A good system trumps talent at this level, IMO

[rrlbees]

Dont you think Hackett as our OC makes more than Toledo OC, unless Hackett isnt being paid as an OC, isn't a real OC and is just Doug's puppet?

Yea, good question, he may. I wouldn't be surprised by the answer either way. I just figure that even though SU pays more for coacjes, that the Toledo guy may make more based just on experience and years coaching at the college level.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Yea, good question, he may. I wouldn't be surprised by the answer either way. I just figure that even though SU pays more for coacjes, that the Toledo guy may make more based just on experience and years coaching at the college level.

Agreed, guy is building a nice rersume for sure, he won't bet there much longer, unless it's as the HC, the dismantled Temple last week...

Mount Union background doesn't hurt, I remember watching Garcone when he was at Mount Union, holy talk about men among boys

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm glad people are starting to make some noise about this.

Agree, in college football system > talent. This is why I get so frustrated that so many seem to be ok making excuses for the trainwreck of an offense we trot out.

Agree, Marrone could really use a college minded OC from a program able to use deficient talent effectively.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'm glad people are starting to make some noise about this.

Agree, in college football system > talent. This is why I get so frustrated that so many seem to be ok making excuses for the trainwreck of an offense we trot out.

Agree, Marrone could really use a college minded OC from a program able to use deficient talent effectively.

It makes you relevant versus most teams at the end, top talent like BAMA, LSU, etc trumps everything but for Syracuse we need an appropriate scheme that works in the college football. Our path to being average on offense is a college scheme, I have 10 years of bad offense for this program that proves my point. I would really just like to see Kinder for 2 series on Saturday just to see what they do with him, I am not asking for him to replace Nassib by any means

 

[orangecuse]

Marrone is simply making this too hard, IMO. Outside of the factories, look at the College qb's they are almost all kids that can run as well, may not be prolific passers but they can move as well.. Dual threat Doug, geeze how nice would a draw or a option play be once in awhile as well. DAMIT WE HAVE ******* SUCKED ON OFFENSE FOR 10 YEARS!!! What. 10 ******* YEARS with these chicken **** offenses, what s wrong with these ******* people. sorry for the rant

That said, has anyone read Leach's book, funny dude, really liked it. I know I know, all you dancing nancies get upset.( Insert 690 west post, that he is a bad man here) and he locked some spoiled brat in a equipment room for awhile but his book is a good read

Couldn't agree more with this.

SU needs to find its niche...again. Implement a system that takes full advantage of their unique situation, an indoor on campus domed stadium. Establish an atmosphere of fun & exciting brand of ball that will only further attract many additional outstanding student athletes. As many have stated, SU's obvious/various challenges prevents them from consistently landing 4-5 star/factory school type recruits, however, with the most optimal system in place, I think SU can attain considerable success, and, ultimately, finding their seat on the bus in today's world of college football...

 

[All4SU]

I think HCDM has stated from the beginning that he will adapt the "system" to the players, not the other way around. No one likes the "m" word ("multiple" for those newbies in attendance), but I think that's the system. And I think what you see is based on what we have right now. That's not to say that coaching/player mistakes aren't made, or that execution couldn't improve. But it is what it is.

 

[kingottoiii]

I think HCDM has stated from the beginning that he will adapt the "system" to the players, not the other way around. No one likes the "m" word ("multiple" for those newbies in attendance), but I think that's the system. And I think what you see is based on what we have right now. That's not to say that coaching/player mistakes aren't made, or that execution couldn't improve. But it is what it is.

Well this year's squad says to spread it out. Pass to set up the run. Instead we are trying to be a power running team. So he isn't holding to that. When your OC says we are a running team and will be stubborn with it, then you are not adapting.

 

[Czar]

This thread makes me so happy to see. Completely agree with most everything written here, we really need to get any and all NFL thinking out of the coaching staff, because it doesn't matter a bit for what we're trying to do.

Actually let me throw a name out there, a guy who is looking to get back into coaching and, while we would be a stepping stone, could use us to vault him back into the game.

Mike Leach anyone?

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Couldn't agree more with this.

SU needs to find its niche...again. Implement a system that takes full advantage of their unique situation, an indoor on campus domed stadium. Establish an atmosphere of fun & exciting brand of ball that will only further attract many additional outstanding student athletes. As many have stated, SU's obvious/various challenges prevents them from consistently landing 4-5 star/factory school type recruits, however, with the most optimal system in place, I think SU can attain considerable success, and, ultimately, finding their seat on the bus in today's world of college football...

In Kinder, Broyld, and Hunt, we need to find this guy and I think we will, we have put to much emphasis on having to make 100 reads, check offs, precision passes, etc. Get a decent running game and a QB that can make plays with his feet and I think people could be shocked as to how open some receivers can be

 

[OrangePA]

too many MAC teams moving the football versus BCS competition to think otherwise. It gets you in the game. I am not saying it allows Syracuse to compete with Alabama however the fact that people are praying in here to win 2 conference games in a **** conference leads me to think that we aren't getting it done. That simply isn't get enough. Now, I am not getting all crazy or anything, but I think Marrone may need to bring in a new OC after the season if need be.. We cant rely on white knuckling every game out there. It should not be as difficult as he is making it. I am not asking for a miracle, just average proudction and this is year 3. At what point does he **** can his system? I hate the hybrid ****, I think he needs to overhaul this thing because we lack such an identity right now, one game run, next game pass. If he needs workhorse running back then great, go find one or he has to play Smith and Moore and use Bailey differently.

Doug, I love the job you have done but your offense doesn't know whether to **** or wind its watch right now and you and Kid N Play are at the helm right now. I also don't understand the coaching fraternity, why do coache's sons get the keys to the kingdom so much easier.. We have a guy that went from watching film for the Bills to OC.. I prefer somebody who has cut their teeth at a lower level. I could make an argument that a guy like Brian Angelichio is much better qualified than Can't Hackett. At least Angelichio can recruit.

In addition, if Doug is going to be here real long term he will need to cut assistants etc, whcih he has shown that he is willing to do, but he seems to bejoined at the hip with Can't Hackett

I suspect that the offense is limited by the feet of our QB.

And I believe that if you take the five best players from each MAC team and put them together, you have a strong BCS contender.

 

[rrlbees]

I suspect that the offense is limited by the feet of our QB.

And I believe that if you take the five best players from each MAC team and put them together, you have a strong BCS contender.

Hey, you didn't stop by the tailgate on Saturday did you?

There you go.

 

[Millhouse]

I suspect that the offense is limited by the feet of our QB.

And I believe that if you take the five best players from each MAC team and put them together, you have a strong BCS contender.

thing is, there's nothing wrong with nassib's feet. it's the design of the offense. nfl. can't have your qb taking hits, egad! on the other hand, marrone recruited broyld and hunt... but he also recruited miller. who the heck knows what he really wants to do

keenum, jones, geno smith, weeden, foles, none of those guys are running the ball. ain't no pro style talk with any of them

 

[billsin01]

I think HCDM has stated from the beginning that he will adapt the "system" to the players, not the other way around. No one likes the "m" word ("multiple" for those newbies in attendance), but I think that's the system. And I think what you see is based on what we have right now. That's not to say that coaching/player mistakes aren't made, or that execution couldn't improve. But it is what it is.

I suspect that the offense is limited by the feet of our QB.

I don't buy the "we don't have the players" or the "QB is limited" arguments. I acknowledge we could be more talented across the board and I'm far from crowning Nassib an all-american. But Nassib can move a little and didn't he run the wishbone in high school? I'm not saying it would be like Kinder or Broyld or Hunt, but it seems he could move enough to keep people honest.

And while we're not exceptionally talented, we have a couple decent WRs, a decent TE, a solid RB, a solid veteran qb and 4 returning starters on the OL. We should be getting a pretty good glimpse of whatever the Saints' offense is by now. And, to be honest, I'd settle for just having something to hang their hats on. We have neither.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

thing is, there's nothing wrong with nassib's feet. it's the design of the offense. nfl. can't have your qb taking hits, egad! on the other hand, marrone recruited broyld and hunt... but he also recruited miller. who the heck knows what he really wants to do

keenum, jones, geno smith, weeden, foles, none of those guys are running the ball. ain't no pro style talk with any of them

Foles couldn't outrun Marrone, there is all sorts of alternatives for a productive offense, we just choose not to pursue them... I just think it's the coaching and the nfl scheme, it's never going to work here.

 

[OrangePA]

I think HCDM has stated from the beginning that he will adapt the "system" to the players, not the other way around. No one likes the "m" word ("multiple" for those newbies in attendance), but I think that's the system. And I think what you see is based on what we have right now. That's not to say that coaching/player mistakes aren't made, or that execution couldn't improve. But it is what it is.

Every college coach I hear refers to multiple offensive systems or defensive systems.

The abhorrent "M" word thing is nothing more than another attempt to justify the groundless anti-Coach Pasqualoni sentiment that dominates this board and has dominated the board for years.

That's all.

 

[OrangePA]

I don't buy the "we don't have the players" or the "QB is limited" arguments. I acknowledge we could be more talented across the board and I'm far from crowning Nassib an all-american. But Nassib can move a little and didn't he run the wishbone in high school? I'm not saying it would be like Kinder or Broyld or Hunt, but it seems he could move enough to keep people honest.

And while we're not exceptionally talented, we have a couple decent WRs, a decent TE, a solid RB, a solid veteran qb and 4 returning starters on the OL. We should be getting a pretty good glimpse of whatever the Saints' offense is by now. And, to be honest, I'd settle for just having something to hang their hats on. We have neither.

Nassib ran a Wing T offense in HS.

He does not have athletic feet. He does not make a defense pay for an overaggressive pass rush. He is not a threat to run a QB draw or an option series.

And you hit it - I do not think he keeps defenses honest with his feet. No need to scout him.

I love the guy - he is bright and has a reasonable arm.

But he is not what will take this program to the next level.

 

[OrangePA]

Hey, you didn't stop by the tailgate on Saturday did you?

There you go.

No.

And I knew that if I didn't tap your shoulder we were doomed.

My girlfriend had an issue and that delayed me by about one hour.

I had to run to my seats to see the KO!

I was ticked off about it and will never let it happen again.
Sorry - my fault.

 

[billsin01]

Nassib ran a Wing T offense in HS.

He does not have athletic feet. He does not make a defense pay for an overaggressive pass rush. He is not a threat to run a QB draw or an option series.

And you hit it - I do not think he keeps defenses honest with his feet. No need to scout him.

I love the guy - he is bright and has a reasonable arm.

But he is not what will take this program to the next level.

We have zero designed runs for him so no, he doesn't keep defenses honest. I mean, I'm generally with you in your evaluation. and no, he won't take us to the next level, per se. But he's certainly capable of leading a more productive offense than this.

 

[billsin01]

Every college coach I hear refers to multiple offensive systems or defensive systems.

The abhorrent "M" word thing is nothing more than another attempt to justify the groundless anti-Coach Pasqualoni sentiment that dominates this board and has dominated the board for years.

That's all.

So a bunch of football coaches using a term over and over again? Great. How is that any different than all the coaches saying they're looking for kids with high character (read: talent) or the talking heads constantly telling us that speed is the difference in every game won or lost? Or that intangibles are extremely important?

Yes there is anti-P sentiment here. I get it. And he always used multiple. But, speaking for myself, it drives me crazy b/c it has no meaning. When you hear "spread offense" you know what people are talking about. Multiple has zero meaning.

 

[OrangePA]

So a bunch of football coaches using a term over and over again? Great. How is that any different than all the coaches saying they're looking for kids with high character (read: talent) or the talking heads constantly telling us that speed is the difference in every game won or lost? Or that intangibles are extremely important?

Yes there is anti-P sentiment here. I get it. And he always used multiple. But, speaking for myself, it drives me crazy b/c it has no meaning. When you hear "spread offense" you know what people are talking about. Multiple has zero meaning.

The reference is clearly a term of art.

It has meaning. It is not a throw-away word but refers to an approach that incorporates more than one scheme.

 

[OrangePA]

quote="Millhouse, post: 34261"]thing is, there's nothing wrong with nassib's feet. it's the design of the offense. nfl. can't have your qb taking hits, egad! on the other hand, marrone recruited broyld and hunt... but he also recruited miller. who the heck knows what he really wants to do

keenum, jones, geno smith, weeden, foles, none of those guys are running the ball. ain't no pro style talk with any of them[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

I don't think one can reasonably compare Geno Smith's feet to Nassib's feet - not even close.

I don't know the other QBs your post references.

 

[OrangePA]

Well this year's squad says to spread it out. Pass to set up the run. Instead we are trying to be a power running team. So he isn't holding to that. When your OC says we are a running team and will be stubborn with it, then you are not adapting.

I suspect that he is adapting.

 

[Millhouse]

holgorsen has smith in the pocket this year. he's not running at all. the other guys are at houston, oklahoma, arizona, oklahoma state throwing for a zillion yards and winning. you should check them out!

 

[Czar]

Look at the Top 10 offenses in the country. Almost all either were directly coached by Holgorsen or have someone taught by Holgorsen running them.

 

[OrangePA]

holgorsen has smith in the pocket this year. he's not running at all. the other guys are at houston, oklahoma, arizona, oklahoma state throwing for a zillion yards and winning. you should check them out!

So, you feel that Ryan Nassib could run the Oklahoma offense.

You could be right.

The problem is that he is not at Oklahoma.

I know you love "systems" - especially those that throw the ball a lot.

You and I have always disagreed however about the impact of talent.

Talent, in my view, trumps systems.

It begins and ends with talent.

Coach Mac was a lousy coach with poor talent and a very good coach with very good talent.

P was very good with very good talent and mediocre with mediocre talent.

Very few of these guys are magicians - they can only do so much with what they have.

Marrone I suspect is using a system that best exploits what Ryan Nassib can do.

If Ryan and Charlie were to get hurt, I suspect that Marrone would run a different system to accomodate the talents of JFK.