A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Making the I81 Decision...

[IthacaMatt]

Why does Syracuse need a $3B tunnel? That's seems like an exorbitant waste of money and time for a major project that a small city doesn't need.

What's the problem with revamping the current I-81 so it's up to standards and extends the useful life?

I think a giant catapault that launches cars South to North over the city would be the best option.

The biggest problems are two - (1) it would only last for another 50 years and then we get to do this over again, and (2) it would take away even more valuable land in downtown Syracuse. I read a study that said 27 buildings would have to be torn down to make way for a lane expansion. That's a lot of eminent domain, and it leaves a lot of land underneath an overhead highway that will generate zero tax revenues.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Syracuse is a medium sized metro area...and the crossroads of Upstate NY. A tunnel of limited length could be quite beneficial to run through traffic through the city center. If the freeway was built going around the western suburbs and connected to I-90 and on up to the BVille area a tunnel could be avoided. If they could put it in (tunnel) and keep I-81 up for awhile it would help traffic.

The problem with the tunnel, Mark, is that the land where it would be located is adjacent to the Inner Harbor. The water table is low at that point, and the whole tunnel would require full time pumping apparatus and support equipment to be viable.

 

[BlazeOrange]

I'd like to believe this to be true but Miner's on her way out and after watching DeFrancisco during the open forum at Henninger, it was clear he is pushing for the tunnel.

Could he strategically be pushing for an option that he knows won't be selected? Whichever option is ultimately chosen will be unpopular with some and the resulting construction will cause disruption and complaints from most everyone. Might be politically safer to not be aligned with the winning choice, then be able to say "I tried to do it differently. If ___ had only listened to me, we wouldn't be having these problems..."

 

[sutomcat]

The problem with the tunnel, Mark, is that the land where it would be located is adjacent to the Inner Harbor. The water table is low at that point, and the whole tunnel would require full time pumping apparatus and support equipment to be viable.

Are you certain about that?

I haven't attended the recent meetings but the last proposals I read indicated that the path of the proposed tunnel would be roughly the same as the existing I-81 right of way.

It would be similar to the boulevard proposal, starting somewhere around MLK Blvd/Adams St, ending around the I-81 intersection with I-690.

The inner harbor would be at most 4 or 5 blocks from the tunnel.

 

[TexanMark]

Are you certain about that?

I haven't attended the recent meetings but the last proposals I read indicated that the path of the proposed tunnel would be roughly the same as the existing I-81 right of way.

It would be similar to the boulevard proposal, starting somewhere around MLK Blvd/Adams St, ending around the I-81 intersection with I-690.

The inner harbor would be at most 4 or 5 blocks from the tunnel.

This...a tunnel should be short as possible but do the job. Start somewhere near Raynor and end close to I690

 

[General20]

I've never heard that the high water tables are due to the proximity of the Inner Harbor, but high water tables are a real problem with digging a tunnel.

Pretty much every expert agrees that the community grid is the best option, but some local people are looking at the fact that the federal government will be footing the bill and thinking why not go with the expensive tunnel option if it shuts up a few loud mouths.

Personally, I find the idea of wasting multiple billions creating an unnecessary tunnel distasteful, but anything is better than rebuilding an elevated highway.

I would like to see the new tunnel study, one plus for the tunnel may be that they have to dig up a lot of water and sewage lines, so we might get some new infrastructure out of the deal.

 

[KellySyracuse]

The problem with the tunnel, Mark, is that the land where it would be located is adjacent to the Inner Harbor. The water table is low at that point, and the whole tunnel would require full time pumping apparatus and support equipment to be viable.

people also forget where Basin St. is now that connects to State St. used to be a small river. Middle Ages Brewery has a great map of the city that has to be from the late 1800's, early 1900's

 

[KellySyracuse]

Could he strategically be pushing for an option that he knows won't be selected? Whichever option is ultimately chosen will be unpopular with some and the resulting construction will cause disruption and complaints from most everyone. Might be politically safer to not be aligned with the winning choice, then be able to say "I tried to do it differently. If ___ had only listened to me, we wouldn't be having these problems..."

yes, that is a great point. Cuomo is not going for a newer, wider and higher viaduct so that is off the table. And thank god for that. DeFrancisco is trying to appease all sides and likely already knows which plan is going to be selected. I also think that DeFrancisco is more than miffed over the cost of the Tappan Zee as he brought that up multiple times during the forum I attended with his point being if NYS taxpayers can spend 20+ billion for a new bridge they can afford 3 billion for a tunnel in Syr.

81 is at the end of it's useful life, a decision needs to be made soon.

 

[xc84]

people also forget where Basin St. is now that connects to State St. used to be a small river. Middle Ages Brewery has a great map of the city that has to be from the late 1800's, early 1900's

Underneath where Syracuse Savings Bank building is, there is a large cool aquifer that was used to cool the building... they may still use it...not sure...but they did in the early 80s.

 

[Fly Rodder]

the existing 81 is not compliant with today's federal safety standards, if they replace it with a new viaduct it would be taller and wider and 27 buildings would have to be razed to make way for it. Including some historic property on E. Genesee St.

And you're still routing through traffic in the middle of an urban area for reasons unrelated to the people who actually live there.

 

[KellySyracuse]

And you're still routing through traffic in the middle of an urban area for reasons unrelated to the people who actually live there.

yes, exactly that. But the counter argument is that we need to make sure Skaneateles doesn't get increased truck traffic, the Pilot gas station doesn't lose business and Dewitt does not have to struggle with increased traffic/noise on 481. I wish I was kidding but I'm not, and those folks along with the entire county legislature have the senator's ear. Ryan McMahon the chairman and Syracuse representative can go fly a kite for the lack of vision he has for the city.

 

[retro44]

The problem with the tunnel, Mark, is that the land where it would be located is adjacent to the Inner Harbor. The water table is low at that point, and the whole tunnel would require full time pumping apparatus and support equipment to be viable.

I was working in Boston in '01 and I can tell you the Dig is pumping 25,000 gallons of water around the clock that is salt water. Boston was built up on man made islands when it was expanding. Now I can't remember if that was in a minute or hour but it's pumping huge amounts of water with multiple back ups. We will never see that volume here. I am looking at an option to go out there shortly on another piping job.

 

[retro44]

Underneath where Syracuse Savings Bank building is, there is a large cool aquifer that was used to cool the building... they may still use it...not sure...but they did in the early 80s.

A few years ago there was talk of bring in a 48 inch pipeline from ontario to cool all the buildings in downtown.
Cornell is using Cayuga lake to cool it's buildings today

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I was working in Boston in '01 and I can tell you the Dig is pumping 25,000 gallons of water around the clock that is salt water. Boston was built up on man made islands when it was expanding. Now I can't remember if that was in a minute or hour but it's pumping huge amounts of water with multiple back ups. We will never see that volume here. I am looking at an option to go out there shortly on another piping job.

16 million gallons a year.

That's over 40,000 gal a day.

Big Dig leaks money: Millions spent to pump water

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I'd like to believe this to be true but Miner's on her way out and after watching DeFrancisco during the open forum at Henninger, it was clear he is pushing for the tunnel.

And no is NO FRIEND of Congel.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Are you certain about that?

I haven't attended the recent meetings but the last proposals I read indicated that the path of the proposed tunnel would be roughly the same as the existing I-81 right of way.

It would be similar to the boulevard proposal, starting somewhere around MLK Blvd/Adams St, ending around the I-81 intersection with I-690.

The inner harbor would be at most 4 or 5 blocks from the tunnel.

I'm not saying it would be NEXT TO the Inner Harbor. Yes, it would stay in the same footprint (but noticeably wider). It's the depth that's the problem. The water table is low there. We're close to the lake. They would need pumping stations to keep it clear from ground water. And then you have the problem of all that water run-off, about a half mile from the waste treatment plant.

 

[Toga]

Some really neat laser shows in the tunnel would be cool.

 

[sutomcat]

I'm not saying it would be NEXT TO the Inner Harbor. Yes, it would stay in the same footprint (but noticeably wider). It's the depth that's the problem. The water table is low there. We're close to the lake. They would need pumping stations to keep it clear from ground water. And then you have the problem of all that water run-off, about a half mile from the waste treatment plant.

Where to start?

It isn't close to the lake. The proposed tunnel would end at roughly the 600 block of Erie Blvd East. According to Google, that is over 2 miles from Onondaga Lake.

Your concerns about water runoff would be relevant if we were talking about an elevated highway or a boulevard but we are talking about a tunnel. There is no runoff in a tunnel by definition.

I don't know how deep the water table is where the tunnel is proposed but from what I have read, when the DEC evaluated this option, they looked at a tunnel that is considerably deeper than the one currently proposed (as well as a couple of other elaborate and enormously expensive options).

I don't have any problem with calling on the DEC to do their job and give each option a fair and impartial evaluation.

People trying to compare the water situation for the Big Dig tunnels to the proposed tunnel in Syracuse are off base. This is a much different situation. This tunnel would not be well below sea level, next to or even under the ocean.

Any engineers with real knowledge willing to weigh in with their opinions?

 

[xc84]

Downtown Syracuse built on a swamp

 

[OttoMets]

I've never heard that the high water tables are due to the proximity of the Inner Harbor, but high water tables are a real problem with digging a tunnel.

Pretty much every expert agrees that the community grid is the best option, but some local people are looking at the fact that the federal government will be footing the bill and thinking why not go with the expensive tunnel option if it shuts up a few loud mouths.

Personally, I find the idea of wasting multiple billions creating an unnecessary tunnel distasteful, but anything is better than rebuilding an elevated highway.

I would like to see the new tunnel study, one plus for the tunnel may be that they have to dig up a lot of water and sewage lines, so we might get some new infrastructure out of the deal.

That's what some legislators think, but this wouldn't be a cut-and-cover tunnel because of the water table. So there wouldn't be comprehensive replacement of utilities in the corridor.

A tunnel is useless to virtually every constituency but one: the owner of the mall on the lake, who wants cars from Pennsylvania to have unsignalized access to his front door. Putting aside the fact that Syracuse is a small city with no need for capacity improvements and no reasonable means of paying the enormous long-term maintenance costs of operating a tunnel, every tunnel plan ignores the local commuting needs: there's no realistic provision for a) an I-81/I-690 interchange or b) University Hill and downtown on- and off-ramps for I-81, because the expressway will necessarily be 200 feet below ground in that area. It's being proposed as, essentially, a driveway to the mall, public be damned.

 

[OttoMets]

yes, exactly that. But the counter argument is that we need to make sure Skaneateles doesn't get increased truck traffic, the Pilot gas station doesn't lose business and Dewitt does not have to struggle with increased traffic/noise on 481. I wish I was kidding but I'm not, and those folks along with the entire county legislature have the senator's ear. Ryan McMahon the chairman and Syracuse representative can go fly a kite for the lack of vision he has for the city.

He's a dead-eyed scumbag.

He's single-handedly blocking attempts to build bicycle lanes around the east side of the university because area landlords -- who use this public space as a private amenity, for their tenants to park cars for free -- have him in their pocket.

And, yes, the lack of vision thing is a problem for all these representatives.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I don't know how deep the water table is

I'd probably look into before wedding myself to an opinion that the engineers who previously evaluated the tunnel option are morons.

Any engineers with real knowledge willing to weigh in with their opinions?

They already did and they stated the a tunnel option is too expensive and not feasible.

 

[OttoMets]

Where to start?

It isn't close to the lake. The proposed tunnel would end at roughly the 600 block of Erie Blvd East. According to Google, that is over 2 miles from Onondaga Lake.

Your concerns about water runoff would be relevant if we were talking about an elevated highway or a boulevard but we are talking about a tunnel. There is no runoff in a tunnel by definition.

I don't know how deep the water table is where the tunnel is proposed but from what I have read, when the DEC evaluated this option, they looked at a tunnel that is considerably deeper than the one currently proposed (as well as a couple of other elaborate and enormously expensive options).

I don't have any problem with calling on the DEC to do their job and give each option a fair and impartial evaluation.

People trying to compare the water situation for the Big Dig tunnels to the proposed tunnel in Syracuse are off base. This is a much different situation. This tunnel would not be well below sea level, next to or even under the ocean.

Any engineers with real knowledge willing to weigh in with their opinions?

Not an engineer, but the water table is between 5 and 10 feet from street level in the Almond Street corridor. And bedrock is 200 feet down. And the water is pretty high in salinity content.

It's not near an ocean, but it shares a lot of the same characteristics.

 

[KellySyracuse]

That's what some legislators think, but this wouldn't be a cut-and-cover tunnel because of the water table. So there wouldn't be comprehensive replacement of utilities in the corridor.

A tunnel is useless to virtually every constituency but one: the owner of the mall on the lake, who wants cars from Pennsylvania to have unsignalized access to his front door. Putting aside the fact that Syracuse is a small city with no need for capacity improvements and no reasonable means of paying the enormous long-term maintenance costs of operating a tunnel, every tunnel plan ignores the local commuting needs: there's no realistic provision for a) an I-81/I-690 interchange or b) University Hill and downtown on- and off-ramps for I-81, because the expressway will necessarily be 200 feet below ground in that area. It's being proposed as, essentially, a driveway to the mall, public be damned.

and think about it, Syracuse University that has been in existence for over 100 years will be most affected by any decision that is made. But somehow Cheesecake Factory's access to free advertising to Rt81 motorists is more important than one of the largest employers in the county.

 

[oldpinepoint]

That's what some legislators think, but this wouldn't be a cut-and-cover tunnel because of the water table. So there wouldn't be comprehensive replacement of utilities in the corridor.

A tunnel is useless to virtually every constituency but one: the owner of the mall on the lake, who wants cars from Pennsylvania to have unsignalized access to his front door. Putting aside the fact that Syracuse is a small city with no need for capacity improvements and no reasonable means of paying the enormous long-term maintenance costs of operating a tunnel, every tunnel plan ignores the local commuting needs: there's no realistic provision for a) an I-81/I-690 interchange or b) University Hill and downtown on- and off-ramps for I-81, because the expressway will necessarily be 200 feet below ground in that area. It's being proposed as, essentially, a driveway to the mall, public be damned.

I'm actually curious how many people from Pennsylvania actually go to Destiny. I would think the King Of Prussia mall would be closer but I'm to lazy to google map it. All I know is that The tunnel is a dumb idea meant to appease all parties however it's a waste of money in a city like Syracuse. If the city was booming and there were lots of industry's coming in then I might see it. But Syracuse is a city that can't get out of its own way. Opportunities to correct wrongs are wasted because people don't like change. Like others have said, we lack vision and have politicians that are cowards.