2018 Baseball Hall of Fame

[Knicks411]

I think next year it's Mo, Edgar, and Moose

I think Moose might need 2 more years. He still has a fair amount of ground to make up. That said, with 4 guys going in, there are a lot of votes available. I bet he's close either way next year, and worse case makes it in 2020.

 

[bpo57]

From a purely baseball perspective, can anybody explain to me how Mussina is at 63%+ and Schilling is at 51%+?

When you look at the regular season stats, they are incredibly close. Schilling had a lower ERA, many more complete games, went deeper into games, had more Ks and fewer walks, lower WHIP while Mussina had significantly more wins but played on much better teams. Many of those Phillies teams were awful. Mussina also pitched in smaller parks and faced the DH more so he has that in his favor. You could analyze the regular season results six ways to Sunday and they're really close. But the postseason results are obviously in favor of Schilling. I believe he was 4-0 in postseason elimination games and was a huge factor behind two WS titles.

I think they both eventually deserve inclusion (though each is a very close call), just don't get why Mussina would be that far ahead of Schilling. Seems to me some voters are holding Schilling's personal views against him. That ain't right.

 

[Knicks411]

From a purely baseball perspective, can anybody explain to me how Mussina is at 63%+ and Schilling is at 51%+?

When you look at the regular season stats, they are incredibly close. Schilling had a lower ERA, many more complete games, went deeper into games, had more Ks and fewer walks, lower WHIP while Mussina had significantly more wins but played on much better teams. Many of those Phillies teams were awful. Mussina also pitched in smaller parks and faced the DH more so he has that in his favor. You could analyze the regular season results six ways to Sunday and they're really close. But the postseason results are obviously in favor of Schilling. I believe he was 4-0 in postseason elimination games and was a huge factor behind two WS titles.

I think they both eventually deserve inclusion (though each is a very close call), just don't get why Mussina would be that far ahead of Schilling. Seems to me some voters are holding Schilling's personal views against him. That ain't right.

I think it's obvious Schilling is having some of that held against him.

That said, Mussina had a longer career than Schilling. Moose started exactly 100 more games than Schilling, he threw about 300 more innings. Not huge, but it's something. I think both guys will eventually make it. if I could vote for only one? That's really tough. Schilling has the peak advantage and the great WS moments. Moose was consistently really good for a looong time

 

[Alsacs]

Schilling and Mussina both are HOFers.
Politics is why Schilling’s numbers are lower.
Pedro Gomez admitted he voted for Mussina and not Schilling even though he thinks Schilling is a HOFer because he doesn’t like his politics and should be rewarded.

 

[Alsacs]

I think it's obvious Schilling is having some of that held against him.

That said, Mussina had a longer career than Schilling. Moose started exactly 100 more games than Schilling, he threw about 300 more innings. Not huge, but it's something. I think both guys will eventually make it. if I could vote for only one? That's really tough. Schilling has the peak advantage and the great WS moments. Moose was consistently really good for a looong time

Who had a better career in your opinion?
I think Mussina was more consistent but Schilling was better at their bests.

 

[Knicks411]

Who had a better career in your opinion?
I think Mussina was more consistent but Schilling was better at their bests.

It's honestly really close. I agree, Schilling had a better peak, he was nearly the best pitcher in baseball at his best. Mussina was probably never quite that good.

But if you're asking me if I could draft one guy at the beginning of their career and have their career as it played out, I think I'd take Moose. he was just so consistent for so long. Schilling was hurt, not great for a few years in the middle. Moose was basically good for 30 starts a year for 15 years. Schilling won double digit games 10 times, Moose did it 17 times. Guy was just there every year.

Schilling is the answer to a trivia question I just learned; only guy to win a WS game for 3 different teams

 

[Shawn91111]

Moose was better. He has a 83.0 WAR for his career that ranks 19th all-time among pitchers in the Hall of Fame, and 58th all time among all 18,646 pitchers and hitters. It’s better than Bob Gibson (81.9), Curt Schilling (80.7) and Bob Feller (65.2). And he did it all in the AL East and in the Steroid Era.

Then again I just like Moose better

 

[bpo57]

I think it's obvious Schilling is having some of that held against him.

That said, Mussina had a longer career than Schilling. Moose started exactly 100 more games than Schilling, he threw about 300 more innings. Not huge, but it's something. I think both guys will eventually make it. if I could vote for only one? That's really tough. Schilling has the peak advantage and the great WS moments. Moose was consistently really good for a looong time

I think that's a fair read. Tim Kurkjian was on the radio yesterday. He's had voters tell him that they weren't voting for this or that guy because they didn't like him or felt a particular guy was difficult to deal with, etc. That's disgraceful.

 

[bpo57]

Moose was better. He has a 83.0 WAR for his career that ranks 19th all-time among pitchers in the Hall of Fame, and 58th all time among all 18,646 pitchers and hitters. It’s better than Bob Gibson (81.9), Curt Schilling (80.7) and Bob Feller (65.2). And he did it all in the AL East and in the Steroid Era.

Schilling pitched in the steroid era, too. Their WAR #s are really close and then you have the postseason to consider. Integral part of two WS titles for teams that had never won a title. WS MVP. That has to count for something.

 

[Shawn91111]

Schilling pitched in the steroid era, too. Their WAR #s are really close and then you have the postseason to consider. Integral part of two WS titles for teams that had never won a title. WS MVP. That has to count for something.

Outside of Game 1 of the 01 WS, Moose was stellar in the WS, not his fault Mo blew the 01 series. Also Moose pitching in the AL East has to count for something as well

 

[br801]

Outside of Game 1 of the 01 WS, Moose was stellar in the WS, not his fault Mo blew the 01 series. Also Moose pitching in the AL East has to count for something as well

And Michael Kay loathes Mike Mussina, so that's another positive in Moose's favor to me.

 

[Shawn91111]

And Michael Kay loathes Mike Mussina, so that's another positive in Moose's favor to me.

Does he? Never paid much attention to Kay. What's his deal with Mussina?

 

[br801]

Does he? Never paid much attention to Kay. What's his deal with Mussina?

I'm not sure, but he definitely has a bug up his ass about Mussina. It might date back to when Kay was a beat reporter and Mussina, an introvert, wasn't a willing interview subject.

 

[Alsacs]

Highest profile Mussina vs. Schilling start.
2001 World Series Game 1, New York Yankees at Arizona Diamondbacks, October 27, 2001 | Baseball-Reference.com
I saw Mussina’s whole career as an AL East opponent he was good I remember an almost perfect game he had at Boston in September when the Sox had Manny Ramirez, Trot Nixon and a JV lineup. He was good but I thought the guy wasn’t the best of his generation.

He deserves to get in because of consistency. Won’t say he isn’t worthy.
I just don’t see him as a shutdown ace guy.

His 1999 year was really good finishing 2nd in CY Young.
I have said I like black ink for HOF resumes. Guy was a machine of consistency and a Red Sox killer which helps his resume.

Schilling would have CY Youngs if not for the crazy numbers from Randy Johnson.

Wins are irrelevant for me as you have the numbers to show why they are low.

 

[bpo57]

Outside of Game 1 of the 01 WS, Moose was stellar in the WS, not his fault Mo blew the 01 series. Also Moose pitching in the AL East has to count for something as well

I agree with the AL East comment. That brings Mussina's ERA back in line with Schilling. Mussina was fine in the postseason. Schilling was one of the best postseason starters of the last 50 years.

 

[Alsacs]

Outside of Game 1 of the 01 WS, Moose was stellar in the WS, not his fault Mo blew the 01 series. Also Moose pitching in the AL East has to count for something as well

IMO he cost the Yankees the 05 WS with his game 5 start against the Angels.
My roommate(Yanks fan) on South Campus chucked his cell phone into building cause of Mussina’s start. He was convinced the only team that could beat those Yankees were the Angels.
Mussina didn’t have the clutch postseason numbers.
Still a HOFer though.

 

[Knicks411]

Highest profile Mussina vs. Schilling start.
2001 World Series Game 1, New York Yankees at Arizona Diamondbacks, October 27, 2001 | Baseball-Reference.com
I saw Mussina’s whole career as an AL East opponent he was good I remember an almost perfect game he had at Boston in September when the Sox had Manny Ramirez, Trot Nixon and a JV lineup. He was good but I thought the guy wasn’t the best of his generation.

He deserves to get in because of consistency. Won’t say he isn’t worthy.
I just don’t see him as a shutdown ace guy.

His 1999 year was really good finishing 2nd in CY Young.
I have said I like black ink for HOF resumes. Guy was a machine of consistency and a Red Sox killer which helps his resume.

Schilling would have CY Youngs if not for the crazy numbers from Randy Johnson.

Wins are irrelevant for me as you have the numbers to show why they are low.

Part of that is because he was hurt and inconsistent. He had a 3-4 year run in the middle of his career where he was either not that great or not available. That's not the end of the world, but I don't think you can ignore it. Might be why I take Moose over him.

I may have brought this up before, I wonder if the strike/lockout in 94 and 95 hurt Moose as much as anyone. In 94 he was 16-6, he won 16 of his 24 starts. the strike cost the last 50ish games of the year, probably cost him close to 10 starts. Does he get to 20 wins that year? 95, 144 game season, he was 19-9, with the extra 3-4 starts, does he get to 20 there? All of a sudden he's sitting with 275 wins and 3 20 win seasons; I think his case looks a little different to the average voter at that point.

Schilling does have the peak though. So i get the argument for him.

 

[Knicks411]

IMO he cost the Yankees the 05 WS with his game 5 start against the Angels.
My roommate(Yanks fan) on South Campus chucked his cell phone into building cause of Mussina’s start. He was convinced the only team that could beat those Yankees were the Angels.
Mussina didn’t have the clutch postseason numbers.
Still a HOFer though.

He didn't have great post-season numbers, but a 3.42 ERA over 23 games, not that bad. Also threw 3 shutout innings in relief in that game 7 against Boston in 03. Also had a 7 inning 15 strikeout performance against the Indians in the 97 LCS. Pretty much anyone is going to pale in a playoff comparison to Schilling though

 

[Alsacs]

Part of that is because he was hurt and inconsistent. He had a 3-4 year run in the middle of his career where he was either not that great or not available. That's not the end of the world, but I don't think you can ignore it. Might be why I take Moose over him.

I may have brought this up before, I wonder if the strike/lockout in 94 and 95 hurt Moose as much as anyone. In 94 he was 16-6, he won 16 of his 24 starts. the strike cost the last 50ish games of the year, probably cost him close to 10 starts. Does he get to 20 wins that year? 95, 144 game season, he was 19-9, with the extra 3-4 starts, does he get to 20 there? All of a sudden he's sitting with 275 wins and 3 20 win seasons; I think his case looks a little different to the average voter at that point.

Schilling does have the peak though. So i get the argument for him.

I think both are HOFers.
Mussina deserves it for how being good his whole career and not dipping.
I just see him as a A- at his best and B+ the rest of his career.
Where I see Schilling being A+ at his best and a mix of C/B the rest of his career.
Both are HOFers. I just think Schilling at his best was one of the top 3 in all of baseball while Mussina was just top 10-20 pretty much his whole career. Schilling was awful early and dipped at the end.

 

[Alsacs]

He didn't have great post-season numbers, but a 3.42 ERA over 23 games, not that bad. Also threw 3 shutout innings in relief in that game 7 against Boston in 03. Also had a 7 inning 15 strikeout performance against the Indians in the 97 LCS. Pretty m
uch anyone is going to pale in a playoff comparison to Schilling though

Not comparing to Schilling.
Schilling resume needs postseason.
Mussina’s doesn’t.

Both are HOFers.
Mussina was good I think he is the Yankee starter who makes it. I don’t see Andy Petitte getting in.

 

[Shawn91111]

IMO he cost the Yankees the 05 WS with his game 5 start against the Angels.
My roommate(Yanks fan) on South Campus chucked his cell phone into building cause of Mussina’s start. He was convinced the only team that could beat those Yankees were the Angels.
Mussina didn’t have the clutch postseason numbers.
Still a HOFer though.

Who pitched Game 7 of the 03' ALCS with 3 innings of 2 hit ball to keep the Yankees in the game? That's not clutch? Who pitched 7 shut out innings of 4 hit ball in the 01 ALDS on the brink of elimination in Game 3? That's not clutch? Who pitch 8 shut out innings of 1 hit ball in the 97 ALCS on the brink of elimination in Game 6? That's not clutch? Who pitched 6 innings of 2 run ball in the 04 ALCS, giving his bullpen a 2 run lead to get to the WS?

Come on man, not to mention he gave them Game 1 of the 05 ALDS with 6 shut out innings

 

[Alsacs]

Who pitched Game 7 of the 03' ALCS with 3 innings of 2 hit ball to keep the Yankees in the game? That's not clutch? Who pitched 7 shut out innings of 4 hit ball in the 01 ALDS on the brink of elimination in Game 3? That's not clutch? Who pitch 8 shut out innings of 1 hit ball in the 97 ALCS on the brink of elimination in Game 6? That's not clutch? Who pitched 6 innings of 2 run ball in the 04 ALCS, giving his bullpen a 2 run lead to get to the WS?

Come on man, not to mention he gave them Game 1 of the 05 ALDS with 6 shut out innings

Mussina isn’t why you won Game 7 in 2003.
It was Giambi and Grady Little being a moron.
The guy is a HOFer not fighting that. Honestly. Was just saying though a Yankees fan roommate was pissed at G5 in 2005 and thought the Yankees win the WS if they get by the Angels.

 

[Shawn91111]

Mussina isn’t why you won Game 7 in 2003.
It was Giambi and Grady Little being a moron.
The guy is a HOFer not fighting that. Honestly. Was just saying though a Yankees fan roommate was pissed at G5 in 2005 and thought the Yankees win the WS if they get by the Angels.

He's not one of the reason's they won game 7? There are multiple reasons, and he was one of them

 

[Knicks411]

Mussina isn’t why you won Game 7 in 2003.
It was Giambi and Grady Little being a moron.
The guy is a HOFer not fighting that. Honestly. Was just saying though a Yankees fan roommate was pissed at G5 in 2005 and thought the Yankees win the WS if they get by the Angels.

I haven't relaly thought about that game in a long time (I'm a met fan) but I remember Mussina being really key. Sole reason they won? Obviously not. But when he came in, they were down 4-0 in the fourth inning, he really held the fort there for a while. Pretty underrated performance.

But I do take your point.

 

[Alsacs]

He's not one of the reason's they won game 7? There are multiple reasons, and he was one of them

Cmon man of course he did well coming out of the bullpen but if Grady Little takes Pedro out after the 7th inning Mussina’s performance doesn’t matter.

It was 5-2 and then Pedro fell apart.
Mussina is a HOFer though.