2020 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

2020 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

FreakTalksAboutSU said:
I get that. I personally still am a NO on those guys but I firmly believe the current inductees should be the ultimate arbiter.
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the problem is, most of the them never saw the other league.

they dont really have a good frame of reference.

they didnt even have ESPN to see highlights.

i say just give it to the sabermetric guys, with contemporaries as sort of a guide.
 
Pete Rose bet as a manager, he should be banned from baseball.

not the HOF, for his accomplishments as a player warrant him in as an automatic HOFer.
 
Alsacs said:
The BBWAA is a joke. Bonds and Clemens are HOFers.
The keepers of the gate argument. Baseball is dying a slow death because the sport doesn't adapt to change well and it skews way to old.
Gaylord Perry cheated he is the HOF.
I am sure Piazza and Bagwell used steroids even though they never tested positive and I don't care if they did.
Hall of Fame is for the best of the best. I can see why Pete Rose isn't in if you bet on the game while active I get it.
Taking steroids shouldn't be the reason not to be in when you are Bonds and Clemens.
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but then do you put Mark McGwire in? Numbers wide I’d say yes. but before he got huge, no way. Granted that’s a bit different than Bonds and Clemens who both had the numbers before they got huge imho
 
MSOrange said:
but then do you put Mark McGwire in? Numbers wide I’d say yes. but before he got huge, no way. Granted that’s a bit different than Bonds and Clemens who both had the numbers before they got huge imho
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McGwire is a guy that HRs are the star to his case. I wouldn't put him in.
Look at his BA, OBP, and other stuff.
Bonds pre-1998 and just an average player after that till he retired is a HOFer.
Same for Clemens.

Steroids turned them for HOFers to all-time best of the best stuff.
A-Rod won't get in if the Bonds/Clemens don't and I think he is a HOFer as well.
 
KaiserUEO said:
its seems so simple to me, not sure why they couldnt agree to this at some point.
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Rose wants full reinstatement so He can get paid by the Reds.
Baseball probably would allow him into the HOF if he just wanted that and not be part of the game but Rose won’t compromise. He wants all the way in and uses his HOF to try and win public opinion.
Also he did bet on the team while He was player-manager.
People say who cares if he bet on his own team but if he bet on certain games he would manage that night’s game differently and that affects your club later in the same week.
 
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Simmons was pretty solid. But Munson over Simmons all day if you wanted a Catcher and could only take 1 Munson was going ahead of Simmons all day
 
Alsacs said:
McGwire is a guy that HRs are the star to his case. I wouldn't put him in.
Look at his BA, OBP, and other stuff.
Bonds pre-1998 and just an average player after that till he retired is a HOFer.
Same for Clemens.

Steroids turned them for HOFers to all-time best of the best stuff.
A-Rod won't get in if the Bonds/Clemens don't and I think he is a HOFer as well.
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McGuire was a slight better version of Kingman,
 
yeah. I am still getting abused for my anti-bonds talk.. but thats ok.. thats why we have a board for discussions like this..

Consider this if Bonds doesnt take the Roids where does he end up with his career. he hit 300 home runs on that 5 yr stretch 2000-2004 and 60 after that.. without them he probably continues his downward trend 42-40-37-34 avg .308 .290 .303 .262 after
49-73-46-45-45 avg .306 .328 .370 . 341. 362

before that explosion at the age of 36 be had 3 40 Hr yrs and some middle 30s and 5 of under 25..
his avg he had one great yr of .336 at the age of 27 which is normally where guys peak a couple .310ish
and 7 under .290ish..

he was a nice solid player with a solid career.
if he finishes like most players he plays 2-3 more yrs finishes with low 500 HRs and under .300 avg instead after 36 he hits 80% more HRs and raises his avg and it still finishes under .300
 
upperdeck said:
yeah. I am still getting abused for my anti-bonds talk.. but thats ok.. thats why we have a board for discussions like this..

Consider this if Bonds doesnt take the Roids where does he end up with his career. he hit 300 home runs on that 5 yr stretch 2000-2004 and 60 after that.. without them he probably continues his downward trend 42-40-37-34 avg .308 .290 .303 .262 after
49-73-46-45-45 avg .306 .328 .370 . 341. 362

before that explosion at the age of 36 be had 3 40 Hr yrs and some middle 30s and 5 of under 25..
his avg he had one great yr of .336 at the age of 27 which is normally where guys peak a couple .310ish
and 7 under .290ish..

he was a nice solid player with a solid career.
if he finishes like most players he plays 2-3 more yrs finishes with low 500 HRs and under .300 avg instead after 36 he hits 80% more HRs and raises his avg and it still finishes under .300
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Before Bonds used steroids he had 3 MVPs 1990, 1992, 1993. 8 gold gloves from 1990-1994, 1996-1998.
7 Silver sluggers 1990-1997.

He was a lock. Find a 3 time MVP non-A-Rod who isn’t in the HOF.
 
Alsacs said:
McGwire is a guy that HRs are the star to his case. I wouldn't put him in.
Look at his BA, OBP, and other stuff.
Bonds pre-1998 and just an average player after that till he retired is a HOFer.
Same for Clemens.

Steroids turned them for HOFers to all-time best of the best stuff.
A-Rod won't get in if the Bonds/Clemens don't and I think he is a HOFer as well.
Expand...
upperdeck said:
yeah. I am still getting abused for my anti-bonds talk.. but thats ok.. thats why we have a board for discussions like this..

Consider this if Bonds doesnt take the Roids where does he end up with his career. he hit 300 home runs on that 5 yr stretch 2000-2004 and 60 after that.. without them he probably continues his downward trend 42-40-37-34 avg .308 .290 .303 .262 after
49-73-46-45-45 avg .306 .328 .370 . 341. 362

before that explosion at the age of 36 be had 3 40 Hr yrs and some middle 30s and 5 of under 25..
his avg he had one great yr of .336 at the age of 27 which is normally where guys peak a couple .310ish
and 7 under .290ish..

he was a nice solid player with a solid career.
if he finishes like most players he plays 2-3 more yrs finishes with low 500 HRs and under .300 avg instead after 36 he hits 80% more HRs and raises his avg and it still finishes under .300
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#1. First off, when looking at HR totals from 1980-1993 in a historical context, you have to consider it was one of the lowest HR Era's of recent times. Other than 1987, 30 HR meant something in those years.

#2. You continue to look at AVG, while ignoring the much more relevant OBP. You are stuck two generations behind. Those are great seasons.

1575910970035.png



#3. You also fail to note how complete a player he was.
8 Gold Gloves, very good base stealer.

1575911297472.png



#3. To say he had one great year before the HR explosion is beyond ridiculous. Before the HR explosion (before age 36), he was top 5 in MVP voting, 8 TIMES !!!!

Has anyone not reached the hall of fame after being in the top 5 in MVP voting 8 Times, including having 3 MVP awards, and 2 second place finishes. Don't even bother looking it up, the answer is no. He should have won 4 in a row, but the media did not like him.

In Career MVP Win Shares, excluding everything from 2001 and beyond (i.e the 73 HR season and the next three), he has 5.46 career win shares. By itself that is the eight best of all time.

1575911414691.png



#4. In the Historical Baseball Abstract (published before his 73 HR year), Bill James had Barry Bonds as one of the top 5 left fielders of all time, and arguably the best. Bill James is a pretty smart guy.
 
#5. Most similar players to Barry Bonds using similarity scores before he went berserk in home runs.

1575911623259.png


I am pretty sure those guys were all Hall of Famers.

But sure, he just had a solid career up to the age of 35..
 
did you watch baseball in the 70s and 80s? Bonds lived off his dads name and then had a solid career.. the fact that guys in the 80s had better careers into their late 30s is something that changed a ton of career stats.
MVPs voting means little. if he had quit at 35 no one was saying there goes Bonds waiting to get into the HF..

I'm not a big mickey mantle fan but some people loved him. Great talent, not a great player.

Dont care what they say Bonds was not a great outfielder just OK.

Phil Rizzuto is in the HF doesnt mean he is one of the great SS either. but Bonds is more worthy than him for sure.
 
Alsacs said:
Rose wants full reinstatement so He can get paid by the Reds.
Baseball probably would allow him into the HOF if he just wanted that and not be part of the game but Rose won’t compromise. He wants all the way in and uses his HOF to try and win public opinion.
Also he did bet on the team while He was player-manager.
People say who cares if he bet on his own team but if he bet on certain games he would manage that night’s game differently and that affects your club later in the same week.
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I have a feeling he gets in after he passes away. His punishment will Be never getting to see himself get in.
 
upperdeck said:
did you watch baseball in the 70s and 80s? Bonds lived off his dads name and then had a solid career.. the fact that guys in the 80s had better careers into their late 30s is something that changed a ton of career stats.
MVPs voting means little. if he had quit at 35 no one was saying there goes Bonds waiting to get into the HF..

I'm not a big mickey mantle fan but some people loved him. Great talent, not a great player.

Dont care what they say Bonds was not a great outfielder just OK.

Phil Rizzuto is in the HF doesnt mean he is one of the great SS either. but Bonds is more worthy than him for sure.
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somebody break it to dale berra that all he needed to do was stick around for a bit and just by being Yogi's son, he wouldve won 3 MVPs.




alright...ill do it.

i know where he lives.
 
Since Marvin Miller gets in does Boras considering he's basically realigned baseball?
 
Bayside44 said:
Since Marvin Miller gets in does Boras considering he's basically realigned baseball?
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Another angle--if Bowie Kuhn and Bud Selig are in the Hall, how can you keep Marvin Miller out?
 
upperdeck said:
McGuire was a slight better version of Kingman,
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McGwire had a career On Base Percentage of .394, which is excellent
Dave Kingman had a career on base percentage of .302, which is terrible

To put that into context, over a typical season (600 Plate Appearances), McGwire reached base about 60 times more... every season. That is not "slight"
 
upperdeck said:
did you watch baseball in the 70s and 80s? Bonds lived off his dads name and then had a solid career.. the fact that guys in the 80s had better careers into their late 30s is something that changed a ton of career stats.
MVPs voting means little. if he had quit at 35 no one was saying there goes Bonds waiting to get into the HF..

I'm not a big mickey mantle fan but some people loved him. Great talent, not a great player.

Dont care what they say Bonds was not a great outfielder just OK.

Phil Rizzuto is in the HF doesnt mean he is one of the great SS either. but Bonds is more worthy than him for sure.
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Those 8 Gold Gloves Bonds won were really based upon personality, because he was so beloved by the writers, who loved his dad nearly as much.
SMH. The guy was freaking great.
 
Capt. Tuttle said:
Those 8 Gold Gloves Bonds won were really based upon personality, because he was so beloved by the writers, who loved his dad nearly as much.
SMH. The guy was freaking great.
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I also like how he claims Mickey Mantle is a great talent, but not a great player.
3 MVP awards. 3 times he was second, and 9 times in the top 5.

I won't go all out advanced stat. Just use OPS (on base + slugging) which is the most basic of more modern statistics, and is easy to understand even for old-timers.
14 years in the top 10
6 years #1
4 years #2.

And for the hell of it he is 20th all time in WAR what is it good for.
 
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bump - vote is tomorrow.

I'm a huge Yankees/Jeter fan, but almost hope he's not unanimous. If he gets 100%, that will bring out the haters and detract from the enjoyment of celebrating
 
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