3 Final Fours in 37 years - Great? Good? OK? Underachieving?

[JeremyCuse]

With all the talk about JB and if he is slowing down and nearing the end, I was curious as to how the fanbase feels about the tournament success under Coach. His 900+ career wins, BE tournament titles, BE road record, 20+wins seasons, recruiting, repeated success, are all off the charts and the reason why he is a legend and a hall of famer. But I was curious if some of the diehard fans feel a bit frustrated to see teams like Mich State, Lville, Duke etc in the final four every few years while our appearances seem to be once a decade at best. I think its clear that in the past few years we have had two of the best teams of the JB era and due to extenuiating circumstances (especially 2010) we lost out on what should have been another final four and possibly a championship. How much better would JB's record look and how would the fanbase be with a second title and another final four appearance?

 

[longislandcuse]

Underachieving with a streak of bad luck lately.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Underachieving with a streak of bad luck lately.

Any specific years in your mind where you feel the team underachieved on what could have been a final four year? To me 2005 jumps out, I honestly felt that if we could have gotten by that Vermont game somehow we were going on a long run, still haunts me.

 

[chlywtr]

I will fall in the "Good" camp. 3 FF's is nice and while pure talent sometimes doesn't equal ultimate success (see '10 and '12) all of the other aspects of a coaching career have been met and most times exceeded (for all th epoints you mention). While tournamnet sucess is nice, I believe that a stayed run of consistent achievement goes a long way when determining a program's arc over time.

JB has done a great job for the city, the University, his players and the community which makes him a figure head in a basketball world where men like him are fewer and farther between.

With all of that said, I would love to mulptiply the FF's and NC by as a big a number as possible but I bet I would still want more......so in conclusion, I think we are good in this context.

 

[Marsh01]

With all the talk about JB and if he is slowing down and nearing the end, I was curious as to how the fanbase feels about the tournament success under Coach. His 900+ career wins, BE tournament titles, BE road record, 20+wins seasons, recruiting, repeated success, are all off the charts and the reason why he is a legend and a hall of famer. But I was curious if some of the diehard fans feel a bit frustrated to see teams like Mich State, Lville, Duke etc in the final four every few years while our appearances seem to be once a decade at best. I think its clear that in the past few years we have had two of the best teams of the JB era and due to extenuiating circumstances (especially 2010) we lost out on what should have been another final four and possibly a championship. How much better would JB's record look and how would the fanbase be with a second title and another final four appearance?

My argument is this. If its all about winning titles which a lot of people here argue it is then Izzo and JB have the same amount so it doesnt really matter about the # of FF bids. I dont think people realize how hard it is to win that tournament. I mean if things broke our way JB could have 4-5 titles right now. He's been in the title game 3 times, probably would have been there in 2010 had Arinze not gotten hurt and may have been there last year had Fab not been suspended.

I wish we were in the FF more but it doesnt change my views on him or the program. In 87 we were 3 seconds from a title. 3 seconds.

 

[Madbiker]

I can still see DC clanging those free throws that would have made Keith Smart's shot irrelevant and clinched the '87 title. Think that would change a few minds and make people feel better with 2 titles?

 

[JeremyCuse]

My argument is this. If its all about winning titles which a lot of people here argue it is then Izzo and JB have the same amount so it doesnt really matter about the # of FF bids. I dont think people realize how hard it is to win that tournament. I mean if things broke our way JB could have 4-5 titles right now. He's been in the title game 3 times, probably would have been there in 2010 had Arinze not gotten hurt and may have been there last year had Fab not been suspended.

I wish we were in the FF more but it doesnt change my views on him or the program. In 87 we were 3 seconds from a title. 3 seconds.

Good points Marsh, glad to get your take. Do you think though that for MSU fans a season like we are having now there is less angst knowing that MSU can make a run to the final four and has done so with less talented teams with Izzo? I think the one issue I have with JB is that outside of 96, we havent really made a deep run that was unexpected. I know what your saying about him and Izzo havign the same amount of titles but I think the fact that MSU is always a candidate to make that final four run regardless of there regular season is something we simply dont have here, and once you make it there you never know what can happen.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I can still see DC clanging those free throws that would have made Keith Smart's shot irrelevant and clinched the '87 title. Think that would change a few minds and make people feel better with 2 titles?

I think two titles definitely would change the opinion of otherfanbases especially those in the BE ie UConn, Gtown, Lville etc. I think JB is universally loved by the SU fanbase but I think two titles woudl put him in a stratosphere no SU coach or player has ever been. Save for maybe Carmelo

 

[Fly Rodder]

Izzo consistently puts teams deep in the tourney regardless of where they were seeded - generally. Would I like to see more of that from Syracuse. Yes. Yes, I would. Does that make me a bad person?

Some of this has to do with a weakness of playing zone and zone only. The advantage of playing a zone is that over the course of a season, the percentages work and that's reflected in total wins (of which Jim Boeheim has quite a few of). It's a numbers game. However, in the post-season - in an loser-go-home game - if a team is shredding the zone, there are no options like if a team getting getting smoked in M2M could switch to a basic zone. There are adjustments that can be made, but if they can't make the adjustment (see the 5 career games SU has given up this season), it's just a slow, 40 minute death. It's a valid criticism of the zone.

If the NCAA finals were best 2 of 3 series, I think Syracuse would have far deeper runs using just zone.

 

[Marsh01]

Good points Marsh, glad to get your take. Do you think though that for MSU fans a season like we are having now there is less angst knowing that MSU can make a run to the final four and has done so with less talented teams with Izzo? I think the one issue I have with JB is that outside of 96, we havent really made a deep run that was unexpected. I know what your saying about him and Izzo havign the same amount of titles but I think the fact that MSU is always a candidate to make that final four run regardless of there regular season is something we simply dont have here, and once you make it there you never know what can happen.

I hear the argument. I really do. Izzo seems to get his teams on occasion to make that run. Still doesnt change the fact that he has only won 1 title. I thought that if that game in 2000 was played anyplace but a mile from their freaking campus we beat that team and Izzo has zero titles. I always thought the 94 team would have went to the FF had Moten not called TO against Arkansas. It just seems lately we have been really snakebit by the basketball gods. Not so much last year because it was a self inflicted bite with Fab but in 2010 which was devastating.

 

[cap2nine]

For me it's a no-brainer to put this in the "Great" category. I don't have to compare SU to other elite programs. I just consider where we'd be and what lower level of success we most certainly would have had WITHOUT JB's lifelong commitment.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I hear the argument. I really do. Izzo seems to get his teams on occasion to make that run. Still doesnt change the fact that he has only won 1 title. I thought that if that game in 2000 was played anyplace but a mile from their freaking campus we beat that team and Izzo has zero titles. I always thought the 94 team would have went to the FF had Moten not called TO against Arkansas. It just seems lately we have been really snakebit by the basketball gods. Not so much last year because it was a self inflicted bite with Fab but in 2010 which was devastating.

Good points again, agree about that 94 team, I remember that game, first and only time I have ever gotten truly emotional about an SU loss (I think my young age may have played a role). I think devestating is probably not a strong enough word to describe what happened in 2010, a final four appearance and a title would probably propelled SU in to the discussion of being a true blue blood program.

 

[jdubs30]

My argument is this. If its all about winning titles which a lot of people here argue it is then Izzo and JB have the same amount so it doesnt really matter about the # of FF bids. I dont think people realize how hard it is to win that tournament. I mean if things broke our way JB could have 4-5 titles right now. He's been in the title game 3 times, probably would have been there in 2010 had Arinze not gotten hurt and may have been there last year had Fab not been suspended.

I wish we were in the FF more but it doesnt change my views on him or the program. In 87 we were 3 seconds from a title. 3 seconds.

It's funny to me that if Keith Smart misses that out-of-balance, fading to the sideline shot, we'd have 2 and in many more people's heads be in the "Elite" category. Just shows how funny basketball can be sometimes. And horrible.

 

[dasher]

There is some luck. Jb had noithing to do with missed free throws at the end of the Indy game. He went man and Alvord never touched the ball. In 10 and 12 we had great chances. Didn't happen thanks in part to injury and suspension. We should have reached the elite 8 more.

 

[Cuseregular]

With all the talk about JB and if he is slowing down and nearing the end, I was curious as to how the fanbase feels about the tournament success under Coach. His 900+ career wins, BE tournament titles, BE road record, 20+wins seasons, recruiting, repeated success, are all off the charts and the reason why he is a legend and a hall of famer. But I was curious if some of the diehard fans feel a bit frustrated to see teams like Mich State, Lville, Duke etc in the final four every few years while our appearances seem to be once a decade at best. I think its clear that in the past few years we have had two of the best teams of the JB era and due to extenuiating circumstances (especially 2010) we lost out on what should have been another final four and possibly a championship. How much better would JB's record look and how would the fanbase be with a second title and another final four appearance?

batten down the hatches...potentially explosive topic. The answer is underachieving with respect to the tourney but overall good which is why there's still discussions/debates on a national level as to if he's a good or great coach. The overall numbers (Wins) suggest great, the break down numbers (as you've done) suggest good...or underachieving.

If he had the personal issues re attitude, motivation, simple civility/treatment of other people down better then all that translates into better results on the court is what my opinion has been forever, and then I think we're not even having this conversation.

Regardless he IS a living legend, a ly living legend to be sure, a legend whose done wonderous things for the region/community/area and obviously for the program in general. Thus he's EARNED the right to call his own shots re when its time to call it a career.

So like most of us, he's flawed but while I will stand in awe of his accomplishments, at the same time I'd like to lecture him on the importance of the little things in life (like showing basic civility to that person I wrote of last week that put the italian mulukya curse of bad karma on him and the team after JB blew him off. I'm going to call that guy and say enough is enough take the curse off for God's sake!...I'm not kidding, it's been all down hill ever since so maybe the karmists like Hackattack are right after all).

Anyway he's as mentioned he's earned the right to go out on his own terms in a glorious way, and I'm just hoping he doesn't blow that and end up as verbal version of Woody Hayes that I mentioned elsewhere where the decision is made for him. Hoping he keeps it together/pulls back a little on the attitude and/or the team makes it moot and all is well again.

 

[SU2NASA]

Any specific years in your mind where you feel the team underachieved on what could have been a final four year? To me 2005 jumps out, I honestly felt that if we could have gotten by that Vermont game somehow we were going on a long run, still haunts me.

2010 without a doubt.

 

[Marsh01]

It's funny to me that if Keith Smart misses that out-of-balance, fading to the sideline shot, we'd have 2 and in many more people's heads be in the "Elite" category. Just shows how funny basketball can be sometimes. And horrible.

I've replayed that shot in my head probably 50,000 times and it kills me to know we were that close. Someone once tried to compare it to Houston when Lorenzo Charles dunked it at the horn. Big difference was that game was tied, we were winning when Smart's shot went in.

 

[Marsh01]

Good points again, agree about that 94 team, I remember that game, first and only time I have ever gotten truly emotional about an SU loss (I think my young age may have played a role). I think devestating is probably not a strong enough word to describe what happened in 2010, a final four appearance and a title would probably propelled SU in to the discussion of being a true blue blood program.

94-95 killed me. Literally broke my freaking heart. That team was playing so well and I am certain would have made a FF run.

 

[JeremyCuse]

batten down the hatches...potentially explosive topic. The answer is underachieving which is why there's still discussions/debates on a national level as to if he's a good or great coach. The overall numbers (Wins) suggest great, the break down numbers suggest good...or underachieving.

If he had the personal issues re attitude, motivation, simple civility/treatment of other people down better then all that translates into better results on the court is what my opinion has been forever, and then I think we're not even having this conversation.

Regardless he is a living legend a ly living legend, a legend whose done wonderous things for the region/community/area and obviously for the program in general. Thus he's EARNED the right to call his own shots re when its time to call it a career.

So like most of us, he's flawed but while I will stand in awe of his accomplishments, at the same time I'd like to lecture him on the importance of the little things in life (like showing basic civility to that person I wrote of last week that put the italian mulukya curse of bad karma on him and the team after JB blew him off. I'm going to call that guy and say enough is enough take the curse off for God's sake!...I'm not kidding, it's been all down hill ever since so maybe the karmists like Hackattack are right after all).

Good post CR, I think a lot of people feel the way you do, its hard to argue that SU hasnt had some bad losses in the tourney, I am not even going to mention the nuclear meltdown/doomsday scenario we avoided last year. When you say you feel overall its probably underachieving do you look at that from a strictly tournament results perspective or do other issues come into play?

 

[CorduroyG]

considering all the regular season success we've had, i gotta go with underachieving. even in 2010 we still should have beaten butler without AO, we had that game with 4 minutes left.

 

[CorduroyG]

the moten timeout game was '95, we lost to missouri in ot in sweet 16 in '94

 

[JeremyCuse]

2010 without a doubt.

Agree about 2010 as Courdoroy mentioned even without AO, we gave that game away. Really took a while to get over that one.

 

[Tobias Funke]

I start every year with a reasonable expectation that we can be a contender. We have overachievedsome years, underachieved others, but the sum of all of the parts is fantastic, and one shot that doesnt fall makes JB a two time national Champ. Consistency is also a hig key and JB consistently puts a solid team on the court.

 

[JeremyCuse]

considering all the regular season success we've had, i gotta go with underachieving. even in 2010 we still should have beaten butler without AO, we had that game with 4 minutes left.

Not only that but the last 4 minutes played out like it was straight out of the SU collapse handbook. Butler guy hits a 3 from NBA range with the shot clock at 1, SU has two horrific turnovers, Butler hits another 3 where the shot hit the back rim bounced up to the ceiling and somehow went in, Rautins misses a wide open 3, KJ gets shoved out of the way on a putback to seal it.

 

[jdubs30]

Not only that but the last 4 minutes played out like it was straight out of the SU collapse handbook. Butler guy hits a 3 from NBA range with the shot clock at 1, SU has two horrific turnovers, Butler hits another 3 where the shot hit the back rim bounced up to the ceiling and somehow went in, Rautins misses a wide open 3, KJ gets shoved out of the way on a putback to seal it.

Let's not forget the guy taht hit that 3 shot like 15% from 3 all year.

One that really bothered me if it was us--Scottie Reynolds vs. Pitt in 08 to go the Final 4, they let him dribble the length of the court and get the game winning layup as time expired, no one even tried to step infront of him.