3 Rings 9 years

[orangeinohio]

Yes, I quoted from an article and attached the link so that anyone interested could read the entire article, indicating I'm not trying to hide anything.

Frankly, I'd be surprised too, if I thought my masking technology exceeded the detection technology, and then was told I tested positive.

And he still hasn't made good on his pledge to tell what he tested positive for, and how it happened, has he?

Facts...

 

[kirbivore]

Ortiz has completely eclipsed Edgar Martinez.
Edgar has a better career batting average but Ortiz leads him in homers, RBIs, slugging.

Beyond stats, Ortiz destroys Martinez in clutch hitting, too.
Who would you rather have on your team, especially in the playoffs? Edgar or Ortiz?

Ortiz is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

I'll take that bet. You can name the odds. He'll probably get in but there's enough smoke on the PED front and the fact that some voters aren't that keen on the DH position that he won't be first ballot.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I'm with Lester on this one - he was on Cowherd on Friday defending his teammate. Look at the numbers. You want to say he used in the past, I can buy that. His 2006 season was his best home run hitting season, but keep in mind that he was surrounded by excellent hitters in the lineup so they couldn't pitch around him. But he played 137 games this season and only hit 30 home runs. It's not like he mashed 70. Maybe it really is just finally getting in decent shape that really got him swinging the bat better than ever this year. And figuring out left field in Fenway is his friend.

 

[orangeinohio]

I'll take that bet. You can name the odds. He'll probably get in but there's enough smoke on the PED front and the fact that some voters aren't that keen on the DH position that he won't be first ballot.

The good news is that if I'm due to eat crow, there's no shortage of them in CNY.

 

[Cowtown]

... His 2006 season was his best home run hitting season, but keep in mind that he was surrounded by excellent hitters ...

As in Manny Ramirez. It's stating the obvious to point out that Ortiz' numbers were pedestrian at best until he arrived in Boston where the twice-convicted PED abuser Manny was "just being Manny." But what the heck, that's what these forum thingies are for ...

 

[dasher]

a couple of things. Yankee fans love to point fingers at ortiz, I get that. But they were the same fans cheering Andy P at the end of this past season. Second, I hear that Ortiz shouldn't make the Hall because he is a D.H.. Fair enough. Why should a closer make the Hall? Major league teams play a min. of 1458 innings. A closer pitches , what 70 innings a year. And that makes you a Hall of Famer? Who plays more, a D.H. or a closer?

 

[Crusty]

If he is clean (I feel compelled to say that after Lance), I hope he makes the hall. His achievements are worthy. AND I am a Yankee fan.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

As in Manny Ramirez. It's stating the obvious to point out that Ortiz' numbers were pedestrian at best until he arrived in Boston where the twice-convicted PED abuser Manny was "just being Manny." But what the heck, that's what these forum thingies are for ...

Again, if you have no one else on the team that can hit the ball, then you would expect Big Papi to have lower numbers. Why pitch to him at all? And yes, I believe Manny, who has been caught TWICE, probably turned Ortiz on to some supplements. But how come Manny has been caught twice and Ortiz has not? Maybe Ortiz saw his former teammate get popped twice and said, can't do what he's doing. Just a thought.

By the way, started the book today. Interesting right from the start.

 

[Cowtown]

I agree, there's a lot that currently can't be supported by fact. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence leading to a lot of innuendo. But I do know this: where there's smoke there may not always be fire, but there's certainly heat. Ortiz is on the 2003 list for a reason that's never been explained. Some other Dominican players have played the "I was careless with over-the-counter substances while I was home" card. One doesn't go from flipping burgers to Guy Fieri overnight.

Perhaps I'm growing too jaded in my advancing years, but if I know I'm clean and something like that happens to me, I'm damn sure going to clear the air. And although the MLBPA may be an obstacle (is there any doubt they're almost as bad as Selig?), I'd still find a way. But despite Ortiz' promise, ten years later that hasn't happened.

Glad you like the book, I figured with your experience it was a natural.

 

[billsin01]

Ha ha. Ortiz isn't even close.


Ty Cobb1936
Walter Johnson1936
Christy Mathewson1936
Babe Ruth1936
Honus Wagner1936
Bob Feller1962
Jackie Robinson1962
Ted Williams1966
Stan Musial1969
Sandy Koufax1972
Warren Spahn1973
Mickey Mantle1974
Ernie Banks1977
Willie Mays1979
Al Kaline1980
Bob Gibson1981
Hank Aaron (bio)1982
Frank Robinson1982
Brooks Robinson1983
Lou Brock1985
Willie McCovey1986
Willie Stargell1988
Johnny Bench1989
Carl Yastrzemski1989
Joe Morgan1990
Jim Palmer1990
Rod Carew1991
Tom Seaver1992
Reggie Jackson1993
Steve Carlton1994
Mike Schmidt1995
George Brett1999
Nolan Ryan1999
Robin Yount1999
Kirby Puckett2001
Dave Winfield2001
Ozzie Smith2002
Eddie Murray2003
Dennis Eckersley2004
Paul Molitor2004
Wade Boggs2005
Tony Gwynn2007
Cal Ripken, Jr.2007
Rickey Henderson2009

Two topics I never understand people getting riled up about:
1) Hall of Fame
2) PEDs

I just don't get it. We're really trying to compare a player like Ortiz or Derek Jeter or whoever you want to use as the example to like Ty Cobb or someone? It's completely nonsensical. And, beyond that, anyone who's had the good fortune to watch their team win the World Series knows that some of the most valuable players are those who have no shot at the Hall. Bernie Williams? He's not even on the ballot anymore. Jack Morris? Unlikely to ever get in despite throwing 247,000 innings in his career. It's a cool museum but, in reality, the Hall is no better than one of those CBS list of the top 100 college hoops players or talk radio arguments about otto graham vs. Phil Simms.

As for PEDs, do fans really care that these guys are going to whatever extent they can to be the best possible players they can be? Really?

Drives me crazy.

 

[billsin01]

Actually, he's dropped a shitload of weight. Precipitously, as it were. And he's not even in the same chapter as the names on JJR's list above.

ps: I mean no offense to you personally oio, I just don't see it. Then again, I am a Yankees fan, so that's probably a factor as well.

I love you comparing Ortiz to Ernie Banks. As if a baseball player in 2013 is playing in the same league as a guy playing in the 50s/60s. Or Ty Cobb. Or Jim Palmer.

 

[NailstheCusefan12]

Somehow Daniel Tosh has managed to capture my feelings on PED use, the HOF, and the record books. This clip is hilarious.
http://www.comedycentral.com/video-clips/mhk23z/stand-up-daniel-tosh--soccer-and-baseball

 

[billsin01]

Yes, I quoted from an article and attached the link so that anyone interested could read the entire article, indicating I'm not trying to hide anything.

Frankly, I'd be surprised too, if I thought my masking technology exceeded the detection technology, and then was told I tested positive.

And he still hasn't made good on his pledge to tell what he tested positive for, nor how it happened, has he?

edit: I think there's a very strong chance he's using/used some kind of PED, and you think he's as pure as the driven snow. We'll leave it at that. If it wasn't for Bud Selig, we'd all be past this by now.

This wouldn't have anything to do with his 1.096 OPS vs. the Yanks for his career would it?

 

[Cowtown]

I love you comparing Ortiz to Ernie Banks. As if a baseball player in 2013 is playing in the same league as a guy playing in the 50s/60s. Or Ty Cobb. Or Jim Palmer.

Please find and reference the post in which I've mentioned, even tangentially, Ernie Banks. Or Ty Cobb. Or Jim Palmer.

 

[billsin01]

Please find and reference the post in which I've mentioned, even tangentially, Ernie Banks. Or Ty Cobb. Or Jim Palmer.

And he's not even in the same chapter as the names on JJR's list above.

'He's not in the same chapter as the guys on JJR's post' -- that post include the guys like Banks or Cobb or Palmer or whatever names you want to use. I'm assuming you're saying he's nowhere near the players they were. I just feel like arguments like this are completely inane. You can't compare baseball today to baseball in the mid-90s/early 2000s, let alone baseball in the decades before.

 

[dasher]

Please find and reference the post in which I've mentioned, even tangentially, Ernie Banks. Or Ty Cobb. Or Jim Palmer.

all you ever do is knock Jim palmer. I mean, you have to read between the lines I admit. The other day you were talking about syracuse big men. A clear shot at Jim Palmer.

 

[billsin01]

all you ever do is knock Jim palmer. I mean, you have to read between the lines I admit. The other day you were talking about syracuse big men. A clear shot at Jim Palmer.

He mentioned every guy in JJR's list of first-ballot guys. Jim Palmer is one of them. If you'd rather use someone else, I'm fine with it, but he pretty clearly referenced all of them in regard to Ortiz.

 

[JJReddawg]

'He's not in the same chapter as the guys on JJR's post' -- that post include the guys like Banks or Cobb or Palmer or whatever names you want to use. I'm assuming you're saying he's nowhere near the players they were. I just feel like arguments like this are completely inane. You can't compare baseball today to baseball in the mid-90s/early 2000s, let alone baseball in the decades before.

The best part of baseball is the fact that you can compare players of different eras.

 

[billsin01]

The best part of baseball is the fact that you can compare players of different eras.

Huh? First of all, this is what you love most about the game? Secondly, how in the world can you do this? Ty Cobb didn't play against black players. What about the influx of latin and asian born players? Differences in mound heights, pitch counts, bullpen usage, technology, compensation (at least to the extent that players are given access to first-class transportation, workout facilities, film rooms, and, of course, not required to work another job in the offseason), etc. The list goes on and on. But even something as simple as having video of your previous at-bat -- I heard an interview with an MLB executive on the MLB network who said it's impossible to overstate the difference in the game with the growth instant-access video.

It's simply absurd to compare a guy like Ted Williams or Lou Gehrig to a modern-day player.

 

[Cowtown]

'He's not in the same chapter as the guys on JJR's post' -- that post include the guys like Banks or Cobb or Palmer or whatever names you want to use. I'm assuming you're saying he's nowhere near the players they were. I just feel like arguments like this are completely inane. You can't compare baseball today to baseball in the mid-90s/early 2000s, let alone baseball in the decades before.

The post to which I referred was a listing of first ballot HOF inductees. I made no direct comparison or reference to any specific individual. I did, however, assert that Ortiz does not belong on the same strata as that magnificent group of players, and thus does not warrant mention among of players their standing. Nor is he anywhere near close, IMHO.

 

[Cowtown]

all you ever do is knock Jim palmer. I mean, you have to read between the lines I admit. The other day you were talking about syracuse big men. A clear shot at Jim Palmer.

Hello? In the first place, I've always been a huge Jim Palmer fan. When I played basketball in college during the early 70's, I wore the number 22 because at the time he was my favorite player in any sport.

For my money, David Ortiz couldn't oil Jim Palmer's glove. Or even his own - not that he ever used one much.

What does "Syracuse big men" have to do with anything in a discussion of first ballot HOF baseball players? Or maybe you've just been into a few more beers tonight than I have?

 

[JJReddawg]

It's simply absurd to compare a guy like Ted Williams or Lou Gehrig to a modern-day player.

The last player to hit over .400 in the regular season was Williams, so yeah I guess it is hard to compare anyone to him. And wasn't Gehrig's consecutive games streak more impressive than Ripken's streak given todays modern day conveniences?

 

[billsin01]

The post to which I referred was a listing of first ballot HOF inductees. I made no direct comparison or reference to any specific individual. I did, however, assert that Ortiz does not belong on the same strata as that magnificent group of players, and thus does not warrant mention among of players their standing. Nor is he anywhere near close, IMHO.

I was just picking names randomly from that list -- the point being it's simply difficult to compare players from different eras. Is Papi a first-ballot guy? Probably not, but that's largely because of people making comparisons to guys who played decades ago, which I find absurd.

 

[billsin01]

The last player to hit over .400 in the regular season was Williams, so yeah I guess it is hard to compare anyone to him. And wasn't Gehrig's consecutive games streak more impressive than Ripken's streak given todays modern day conveniences?

Sure, I suppose. The Williams case is an interesting one because everyone can agree it's a phenomenal accomplishment and ridiculous to even comprehend. But it was also 70+ years ago. The game and, of course, the world has changed so much that I'm just not sure it's possible to try and compare and contrast the careers of williams and guys like tony gwynn or jeter or whomever.

 

[dasher]

Hello? In the first place, I've always been a huge Jim Palmer fan. When I played basketball in college during the early 70's, I wore the number 22 because at the time he was my favorite player in any sport.

For my money, David Ortiz couldn't oil Jim Palmer's glove. Or even his own - not that he ever used one much.

What does "Syracuse big men" have to do with anything in a discussion of first ballot HOF baseball players? Or maybe you've just been into a few more beers tonight than I have?

Geez...I was obviously joking since I have never seen you write about Jim palmer. Cripes cowtown!!!!! The whole you have to read between the lines?????? How could anything about syracuse big men have anything to do with Jim palmer?