not have won ten games with this talent?

some. maybe tom crean? patrick ewing? juwan howard? nc state coach? pennie hardaway? hurley?

(doubt coach K gets close to 10 wins with this roster fwiw)

 

[Day2]

Did he chose heads when he should have chosen tails?

Very, very few games come down to an in game coaching decision. They come down to players making or missing shots, rebounding or giving up rebounds, taking care of the ball or turning it over, committing bad fouls etc.

No question. Do you think JB put us in position to win in all of those games, though? Wake Forest is the most glaring example. Not subbing in the second half against Georgetown. Not playing Torrence the moment Miami started pressing the first time we played them. The inbounds “plays” the last two games.

JB made mistakes this year he doesn’t usually make.

 

[Day2]

How many programs let their head coach rack up two major probations and let him continue on coaching?

This stuff works both ways. For all the "JB is the program" talk, which I'm fine with by the way, there is also the fact that a lot of schools would have pushed him out after the second probation.

We didn’t push him out, though. And that’s not the reason most of you want him gone.

 

[Cusefan0307]

On a traditional SU basketball team (one that routinely finished in the upper half of its league), none of our current starters would get on the floor except maybe as an 8th or 9th man getting an occasional cameo appearance. That may be an exaggeration but you can't exaggerate the talent drop off that has taken place from the program's halcyon days to today.

This isn’t true either though. We started Louie McCroskey on 4 and 5 seed tournament teams. Josh Wright got big minutes on tourney teams and so did Billy Celuck. Buddy and Edwards make those teams national title contenders.

 

[kcsu]

I believe that JB is going to coach his arse off next season for a few reasons.
1: If we land Mintz and if Cole returns which i do believe will happen he is going to have a talented JB type team. Big and long with an athletic bent to it.
2: JB hates to lose and he won't want two losers in a row.
3: His kids are gone and that dynamic which was a huge negative for him as a coach is in the past
4: Its his last year and if SU has a good season it pretty much ensures JW keeps it in the family.

 

[Scooch]

We didn’t push him out, though. And that’s not the reason most of you want him gone.

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I was in favor of a “gentle” exit post 2015-16. And my point is that it’s not like SU hasn’t shown literally unprecedented loyalty to JB after his second probation. It’s a two way street.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I believe that JB is going to coach his arse off next season for a few reasons.
1: If we land Mintz and if Cole returns which i do believe will happen he is going to have a talented JB type team. Big and long with an athletic bent to it.
2: JB hates to lose and he won't want two losers in a row.
3: His kids are gone and that dynamic which was a huge negative for him as a coach is in the past
4: Its his last year and if SU has a good season it pretty much ensures JW keeps it in the family.

JB was playing Fair, Cooney, Gbinije, Battle and Howard 40 mpg before Buddy stepped on campus. That ain’t changing. My guess for those guys next year is Swider if he comes back and Girard.

 

[Day2]

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I was in favor of a “gentle” exit post 2015-16. And my point is that it’s not like SU hasn’t shown literally unprecedented loyalty to JB after his second probation. It’s a two way street.

Are you suggesting JB hasn’t shown unprecedented loyalty to SU?

 

[RF2044]

I believe that JB is going to coach his arse off next season for a few reasons.
1: If we land Mintz and if Cole returns which i do believe will happen he is going to have a talented JB type team. Big and long with an athletic bent to it.
2: JB hates to lose and he won't want two losers in a row.
3: His kids are gone and that dynamic which was a huge negative for him as a coach is in the past
4: Its his last year and if SU has a good season it pretty much ensures JW keeps it in the family.

What's most amazing about how doggedly you're sticking to prediction #4 is that you're not picking up on any of the clues to the contrary, even as they saw off the limb you've climbed out on.

Boeheim himself indicated that he will only have limited input on the selection of his replacement. That speaks volumes.

The irrational outbursts, the lousy season, things slowly getting worse over time, the slippage on the standard level of performance -- all predictable and commonplace when coaching icons hang on for too long.

It's going to make JW's decision to go in a different direction easy when the time comes. Continuity with the status quo would be a horrible strategic move to make.

 

[bpo57]

This isn’t true either though. We started Louie McCroskey on 4 and 5 seed tournament teams. Josh Wright got big minutes on tourney teams and so did Billy Celuck. Buddy and Edwards make those teams national title contenders.

You can always find exceptions. JB's been coaching for nearly 50 years. Notice I used the words "traditional" and "upper half of the league". Those two would not see the light of day on a traditional SU squad although given the fact that we have not had a lot of great big men for a while now I'll concede that Edwards might have gotten some run along the way.

The larger point, which I don't see how you can argue, is that there has been a severe drop off in talent over the last five years. We used to play most top 40 teams knowing we had equal or better talent. Not any more.

 

[bpo57]

JB was playing Fair, Cooney, Gbinije, Battle and Howard 40 mpg before Buddy stepped on campus. That ain’t changing. My guess for those guys next year is Swider if he comes back and Girard.

A few of those guys deserved to play 40 min although it's a bad idea imo. Not Buddy.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Swider needs a point guard and a another wing player that can attack the basket to be really effective. With a couple of penetrators, along with Jessie demanding attention, he will be solid. We missed Jessie’s passing the past six games too. He was getting very good at finding open teammates.

 

[SUFan44]

I believe that JB is going to coach his arse off next season for a few reasons.
1: If we land Mintz and if Cole returns which i do believe will happen he is going to have a talented JB type team. Big and long with an athletic bent to it.
2: JB hates to lose and he won't want two losers in a row.
3: His kids are gone and that dynamic which was a huge negative for him as a coach is in the past
4: Its his last year and if SU has a good season it pretty much ensures JW keeps it in the family.

Here's where I stand on these four bullets:

1. Are we really sure about this? I don't think it's a typical JB talented team. I think it's another bubble team. Unless Mintz is immediately Gerry level, and Benny makes a quantum leap. Those are two huge if's.

2. Do you really think JB will coach EXTRA HARD next year because we lost this year? What does that even mean? That he didn't coach extra hard this year? Everyone hates to lose. I don't see him doing much different from this season - because a leopard can't change its spots, especially a 77-year old leopard.

I'll also add - everybody hates to lose. But JB, IMO, did this to himself by taking a break on the recruiting trail and not putting in the extra effort or not wanting to put up with certain qualities of kids that we needed to be successful at the highest level.

3. This is true, they'll be gone. But why was it a negative? He handmade this team so that his two sons had no resistance to playing time. Even if you think he wanted QG to stay, QG decided to leave based on - wait for it - his experience at SU and wanting something different. Despite playing 30+ mpg. Something doesn't add up.

4. Whether they keep it in the family or not, I hope the AD decides to open a search and allow the best candidate to win. If it's AA, great. If it's not, great. But to simply hand it to someone because that's what JB wants is ridiculous.

 

[bpo57]

What's most amazing about how doggedly you're sticking to prediction #4 is that you're not picking up on any of the clues to the contrary, even as they saw off the limb you've climbed out on.

Boeheim himself indicated that he will only have limited input on the selection of his replacement. That speaks volumes.

The irrational outbursts, the lousy season, things slowly getting worse over time, the slippage on the standard level of performance -- all predictable and commonplace when coaching icons hang on for too long.

It's going to make JW's decision to go in a different direction easy when the time comes. Continuity with the status quo would be a horrible strategic move to make.

Nailed it. It will be very disheartening if that logic doesn't hold.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You can always find exceptions. JB's been coaching for nearly 50 years. Notice I used the words "traditional" and "upper half of the league". Those two would not see the light of day on a traditional SU squad although given the fact that we have not had a lot of great big men for a while now I'll concede that Edwards might have gotten some run along the way.

The larger point, which I don't see how you can argue, is that there has been a severe drop off in talent over the last five years. We used to play most top 40 teams knowing we had equal or better talent. Not any more.

Yes there's been a drop off in talent and JB should retire. I've agreed with that all along. These days we have 2 or 3 guys who should be starters and we used to have 6 or 7.

My main point is I don't expect any of this to change next year.

 

[bpo57]

Yes there's been a drop off in talent and JB should retire. I've agreed with that all along. These days we have 2 or 3 guys who should be starters and we used to have 6 or 7.

My main point is I don't expect any of this to change next year.

I don't either.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Here's where I stand on these four bullets:

1. Are we really sure about this? I don't think it's a typical JB talented team. I think it's another bubble team. Unless Mintz is immediately Gerry level, and Benny makes a quantum leap. Those are two huge if's.

2. Do you really think JB will coach EXTRA HARD next year because we lost this year? What does that even mean? That he didn't coach extra hard this year? Everyone hates to lose. I don't see him doing much different from this season - because a leopard can't change its spots, especially a 77-year old leopard.

I'll also add - everybody hates to lose. But JB, IMO, did this to himself by taking a break on the recruiting trail and not putting in the extra effort or not wanting to put up with certain qualities of kids that we needed to be successful at the highest level.

3. This is true, they'll be gone. But why was it a negative? He handmade this team so that his two sons had no resistance to playing time. Even if you think he wanted QG to stay, QG decided to leave based on - wait for it - his experience at SU and wanting something different. Despite playing 30+ mpg. Something doesn't add up.

4. Whether they keep it in the family or not, I hope the AD decides to open a search and allow the best candidate to win. If it's AA, great. If it's not, great. But to simply hand it to someone because that's what JB wants is ridiculous.

I think we all might under estimate how dominating Jessie might be next year. If defenses have to focus on him it opens up a lot for players like Joe and Cole. I expect an improvement from Benny, Frank and Symir. If a couple of freshmen can be positive contributors, next years team could end up being one of those JB teams that aren’t expected to do much that turns out to be pretty good.

 

[RF2044]

Nailed it. It will be very disheartening if that logic doesn't hold.

And another thing to add: it always makes me chuckle when I see someone suggest that Red or GMac will play M2M, and make changes on both sides of the ball, as a rationalized justification for making an internal hire.

Mike Hopkins said the same thing. And while he dabbled with other styles, ultimately he plays 99.9% zone, because that's what he's familiar with. Which is why I put zero stock in anyone suggesting that these guys will make changes. They're going to go with what they know -- the same way Hop did / does.

And expecting results to improve when you fundamentally do the same things, only with a lesser version of the HOF head coach, isn't just a recipe for disaster -- it's the definition of insanity.

 

[qdawgg]

Yeah, you’re right. Replacing P was still necessary. It’s just weird to see people speak glowingly about him now, when a lot of the same people were probably screaming, “Off with his head!” twenty years ago.

Definitely true. Nostalgia probably. Doesn’t help we’ve been absolutely horrendous overall.

 

[Gotothehole]

Are you suggesting JB hasn’t shown unprecedented loyalty to SU?

If he had any loyalty at all he would step down

 

[Scooch]

Are you suggesting JB hasn’t shown unprecedented loyalty to SU?

No.

Your post I replied to was about how most programs would kill for our decline. And my point, again, was that most programs don’t have a head coach who has picked up two major probations and still kept said coach employed.

Many people here suggested that our “decline” was triggered by probation. A probation that JB is fortunate didn’t cause his termination.

 

[OttoMets]

No one should ever follow the lead of Brent Axe.

I've disagreed with virtually everything you've said in the thread, but then you go and write a sentence like this...

 

[OttoMets]

It has nothing to do with his kids for me. Buddy is a very good college player and Jimmy can contribute on a good team. I just wish he was playing 20mpg.

...

Not to nitpick, but I just can't get past this theme. Forget about good teams, what bad team is Jimmy getting minutes for? I can't think of a Syracuse regular in my lifetime who he'd get minutes over. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I'm skeptical.

 

[BillSU]

Jim Boeheim's 9 best teams at Syracuse, ranked

Jim Boeheim has coached 46 teams at Syracuse. We ranked them all by using a formula.

www.ncaa.com

Maybe this will add a positive note to this thread if you care to look at this authors take on our 9 best teams all time.

Want great players or have memories of some of the best, it's here.

 

[RF2044]

Not to nitpick, but I just can't get past this theme. Forget about good teams, what bad team is Jimmy getting minutes for? I can't think of a Syracuse regular in my lifetime who he'd get minutes over. Maybe I'm missing someone, but I'm skeptical.

I get what you're saying, but I'll chime in.

I think we would have killed for a guy like this coming off the bench on some of those Tyus Battle teams, to provide depth and complimentary scoring.